SET12
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I just woke up SET 12, up late listening
to re capped E/V Sentry III's (They sound like chit at the moment) I
need some coffee in me, I will come back later, when I wake upChris
It
doesn't surprise me Chris! There really are only a hand full of caps
that are really, really speacial IMO.Chris I worked all night,
so I have to get to sleep! I won't be up till after 7pm, Myself I have
not been satisfied with typical caps you might check this site out! It
might open your eyes!Right now there is a cap brand that is an
unbelievable value one that cost 5 times less than the $150 1uf Duelunds
I use for my mids called AmpOhm but they went out of business and some
of the stock is available yet. I just bought a pair for my amps and
haven't installed them yet and I'm thinking of doing a set for my
crossovers as well to try.Here's the site
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
And
if your speakers are using iron cores I feel for you as they just plain
gag me! or if they are using tiny air cores as well, my point is
inductors are just as audible as caps.Read Inductor FAQ's at the
bottom of this site! I agree with every word he says!http://www.northcreekmusic.com/COILS.html
The nice thing about my networks is I can change parts in
minutes or seconds even.SET12
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Thank you John,
I would think George at North Creek has his act together as thats all he did was voicing and designing speakers
The work has been some of the most pleasurable in all my Audio years. It has also been a wake up call to just what is possible from a speaker that shows some promise. The results were nothing less than an awaking to how important networks are, and even more amazing is how these networks make the Forte sound as big as Klipsch's larger siblings yet only a fraction of their size, and that's a hard one for people understand, unless they hear it for themselves, I can literally tell you that my Forte's stage size is about double the stock Fortes in nearly every dimension. better yet the tone is very, very clean and defined, the new networks make the stock sound strained, dark, and lean.
Your right about the 2K and I'm sure North Creek doesn't use in the 801 anything like the superb Mundorf, Duelund, caps and resistors in my own networks. Which the only reason I can afford to is the low parts value.
And I can understand the engineers constraints with cost. Which is why I had to do what I did because I can't afford 10-$20,000 loudspeakers. But I do feel what I have can compete with them!
ka7niq,
The one owner only feeling so,so about the North Creek networks doesn't surprise me. System associated gear and room setup plays such a role in good sound, to often room placement plays a factor in system performance. Also gear is very important as well, so that's a hard call but I wouldn't dismiss the North Creeks performance based on ones opinion just look at John's or even my own experience. But one thing is for sure the entire system must be capable. I certainly had other amplifiers and expensive CDP's with my modified Forte's and they told me like it is!
Your right about heroic lengths to make some Klipsch's sound right! But most often people don't go far enough, I spent about $1500 in parts and I could of easyily spent a lot more. Anyway people do some upgradeing of caps and get stock like performance with some improvements, But rarely do they get this kind of extraordinary difference and of course there was a cost but the funds spent were worth every penny, What makes more sense to people is going bigger so they move up they line, problem is they get the same similar network quailty. But as a good friend of mine said, that doesn't guarantee better performance with bigger speakers. And I have to agree as I wouldn't trade these for a pair of Khorns even up, and even a good friend of mine that owned Khorns said he would rather own these. And even if I would trade them, I would sell them to finance another project. One things for certain, I'll never live with stock networks in any Klipsch product that I was using for serious listening, I'm to spoiled. when I A-B-A'd the stock Fortes for my buddy, he couldn't even make it through one song as he said the stock Forte's were just grating his ears.
The Forte's certainly are satisfying to many people for what they are stock, but to people like myself that commonly listen to 5-$10,000 loudspeakers with CDP's and amplifiers costing just as much stock Forte's just isn't enough. The fun part is doing what I did to the Forte's to get the $10,000 performance at a fraction of the price. Then seeing the facial expressions of guest's which is just priceless not to mention my own enjoyment of great satisfying sound from DIYing.amplifiers and CDP as well.
In the end I have discovered a Giant in the mist.
SET12
BTW my home state is Florida as well, born in North Miami to be exact.
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It doesn't get any better than this[Y]
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Thanks to all.
I will try the placement in the corner. Never try because I thought the Forte' was not engineered to work like the k-horns.
Also because of the passive radiator the theory says that they should be quite far from the rear wall. Anyway I tried the placement near the rear wall and far from it without any great result.I'm about a foot of the rear wall speakers are 9ft apart on an 18ft wall I sit about 12ft away from each speaker, I have tremendous low end with great system warmth and need no sub or EQ even at low volume levels.
I atribute much of the warmth and low end response to the North Creek Inductors.
And again IMO, simply put, wimpy or Iron core inductors equal wimpy sound.
SET12
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Bob Crites is a great guy! I have his titanium diapraghms in my Cornwall 2's. He is a wealth of knowledge, and IMHO a great asset to any audiophile. The same for DeanG, and KKK, oops, I meant ALK
I think perhaps they should make OEM crossovers with as close to original capacitor parts as possible availiable, for those of us that prefer to keep our speakers stock. Really, many Klipsch speakers are ungodly bright and shrill, so lets be real for a minute.You don't see people gutting B&W 801's, they are a great speaker, as is. People GUT some Klipsch speakers, and go to heroic lengths, to TRY and make their speakers sound right.You know, if it aint broke, don't fix it ? It is my experience that the Klipsch speakers I have re capped were already bright enough, and the LAST thing they needed was a low ESR Cap to make em even more bright.There are people that certainly do gut 801's http://www.northcreekmusic.com/801web.html
And while cap improvements are very audible I see nothing on Inductors that are just as audible if not more. In fact I find iron core inductors just horid sounding IMO and I'll never use them again due to their very audible hysteresis distortion that literally sounds like its compressed. And if you change an inductor the whole presentation that a cap gives will be just as different.
