SET12
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"I can tell absolutely NO difference whatsoever between the one with new caps and the one with the old caps."
The last guy around here that said that after buying some networks from me decided to go get his hearing tested -- and found out that he didn't have much left passed 6kHz.
"Is there any chance my caps were good in a 77 crossover?"
Doubtful.
"Are clarity that bad?"
Doubtful.
Definitely check your build again -- carefully.
I'll second that!
As I have heard every cap signature and inductor for that matter that I have inserted into my networks!
I'd also be willing to point at the systems electronics ability to resolve the caps signatures as well.
I hope its not your hearing buts its possible especially as one ages.
SET12
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It would be nice to have a frequency response graph of each poster's actual hearing capability listed under each post to provide some kind of data to see why they chose the components in their system. Example: If a posters hearing response is 100hz to 5000khz then I can see why he chose Bose for his speakers.
JJK
Thats funny I like that!
Recently my buddy was here conducting some measurements on my Fortes and when we got to 12khz he clearly could not hear it! It was as plain as day to me!
Well! I guess that explains why he uses his treble control to the extent that he does!
SET12
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I like well made capacitors, but the long drawn out descriptions that are applied to them by audiophiles and vendors are absurd.
All you need to know about capacitors is too make sure you don't use what Bob uses, and to use what I use.
5 yrs ago I took a chance with the Hovlands a very well designed cap which needed hrs and hrs of break in time as well as being by passed with some Polystyrenes made them listenable.
I wasn't aware of Humble Homemade Hifi then but if I had I'd likely would of made a better choice. I'm very grateful for his work!
Reading his discription one can clearly deduct some thoughts on its possible success.
It surely was the wrong cap in my system.
And as he said it can do wonders else where!
I have enjoyed the cap voicing as it has allowed me to really hone in system tuning in a big way.
When one spends hrs of listening the effect of what might be called a mole hill ends up being a mountain with enough listening so much so that any change is immediately reconizable to me anyway.
I have four areas for caps I can work with. My amps for overall which only use 1 cap, The bass, The mids and the highs which I have found these areas very sensitive to cap choices IMO and when it comes to the inductors all have been very sensitive.
The neat thing is if you have electronics that you basically like and they are expensive and don't want to part with them it is possible to tune the system using caps to more of your liking. Example I have a $2000 CD player kind of vintage now but is very well made ! And I heard a $10,000 CD player that I marveled at once for its sound quality and thought I'd like to have. But thats not the case now!
For some a cap is a cap as long as they measure good!
The degree of what one wants from their system is the real dictator.
Certainly there is nothing wrong with a simple refresh with just good quality parts after 20 yrs of use or the pursuit of specific tonal character as in my case.
So its about good enough! Or not good enough! IMO
But when I can mod a pair of Forte's to sing on a level that doesn't have me chasing Palladiums after I heard them, I consider the absurd $1500 I spent on these networks a real success!
SET12
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The Parts Connexion site is good for several horse laffs... like the cap with gold "which gives this capacitor more precision combined with a sense of harmony and elegance"
So, the 'trons feel more elegant swimming through gold? Or do the owners get to proudly point at their crossovers and say 'There's gold in them there caps!"
and, their stablemates that claim "even fuller and smoother tonal richness and diversity". The engineers must have been reading the HR manual that day. What's next, a capcitor that comes with its own affirmative action plan?
Not at all, Its about looking for your tonal bliss. Much like one choosing an amplifier. Each componet does have an audible signature as do inductors like the high quailty Solens which I recently tried. They had a measured Q factor four times higher. But just because the science says their better doesn't mean their better at all subjectively it just means the measurement is better and I certainly respect that. But I found that when it was inserted to replace my North Creek inductor it sounded just plain harsh. I went back to the North Creek within minutes and it was substantially smoother and just flat out sounded right.
Even the Mundorf Silver/Gold Cap I was told by the manufacture that it could come across as being a little over the top in some applications the manufacture was right. But it doesn't mean that it wouldn't work in another system.
Its a lot of fun to do voicing with various caps without having to change amps and other associated gear to maximize the sound that one wants and can profoundly change by substituting and listening.