The amazing thing is many will replace parts but I find they don't go far enough to get to where the sound is dramatically enhanced. Myself I have only scratched the surface on what one can do. But I can tell you doing what was done above to even a lowly speaker like a Forte 1 will stand with Giants.
My current version of the Forte network with Duelund Copper VSF caps and Duelund Resistors
Though I have some $1500 into these the performance is worth thousands more! and I do it all over again in a heart beat. The subjective quality of these parts is really amazing and is something that almost has to be heard to believe.
And if you care to read "No Regrets" and "Robie's" listening experience with them.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340&page=3
SET12
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Dan,One should never run a tube amp without a load.
I'm doing something similar. A 20 wpc HH Scott 222c powering the mids-highs on FOUR KLF-30's. It has 4,8 and 16 ohms taps. What do you reccomend? Does powering four speakers rather than only two take up the slack?
Scott, I did what SET12 suggested and noticed better separation between the bass and the mid/highs, thanks SET12.
I ended up using what I found in my basement, used two 33 ohm resistors (2W wire wound) wired in parallel.
Thanks Southern, That's good to hear! [Y]
I read of this trick many yrs ago in Stereophile Magazine. Basically these resistors help keep the amp stable. I think its more common for high frequency stabilization issues than low one's but both can occur.
My only concern is the wattage is sufficient so I would monitor that. Also for an even sweeter presentation if your doing this long term, I would consider a pair of Duelund resistors, I use them across my tweeters and have found nothing even remotely close to their smooth presentation, they are made of Graphite and have a negative temperature coefficient. Most resistors have a positive.
On another note if you look at your Heathkit W5M's on the schematic you'll see what are called tweeter protectors consisting of a resistor and cap for saving the amplifier in the event that a tweeter blows and the amplifier has no load at those frequencies. The tweeter protector then becomes the load saving the amp from destruction. A few other tube amp manufactures also employed these from time to time I see in schematics.
And BTW if you don't have a manual for the W5M you should be able to get it on line, I learned a lot of interesting things from it and it is one of the best amp operating manuals I have ever read IMO. I have spent many hrs listening with W5's and that is one fine amplifier IMO.
Cheers
SET12
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Hi First of all I'm sorry of my poor english. I'm about to sell my pair of Forte II because they lack of... BASS !! I read one similar thread here and i start to think that I never found the right amplier for them. I gave them : 1)"exposure xv" integrated amplifier (30 w) . The bass did not come out 2) Densen dm10 integrated amplifier (75 w). More powerfull but still the same problem 3) Jolida 202a integrated amplifier (30 w of tubes). Great matching with horns but still the lack of bass 4) Conrad Johnson PV 10 preamplifier + Trend audio TA 10 T-amp !! (10 w) . Great transparency and soundstage but still the same problem. To partially solved the problem I added a JBL subwoofer P8400. The bass improved of lot of course but there is not lot of punch. I own also a pair of JBL monitor 4312 and the JBL bass is there in all its magnificence , tight and with punch. So I decided to transfer them in the main room selling the Forte but...first i would like some advise from you: 1) Is the Forte able to deliver a JBL bass, tight and with punch ? 2) what ampli do you suggest for raising this bass ? Anyone tried a powerful and relative cheap CARVER ( M 1.5t for example ) ? One last thing : I live in a flat and I cannot listen at very high levels but the bass should be come out. Thank you Ran
The bass of my Fortes has been described as jackhammer like, for reasons why see my thread here for photo's and the threads last pages for some Klipsch owners comments that have heard them. The problem is not your gear so much as its the wimpy networks IMO and I listen with just 10 watts!
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340&page=12
Cheers
SET12
I understand you have fancy networks and all. I'm sure they sound excellent. But almost everyone who owns Forte II's know they produce bass. These things aren't wimps at any stretch of the imagination. He either has something wrong with his speakers or it is just a matter of location from the wall with the passives.
My Chorus II's can hit like a jackhammer and my networks are stock. I just use a different approach. I use an insane amount of power. By power I mean the kind that can control a woofer. Some amplifiers talk the talk but just cant walk the walk.
Great response Stormin,
Yes, Forte's and others do have bass response, but not like these. And I have a stock pair here that demonstrates that.
I love your power approach "insane amount of it", When I started more than 35yrs ago I to had insane amounts of power, then I discovered I wanted quality vs quantity and to get it, I had to go with less and less power. I virtually went from 200 RMS/channel to just the 5 watts RMS or just 10 peak watts today.
Your right though, many amplifiers "talk the talk but just cant walk the walk" like that! And getting a 10 watt tube SET to do this isn't an easy task especially classically designed SET amps, but then again there is nothing hardly classical about my amps either.
They have the same energy storage as some Krell amps, 400 Joules, and they move that energy relatively unimpeded ( many have too high of DCR supply paths IMO) which is the key to their strong impact.
If there is one thing I learned its, a watt isn't just a watt, its what the watt does! I had a recently had visitor here and he owns PP Tube amplifiers with more than fifteen times the power I have! here's part of an e-mail he sent me
"Your amps really kick some a$$,
the networks are great too, but I never heard amps like that. Are you
sure its not like 100 watts, the decimal in the wrong place thing? : )
-Jim"I have told Jim that its not just the amps but the whole system all of which is heavily modified including my CDP which has as much energy as a HT receiver.
But back to the networks, Iron core inductors IMO are just terrible and if you heard some Large Core Air Cores I sincerely doubt you'd ever go back to Iron Cores cause there's a real strong compression going on in Iron Cores which makes the bass sound lean in contrast.
I can tell you this, Jim above is ready to dump $1000 into networks for his Cornwall's.
A system is even more enjoyable when it has impact at lower volume levels.
Jim here has invited me to bring my amps to his home to hear on other klipsch's, as soon as we both can set a time, he lives near Chicago, I said I would bring my whole system, I'm not sure how many people he would plan to entertain but possible you could hear this system for yourself if he plans on having others there.
In the end each of us has our own needs and our own roads to take, some simple and some not so simple like mine.
SET12
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If you're going to do this at least put a 16 ohm loading resistor across the tube amp, You can buy 8 ohm 20 watt non loading inductive resistors from radio shack use two in series for 16 ohms.
SET12
I am using the 8 ohm tap from my Dyanco to the mid/highs of my Forte crossover. If I am understanding you correct you recommend putting a 16 ohm
resisitor in parallel with my tube amp (at the output)?I thought about the fact that I am putting the full frequency spectrum of my amps to each of the passive crossovers and considered using an active filter up front to only amplify the lows or mids/highs to the passive crossovers. Any thoughts?
Yes thats correct use a 16 ohm load on the 8 ohm tap of your amps the other choice is the active filter, But it's not my first choice, others maybe.
A better way would be to use a filter or filters internally in your amp to roll off the lows by changing coupling caps. I saw this being done in a system owned by Arthur Loesch and I thought wow that's pretty cool, as it eliminated gainstages used in an active network.
I have not done it myself but if I were to, this is how I would do it. As there is to much is loss in transparency for my tastes along with other things. I have more than enough gain from my power amps to use them direct with my CDP. Every preamp but one has been a compromise for me, and that preamp was $5000. I could attempt to build one but it would be very difficult to match it.
But consider what this guy has done and where he was with tri-amping.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/messages/14/147282.html
I couldn't agree with him more! He found great satisfaction in going with some of the worlds largest Inductors as I have and I'm sure his caps and resistors he's using are rated very high subjectively as well as mine in my own networks.
Bottom line is that he found some of the most subjective satisfaction in more than 10yrs of listening to his new passive crossover networks. Allowing him to use his best amplifier full range. And achieveing as good or better subjective satisfaction.
I wouldn't trade my North Creek low frequency 8AWG inductors for any sub, simply because the Inductor covers more range than any sub. And the sheer grip of these inductors is tractor like or jackhammer like in the lows as SWL who has heard them has said.Also I wouldn't give my 8AWG tweeter inductors up either, there is just something about them that give an effortless presentation, along with a sound stage that is nearly double the size of the stock Fortes.
I'm having the most fun and satisfaction I have ever had in 35yrs of audio and that includes seeing facial expressions of others when they hear the results as well, which is priceless.
Been down many roads, no doubt everyone has to travel theirs, but lately I have been just flying.
SET12
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You are technically correct but I am still amazed on how the tube pre-amp makes my solid state amp sound very close to my tube amp. I encourage anyone with a "old school" receiver with pre-out/power-in jacks to hook-up a tube pre-amp and give it a listen.
Yes using a tube pre is a very nice combination! But...
In referance to using a tube power amp biamping.
I hate to burst the bubble but I'm sorry to say you're risking damaging the tube amplifier.
SS amplifiers of course can run in no load situations all day long.
One should never run a tube amp without a load.
Passive crossovers of today are typically not set up to do this.
The reason there is no load is that the network delivers power to the driver only at the appropriate frequencies and blocks power at the non appropriate ones. Creating a large nearly infinite load, this is the unloading effect.
Unloading a tube amplifier while sending a signal to it produces very
dangerous levels of high voltage across its transformers primary
windings. This voltage can arc over the transformers winding insulation
causing internal shorting, it can also cause output tubes to arc over as
well.Basically what ever is on the tube amps secondary for a load is reflected back to the primary, the transformer for instance with a 16 ohm load on the 8 ohm tap will reflect twice the primaries impedance which would be an 8.6K load. much worse would be putting a 16 ohm load on a 4 ohm tap creating a 17.2 k primary and of course nothing represents infinite secondary loading!
You should also know you can do damage with out seeing or hearing as
well, and if it hasn't happened yet it may very well happen in the near
future depending on signal levels in the amp.If you're going to do this at least put a 16 ohm loading resistor across the tube amp, You can buy 8 ohm 20 watt non loading inductive resistors from radio shack use two in series for 16 ohms.
SET12
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Hi
First of all I'm sorry of my poor english. I'm about to sell my pair of Forte II because they lack of... BASS !!
I read one similar thread here and i start to think that I never found the right amplier for them. I gave them :
1)"exposure xv" integrated amplifier (30 w) . The bass did not come out
2) Densen dm10 integrated amplifier (75 w). More powerfull but still the same problem
3) Jolida 202a integrated amplifier (30 w of tubes). Great matching with horns but still the lack of bass
4) Conrad Johnson PV 10 preamplifier + Trend audio TA 10 T-amp !! (10 w) . Great transparency and soundstage but still the same problem.
To partially solved the problem I added a JBL subwoofer P8400. The bass improved of lot of course but there is not lot of punch.
I own also a pair of JBL monitor 4312 and the JBL bass is there in all its magnificence , tight and with punch. So I decided to transfer them in the main room selling the Forte but...first i would like some advise from you:
1) Is the Forte able to deliver a JBL bass, tight and with punch ?
2) what ampli do you suggest for raising this bass ? Anyone tried a powerful and relative cheap CARVER ( M 1.5t for example ) ?
One last thing : I live in a flat and I cannot listen at very high levels but the bass should be come out.
Thank you
RanThe bass of my Fortes has been described as jackhammer like, for reasons why see my thread here for photo's and the threads last pages for some Klipsch owners comments that have heard them. The problem is not your gear so much as its the wimpy networks IMO and I listen with just 10 watts!
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340&page=12
Cheers
SET12
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Mid-range replacement diaphrams = After 40 hours of giving them a fair shake...I went back to the originals. The upgraded diaphrams never opened up. "Muffled" comes to mind compared to the originals. Popped the originals back in and the sparkle, spaciousness and their ability to breath was back in a big way.I still think it is a tractrix vs exponential difference. There is actually no comparing the two different horn designs. The flare has the most profound effect on the sound IMHO. Almost every new design on the planet is using tractrix now. Even all of the DIY'ers build tractrix horns. Side by side an exponential horn sounds hon-key to a tractrix horn.
I just did the titanium tweeters and the mid
replacement on my KLF-30's.
Titanium tweeters = I'm keeping
them in. Subtle improvement smoothing out the top end. Night and day
difference...no...but worth it IMO for $52.00.
Mid-range
replacement diaphrams = After 40 hours of giving them a fair shake...I
went back to the originals. The upgraded diaphrams never opened up.
"Muffled" comes to mind compared to the originals. Popped the originals
back in and the sparkle, spaciousness and their ability to breath was
back in a big way.
Perhaps the upgraded mid-range diaphrams would
be more suited for someone using a bright solid state amp? I'm using
tubes for the mid-highs that are silky smooth. Just my experience. My
ears, my room, my gear. YMMVIn my Forte's they are ticket the big time to
my ears in my system.
No doubt the new mids probably won't be for everyone, I do know of
people that didn't like the Titanium tweeters.
One should keep in mind these diaphragm's are effected with the
components associated with them. That means the inductors, caps and
resistors I have been able to swap out various parts of my outboard
networks and everything was audible and some of those parts were not great!For the Mids, the Crites Autotransformers I use with mine have 50%
larger cores and have much more extended bandwidth.
Even associated gear can have an influence, so especially YMMV.Also I think its highly unlikely that just the Tractrix would alone do what these new mids, coupling caps and auto-transformers have done for me, and I doubt that any stock Forte II with a Tractrix horn would even come close to the sound-stage size and mid-range transparency I have gotten with what I'm using. If someone has a pair your welcome to bring them on!
But we may have a little comparison coming up in the near future as I have spoken to SWL's friend Jim and after some time with him on the phone I agreed I would demo my amps for him, and if I'm doing that I might as well haul the rest of my system as well, So there will be an opportunity here for people to hear for themselves with everything in the same environment with the same gear.
This is pretty close to Chicago.
SET12
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Thanks for the review!!
I have fortes and really like them but this will give me a project to work on over the next year. I am going to have to email SET12 about what the cost was to upgrade his Fortes. Then upgrade in phases as I get the money.
Bottom line, as much as the Fortes cost new. you can go as far as you want, one can easily spend several thousand, I just scratched the surface with what I spent. To get these kind of results your going to have spend at least near this much minimum IMO. Cost are always rising like my inductors are now $600 for the 4 of them. 5yrs ago they were half this much.
I have no regrets spending what I have, because in order to match them you'd have to spend thousands more IMO and even then they will give run neck and neck with some of the best.
You can find all my parts and mods here
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340
Heres a photo contrasting the stock network to the modified.
And the latest version I'm using with Duelund VSF Copper midrange cap, and Duelund Graphite resistor, the other caps are Mundorf Silver/Oils
The fun of these is entertaining people like SWL and his friend Jim facial expressions were priceless.
SET12
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I love my mids and highs.......but my bass sounds "tubby" after hearing Dan's tight, powerful, articulate low end. Did I say powerful? Of course my system will re-create a concert type atmosphere in my living room.....which is what I'm after.....but I've never heard low end finess like I have in Dan's Forte's.
We're gonna be all over you to bring those amps down to Chicago so we can demo them with a plethora of Klipsch speakers. We're even talking about funding your trip and accomodations. While the heavily modded x-overs were without a doubt leaps and bounds above the stock networks......the stock networks sounded fantastic as well. Which in turn has a lot of curiosity in how your amps would sound with say.....Cornwalls, KLF-30's, Heresy's, K-horns, KLF-20's, Alon's and even some RB-75's. I think we'd be in for a real treat.
Man! You are hooked, aren't you? LOL I love it! It's fun watching you grow into "Tube Gear"!
I'm just not going there......yet! But, you're starting to make me wonder........? (Note to self: Don't read SWL's threads!)
Dennie
Love this line and it was so true with much of my work on the Fortes and and everthing else in my system.
Basic research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing.
- Wernher von BraunBut geez, imagine a 10 watt tube amp making an impression and a SET amp at that, bass, go figure!
Never seen them get so much attention.
Cheers
SET12
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Thanks Scott,SET12 here on the forum has some Forte's that will blow you away.
A pair of DIY SET mono-blocks (10 wpc) and modified outboard crossovers that take the Forte's to another level of performance.....and then some.
A huge soundstage, imaging at it's best and powerful.......I mean powerful bass that is subsonic perfection. The "Jackhammer" like bass is like no other Forte I've ever heard. These amps have serious power. They ooze all the wonderful tube qualities but with muscle that controls the low end with authority.
If you're ever in his neck of the woods, listening to his system is a real treat. Klipsch owner or not......his system demands respect. Dan is a gentleman with wisdom that he's eager to share. Great guy.......great experience. Thanks Dan.
-Scott
Those are some poetic words.
"Jackhammer like bass" That's a new term for me but I like that!
Yes, Its a huge stage that I truly have come love.
I'm glad I was able to demonstrate the stock Fortes to you as there's nothing better to show the merits of network modifications even to stock network configurations with simple high subjective value replacement parts as I have done.
So as some may wonder how was this achieved?
Forte's
No doubt the Fortes sound huge. And I feel networks are
the one of the ares least explored, Its one thing to maintain them. But
if one is to go beyond the stock networks performance it takes some
extreme measures IMO and what was done was very extreme and costly with
the mods costing as much as the Fortes were new. The yield from these
mods is easily worth 5-10 times the original Forte cost IMO. Allowing
the Forte's to compete easily with other Klipsch Titans standing just as
tall and forthright "like a sleeping giant awaken with a terrible will
to resolve"http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159441'> http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159441
Amplifiers
The key to powerful SET amps IMO is supply time constants. This means using a very low DCR path. Mine of which is just 3.5 ohms from a large .3H choke running at 1/10 capacity of its current rating and using nearly 2000uf's/Mono of supply caps and 300,000uf's of filament supply, the B+ reserves are uniquely diode isolated, which isolates my bulk electrolytic's from the very high quality Aeon Polypropylene Caps that run the gain stages. The Diodes allow the Polypropylene's to discharge fast without crosstalk from the electrolytic's this preserves the speed and transparency of the prop sound while the electrolytic's give a solid foundation to the amplifiers helping to pull up the props after discharging.
The only other person working with this type of supply is a very highly controversial figure Jeff Medwin who was a mentor to J.C. Morrison and Herb Reichert
Two of the most legendary DIYers I know of.
While my supplies are similar in low DCR I think mine are closer to a virtual battery IMO and as a result the Jackhammer like impact response yet with great size and delicacy.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=257784The sourceA highly modified 35lb Sony CDP X77ES, supply was increased from 15,000uf's to 150,000ufs, Burson Discrete Op Amps were added along with an AC bypass of the discrete series pass transistors for the analog stage. This eliminated the feedback of the regulator series pass while allowing the DC to be regulated. This gave the analog stage great warmth to the sound. The supply uses diode isolation of its final Muse Electrolytic's .
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=185971
If anyone wishes this system please feel free to contact me.
SET12
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I still don't feel SWL will get the full picture. Fortes are exponential horns and KLF's are tractrix. Completely different animal. I feel a much improved horn but that is my opinion. The only folks I see jumping through hoops about the mid change are the folks with the exponential horns.
It does appear everyone is gaga over the titanium tweeters though.
As far as updating and upgrading caps I think every speaker would benefit to a degree.
Caps!, The Inductors may even be more serious! I'll never be satisfied with Iron Cores. To much compression IMO.
I would say the majority yes for the Titanium, but not everybody. IMO the choice of inductor played a major role for my satisfaction and I was warned from others they thought it might be to bright and it is with some inductors.
Perhaps the Polymers are better I don't know, I guess I could try them, but the only way to compare a Tractrix would be to use the same diaphragm not two different ones like Polymer vs Phenolic IMO.
I hooked up a stock pair of Forte's tonight. Compared to my modified pair.
Listening to a cut of the Jennifer Warnes "Hunter" CD on
the stock Fortes after I listened to the modified and I left the volume
level the same before switching them.
The CD has been a reference of mine for 18yrs so I know it well. It has a
very wide sound stage.
The last cut I listened to on the modified was cut 10 "I can't hide"Here's what I heard, First off.
The sound stage was as though it was literally cut in half or more, I
kid you not.
Everything was scrunched between the speakers with some material just
getting just outside the speaker boundaries.
The air of the recording was simply cramped.
Tonally things were incomplete and somewhat thin like the note decays
just not there.
The bass! WoW notes were like little thumping notes, nowhere near the
warmth of body and sheer size and definition of the modified. Just plain
amazing.
The top end was hard press to give much in the way of room ambiance or a
display of recordings acoustic size. I have heard this cut on many high
end speakers like B&W 801's that displayed the sheer size this
recording has.
When I say this I mean this particular recording seemed like 15ft of
stage width was whacked off which is utterly amazing to me.We'll see tommorrow what the the guys think!
SET12
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Its more than that stormin, the stock networks are just so compressed. I think the combination of large core Inductors, the larger Autotransformers, superior caps and resistors make the mids and tweeters just make these Forte's leap out and the bass is unquestionably superior as well.
As I said this nothing subtle.
Your always welcome for a listen.
SET12
Oh I,m a believer that you have taken your Fortes to another level of performance.
The thread started out about tweeter and mid diaphragms and I'm just not so sure that SWL will see such an improvement in the tractrix mid.
But it sure doesn't hurt to give it a try.
Thanks again for the offer. Would love to stop up sometime.
Again I don't think its eactly the tractrix that is responsible here.
I have only one report of a person staying with their original mid with a KLF 20, they claimed the the phase plug had the same diameter holes as the mid pictured here on the right while mine clearly do not as seen lying on the left.
The two pictured are clearly made differently, the coil former on the right is that of a clear plastic type of material while the voice coil former on the left appears to be wound on a copper voice coil former. And even the Phenolic material is different. The KLF 20 person nevermade any comments about the voice coil formers.
The real key I think is the materials. Now what I noticed with your Chorus II's is that Klipsch went from a Phenolic material to a Polymer and of course that could very well be a difference in sound.
The main thing that is real striking in these two mids pictured is the fact that the stock Forte is harshwhich I believe is basicly from the high frequency bounce back associated with it.
So the Polymer mid may very well be a different animal all together but clearly to my ears and those ears that I trust the new mids are flat out superior and I just don't buy the Tractrix theory alone but I buy the Polymer more.
I think the sheer performance gains out of these Titanium's and the new mids are only multiplied by the quality of the other components used with them. While the stock networks give many people great satisfaction, I wish it were enough for me but unfortunately its not.
And finally I'd like to say virtually everything in network influences the sound at least in my system, its been a real ear opener and I hope to show that to SWL tomorrow as well the Cornwall owner.
As I said you, or anyone else is welcome to hear them as the expression on peoples faces from hearing are far better than mere words.
Cheers
SET12
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I still don't feel SWL will get the full picture. Fortes are exponential horns and KLF's are tractrix. Completely different animal. I feel a much improved horn but that is my opinion. The only folks I see jumping through hoops about the mid change are the folks with the exponential horns.
It does appear everyone is gaga over the titanium tweeters though.
As far as updating and upgrading caps I think every speaker would benefit to a degree.
Its more than that stormin, the stock networks are just so compressed. I think the combination of large core Inductors, the larger Autotransformers, superior caps and resistors make the mids and tweeters just make these Forte's leap out and the bass is unquestionably superior as well.
As I said this nothing subtle.
Your always welcome for a listen.
SET12
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That it is, Dramatic,
The mids took about 5-10hrs to bloom, initially they sound somewhat compressed and a smaller sound stage, then things start happening like a larger increase in stage size and more warmth with eventually far exceeding the originals performance.These things literally open up like a flower. The main thing heard initially that you can notice is the smoothness from the lack of high frequency bounce back of the originals
But couple these new mids and Titanium diaphragms to Bobs Larger Autotransformers (better bandwidth) and large Air Core Inductors and caps, resistors that are substantially better sounding subjectively and you'd have something competitive with a product 5-10 times its cost IMO. All these things working together leave me at a lost for words to describe the sheer musicalness of them.
SWL and a friend "Jim" that owns Cornwalls will be be here in my home Friday guess we will have to see what they have to say. The Jim is interested in doing what I did with my Fortes to his Cornwall's. He's thinking of dropping a $1000 into his Cornwalls or more.
What will be interesting is I have pair of stock Fortes to do a comparison with.
So one might think it would be better to just upgrade within the Klipsch line instead of pouring funds into networks as I have. But there is one thing! Your still left with networks that don't approach the subjective quality of this kind of upgrade IMO.
I want to say that the stock Fortes are pleasant sounding speaker but
they have limitations.The comparison won't be subtle by any means. One immediate that will be noticed is how compressed sounding the stock units are and just how much smaller they sound.These Fortes are just effortless and very explosive dynamically from top to bottom they defy their physical size by producing a sound-stage size that rival IMO any other Klipsch Heritage model and more over, so smooth most people tell me they wouldn't even know they were listening to Horns had they not seen the Klipsch Logo's on the Fortes.
These are tall words of course but the proof is in the listening.
I welcome anyone to give them a listen.
SET12
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Scott,
IMO the whole network can use improving as well as the mid and tweeters which you'll be able to hear for yourself.
I have stock speakers for a comparison which is not a subtle difference.
When the window opens up and the system is in Hyper-drive I doubt there will be any questions as to is it really worth it [
] SET12
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I have, you can hear them as I'm ready for you guys to come up for a listen next weekend Saturday if you can. Please e-mail me.
As to the midrange diaphragms, I don't know, I know of one person that preferred the stock midranges of his KLF20's which are the same for the KLF30's claiming that the hole size in the phase plug of the new diaphragms were the same size as his original KLF20 diaphragms but he said nothing about the coil formers which are very different from my stock Forte voice-coil formers the diaphragm materials appear to be different as well.
The new midranges took about 5hrs before they started blooming with warmth and space. Otherwise I found them to have a somewhat narrower soundstage width initially and over time they eventually exceeded the stock units in every way.
So after 40 some hrs they were really settled in and I find them far superior over the original stock Forte mids.
The advantage of the new mids is that they have no bounce back, making them ultra smooth. One can especially hear their control with SET amps put into clipping as the new mids show even better recovery time from clipping, its as though the hang time during the clip is substantially shorter.
Another area is the piano where they really show their stuff being substantially less harsh, allowing one to hear more of the piano's sound board sort of the meat and potatoes of piano key strokes.
I couldn't do without them as they are truly a world class performer in my system.
I have written substantially about them here for a few pages.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340&page=25SET12
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Anyone is welcome to hear them for themselves if they live in the Midwest or for that matter anywhere!
If I'm ever going to be anywhere near Appleton,WI I would love to hear your Forte. I don't have the means to spend the money you've spent on anything other than my son's college fund so I'll just have to live vicariously through you!
Well Thanks for the post, Your certainly welcome to hear them for yourself. Interestingly tonight I went out for some great live Jazz the name of the band is Jazz Orgy all very talented members.
http://www.jazzorgy.com/new/index.cgi
The one thing about the area I live in is it has great music, I also live close to Lawrence University which has one of the best music conservatories in the country. And the Band tonight feature a Professor and a graduate from Lawrence playing with the band tonight, They were hot! The drummer was one of the best I had ever heard and my friend Don told me he is one of the best in the midwest,and he was just awesome. My friend Don goes out for live music several times a week and once in awhile I have an opportunity to tag along and I not only listen but get to learn a few things about music as Don was a former Trombone player himself and has just an awesome sound system as well.
I had him read through these posts and asked him if what I wrote was way off, I had almost forgotten he was a former Khorn owner, his comment was he'd rather own these Forte's of mine then own a pair of Khorns, really I said! he then said Dan, those Fortes are so balanced with bass,mids and treble not standing out from one another and all equally just as dynamic, nothing is forward or recessed and there is tremendous detail with great authority. I asked if the authority was as great as a Khorn, he said no question about it yes. Those are some words coming from his listening experience which I have great respect for, he told me, you ought to be just ecstatic over your mods. I said I am.
One thing you can do is get a start, and slowly build, I think one can
attain comparable results with careful compromising.The Forte maybe little and not have the attention that its bigger brothers have, but these Modified Fortes stand as big sonically IMO and my good friend Don's as its larger brothers.
SET12
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If you follow other forums around the net you will find most folks going to the extremes you are actually building their own speakers as well in search of that perfect sound.
Yes that's very true, But its not as easy as one may think. I recently did purchase some very good software for measurements and design. Which will be of some aid in future evaluations.
I also have a pair of two-ways with expensive drivers with a computer designed network that my very best friend designed for me. But you can imagine his disappointment when I had to tell him he wasn't even close to these Modified Fortes and now with the new mids and other mods they are even further away from competing with these. The two ways have a pair of 8in powerful woofers with a small horn.He told me how the woofers respond out to 5000hz so there should be very responsive in the mids and so on. But in truth to my ears the midrange was very flat dynamically and the harmonic content rather void with very poor decays. Not even close to these Fortes mids. He has been designing speakers for nearly 40yrs and is one of the most intelligent people I know! He even has a nephew with an IQ of 190. But subjectively his design misses the boat for me. Information without being analytical or harsh is a tough order. While he used good parts they were nowhere near the subjective performance of the parts I use. And I just didn't throw these together and say look there see what I got, I worked hard at getting where I am. I'm set up so that I can evaluate the parts in my system. While some did not work for me I do believe they can work in other combination's. I am also fortunate to belong to a local Audio Club that has members with yrs of experience that I can pull from along with a good friend with thousands of hrs of symphony and jazz live performances and I believe he tells me like it is. I know he does cause I designed Phono Stages that didn't cut the mustard for him and he told me so!
The main thing is I'm not a speaker designer to speak of, I design amplifiers. I just don't have the time to dive into raw speaker design nor do I have the funds for it. I just took these Fortes and ran with what I liked about them and extended their performance envelope to a very large degree.
I'm satisfied with my Klipsch speakers. I would wager to bet that out of the 40,000 users and probably another 20,000 lurkers on the forum probably only 30-40 actually have modified networks. I believe most of the folks are getting there networks back to factory spec. Maybe they are using a better cap here and there but still basically a stock network. Unless I am misunderstanding I believe Bob is returning the crossovers back to factory specs as well.
I think it maybe more than that but I could be wrong. But if that's the case, wow, what they are missing..........
I have talked to a few that have even gone further and than I have. And they have the same kind of enthusiasm as I have.
I just think most people buy Klipsch speakers because they like them and they like the way they sound. I don't think the majority of folks are going to spend another 2,000 in network upgrades just to get the sound they are looking for. They will end up shopping longer for the speaker that fits their needs.
Oh, I don't doubt this for one minute! and they will spend thousands to indeed. But in this day and age where workers are losing as much as 50% of their income such as myself where I am now earning what I earned in the 1980's its hardly affordable to do that. So should I not go after this level of performance because I can't afford it I don't think so! DIYing it was once said that for every dollar spent it is possible to get a 10x return in commercial performance and even a 5x is a major return. Do I feel I have such performance? Easily.
It would be hard for me to believe that your Forte's can outclass a Klipschorn or a Jubilee. I am not saying that to insult your speakers in anyway.
Oh, No insult taken,
I would work with a LaScala or a Cornwall before a Khorn myself for my needs.
A stock Forte won't outclass a Khorn and I haven't heard one in awhile and I don't care for them myself, or likely the Jubilee for that matter even though I haven't heard a Jubilee but anything is possible, I do have some reservations about the Jubilee though. Just as many people have reservations on the new P39F's which I have heard. I can tell you I think the P39F is some stunning engineering. While I'll say the Fortes are not perfect in any absolute sense of subjectively; Do I think they can hold their own with a P39F? Hard to believe and hearing is believing but yes.
As to a Khorn or the Jubilee while they probably use excellent measured passive components I sincerely doubt they are anywhere near the subjective performance of of like a Duelund Copper VSF Cap or even Duelund's Copper Cast caps let alone Duelunds resistors that were so far ahead subjectively that I never felt the need to put back what I thought was some very good Ohmites.
I will tell you its hard for me to see the Khorn or the jubilee competing with the delicacy and harmonics that are had by these modifications. Their passive parts subjective quality are not likely anywhere near these. While they may measure well it doesn't guarantee a subjective thumbs up. And while the stock Forte networks are just all over the place for phase response as ALK's tests showed the subjective listening with these passive parts I used are just in another level of subjective satisfaction that is no subtlety at all.
But these are not the only performance had from the mods, The dynamic envelope is just monstrous, After a friend of mine and I where listening to his stock Forte's we went back to the modified and were blown away at how much more louder the peaks were. The stock Fortes were severely compressed sounding in contrast. Again nothing subtle about this. So do I dare think they can dynamically compete with the mighty Khorn? I'm sorry to say more than likely yes. Maybe not in an absolute SPL level attained but in a given range of both speakers yes.
I would imagine your upgraded speakers sound fantastic. Do you use exotic speaker wires and interconnects as well?Yes, They are and I have owned a lot of speakers and some pretty exoctic Like Acoustat MonitorX's with Direct Coupled Tube Amps. The Acoustats could deliver impacts that where felt in the chest but beyongd that No match for the modified Forte in the mids and top end and nieghter in sheer size. Those speakers were $5000 in 1980. And not that the Forte has no punch, They do indeed are capable of a wall impact enough to feel it in the seat of my pants on a heavy leather sofa.
Anyone is welcome to hear them for themselves if they live in the Midwest or for that matter anywhere!
I have some Klipsch owners from the Chicago area coming up here in a couple of weeks, It will be interesting for them as one is very interested in investing in his Cornwalls, in a similar manner. But I told him he should here these for himself, just don't take my word for it. Its nice to be able to hear something like this before you make a considerable investment. Myself I had a very profound hunch and I discovered the writings of George at North Creek, looked at his Bio and that convinced me to listen to him, All I can tell you is what he has said of Inductors in his FAQ's is very true from my listening experience of his products.
Do I think its worth a 10 hr drive? Only you could decide that. But you have to hear them to believe them or to totally discredit them and based on people that I have had here I find that it would be highly unlikely, and if anything a new awaking experience.
Do I use exotic wire? To a degree! I bought AudioQuest Midnight and AudioQuest Indigo along with AudioQuest Clear for pennies on the dollar. I prefer solid core wire as the sound does not change unlike stranded wire over time. And while the wire is a subtle difference in my opinion getting several subtle differences all together can yield a worth while improvement, its not as though I haven't heard some amazing wire such as FMS Zero which was one of the most amazing subjective experiences I ever had with wire and that was like $1200 for a 1 Meter Interconnect. While the speakers use AudioQuest my CDP direct uses an AR speaker brand that some yrs ago embarrassed some $500 high end interconnects, I have a pair of $500 interconnects as well but they are in the closet as I believe the AR's are doing a stunning job! And they where well under maybe $50 at the time. I'm not likely to spend vast sums when I can get peoples left overs to work at the level they do for me.
Thanks for the offer.
Not a problem.
Thank You For the Excellent Questions.
SET12
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I had some company last night and the man said he never was a fan of Klipsch to speak of (neither was I till I started working with them with a SET amp)
SET12
That sentence says a lot to me. Personally, I like Klipsch and the way they sound a lot. I'm sure there is improving on the sound with better parts but to not be a fan of Klipsch except for one thing or another is just not where I stand or probably 90% of the people here.
Up until a dozen yrs ago I was never interested in Klipsch, they just didn't do much for me at all. Then I built a transmitting tube amplifier and I needed something efficient so I borrowed a pair of Forte's and found that there was some magic here with them! I still wanted more performance, so I ran into ALK's work through a buddy as I heard a dramatic transformation of his LaScala's. I knew that I basically liked the Fortes but I needed more information from them. So I built a pair of outboard networks to be able to swap parts out in minutes so I could find the best components to my taste. And I have to a very large extent!
The fact is for myself after being where I am today with these networks I am not likely to ever be satisfied with the stock components and this is probably so for most speakers Klipsch or others.
I'm glad your satisfied and others as well but as it is there are many people on this forum that have done some modifications to there networks in one form or another.
Mine are certainly an extreme but I'm after extreme performance and this is what it took. It would of been easy for me to spend $10,000 even on a simple Forte Network but I spent $2,000 and the performance out of the Forte is easily equal to a $10,000 or more commercial product today. I know its hard to believe and that person I had here was impressed and its just what it took for him.
For me just having the name Klipsch associated to what he heard was very meaningful regardless whether modified or not.
Networks are for me one of the last undiscovered areas of improving a system, they seem like they are just taken for granted. That maybe fine for some but its not for me. There are many fine replacement networks from Bob Crites or ALK or even DeanG, but the components I have used here go well beyond the average network upgrade or simple back to factory spec's. The difference isn't subtle it is profoundly better, Steen Duelund often had more money tied up in his networks than the cost of the drivers themselves! and I can now understand why!
Anyone is welcome to hear them for themselves if they live in the Midwest.
SET12
I think perhaps they should make OEM crossovers with as close to original capacitor parts as possible availiable, for those of us that prefer to keep our speakers stock. Really, many Klipsch speakers are ungodly bright and shrill, so lets be real for a minute.You don't see people gutting B&W 801's, they are a great speaker, as is. People GUT some Klipsch speakers, and go to heroic lengths, to TRY and make their speakers sound right.You know, if it aint broke, don't fix it ? It is my experience that the Klipsch speakers I have re capped were already bright enough, and the LAST thing they needed was a low ESR Cap to make em even more bright.
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Interconnects & Cables upgraded
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
Got to tell you, sure I hear differences in cables. Most of the time they are subtle to me. And sometimes they are flat out unreal. I have friend that called me to his home to hear some FMS Zero's a 1 meter pair that several yrs back sold for $1200. He needed another pair of ears cause he was having a hard time really believing what his ears were telling him. When I heard them I just shook my head in as much bewilderment as he had. They were absolutely breathtaking while not being subtle at all. It was one of the most compelling cable comparisons I had ever heard. FMS Zero was designed by one of the founding fathers of AudioQuest, he only made these on demand and there was a waiting list. The cable had it all body,depth, dynamics and harmonics. And my buddy ended up buying them.
Now what's interesting is I had a visitor drive some 400mi to hear my system, he brought along a pair of $1200 MIT maybe 2 meter interconnects that he was pretty enthused over. My system has a lot of dynamics and transparency that SWL has heard and I have added recently a Paper and Oil/Silver Foil bypass coupling cap to my amplifiers that I feel substantially took them to a new level that SWL has not heard. But anyway so my vistor said it's cable time and we proceeded to listen to my cables which created quite a stir a few yrs back in Stereophile Magazine as embarrassing some rather expensive cables so I bought them and I have to tell you I have a $500 set of AudioQuest Quartz's siting in my closet cause the Stereophile recommended cables do just that, they simply were better to my ears.
So what I can tell you is yeah, I liked the MIT's they were slightly fuller, and smoother sounding but oh so subtly so. My visitor looked at me and said he was really humbled by what he heard and felt knowing my talents the money could be spent better elsewhere and I agreed since I am a major DIYer.
What's interesting is the $40 Silver Foil/Oil bypass cap made a substantially more of a difference then the $1200 cable. And for that much I'd rather have the outboard networks that I have as they are by far a more monstrously serious difference more so than any cable I have ever heard.
And don't get me wrong I do use some pretty expensive speaker cables nearly $1500 retail for them new but I bought them for pennies on the dollar like less than $150 for some AudioQuest Midnight, Clear and Indigo. They were somebodies castoff's and I made them work for my system which I do believe cables are system dependent. I use cables with insulated individual solid core wires to mainly escape skin effect which is especially audible with age. Still, all system subtleties do add up IMO.
But in general I'm a believer but sometimes I have to really question the sheer value of them when I get the results from a $30 Acoustic Research (speaker company) that can slay a giant or at least keep up with them.I have to question the sheer value of many cables. I have to wonder about AR's Master series about $100 and I heard that Belden has a real killer pair as well under $100 supposedly even better than the Master Series. It's one heck of a lot of fun when you can get cables like these to slay giants.
Cheers
SET12