Its been very much worth the effort and because of my efforts I have been rewarded with a speaker that is competitive with the Palladium's in regards to my needs and desires. And I have found there is no single solution with any brand of cap but what works for you!
To investigate this area of sound quality I built this outboard network that allows me to change any component in a matter of minutes preserving some of my memory of the previous componets sound.
The nice thing also about the Forte 1is its relatively simple network and its componet values are reasonably low allowing me to try out many more manufactures.
SET12
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Sure,
They should sound better than most Pots!
SET12
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They have a very favorable review of Clarity Caps. About the same price of Solen but smoother. I used the PX Series (pretty inexpensive) in an old pair of B&W's and they just bloom. My new favorite caps, for the price it is hard to go wrong. They should work very well in Klipsch.
Yes, They do and a good choice!
I love Body!
SET12
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They seem to be incredibly simple. When are they appropriate for use? What are the benefits and drawbacks?
Nice to see some thinking out of the box
I have not used a line stage in yrs.
Few line stages hold my interest.
After listening once! Its all that it took for me to set my FET line stage on the shelf.
So I run my Sony X77ES direct from its variable out directly into my SET mono's typically those controls are about 10K and being 5K at the mid point which is where I run at my loud playing volume.
My amps have a 500K input so no real issues along with 1/2 volt in for 10 watts out.
I recently had SWL here with his Peach II here! I held my breath because I knew if I liked what I heard I was going to have to design and build my self a line stage!
Well! Its a very nice line stage and pretty musical! But! It was out of its league vs CD direct into my amps. Dynamicly my player was just as dynamic and quite a bit tighter and faster in the low end. Direct was all so, so much more transparent that the Peach sounded veiled in comparison which doesn't surprise me due to all the wire and switch's and stuff the signal has to goe thru!
And BTW he later sold the Peach!
Also think about this most audio taper volume controls at mid seting are attenuating 80% of the incoming signal!
Yes great preamps can add life and body to the music! But unfortunately there are many that don't.
I would rather dump an extra couple of grand into a great CD player than a preamp in Peach's price range.
I also use DVD direct for outstanding sound as well!
I added a C4S current source to my driver stage of my power amp and a LED for bias the combination is very dynamic and very low distortion as well.
So its just 2 gain stages for my amp and the signal input is right next to the driver stage.
And I'm just loving it.
SET12
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I hate to say it, but I am getting the impression these guys were distinctly underwhelmed...
Dave
Dave,
Not really!
Its hard to really put a finger on them and comment about this and that! with out having them in ones own environment and perhaps a variety of electronics.
But I do know enough to recognize a superior speaker when I hear it whether or not it may be using the electronics of my choice or the set up is up to par.
They truely do some amazing things!
I think the Heritage line can also!
Especially doing some of the things that I have done myself or as friends of mine have!
The Heritage line hasn't been around for 60 plus yrs for nothing!
While I wasn't over whelmed I was neither under whelmed.
SET12
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NEW YEARS RESOLUTION
I REFUSE TO BASH OR FLAME ANYONES PERSONAL CHOICE OF GEAR REGARDLESS OF MY THOUGHTS ON SAID GEARI like your New Years Resolution, Well said!
I to was in the same boat once. I got into DIYing designed and built my own amps modified my Forte's with world class crossover components and have never enjoyed audio more!
SET12
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Was hoping for a bit more of a review from the attendees but I expect most folks are probably not in that mode yet. Damon it was cool of you to host this to give folks an opportunity they'll likely not get otherwise, at least for some time. I would genuinely love to hear these. So guys when you get the time give us a good written interpretation this was a rare oportunity.
If you have some specfic area that you'd like to know more about
I'd try and give you an answer as to my thoughts! Never the less its a
very interesting loudspeaker for sure!SET12
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Check this site out as well!
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
I am using the Duelund VSF copper in the midrange of my Forte's and feel its the best cap that I have ever heard!
Its extremely natural very dynamic, heads above the Mundorf Silver/gold MKP I previously was using its everything that Tony Gee at Humble Homemade Hifi says it is IMO.
I haven't heard Teflon but I'd like to.
A pair of Duelunds set me back $250 on sale at
http://www.partsconnexion.com/catalog/CapacitorsFilm.html
Absolutely worth every penny!
SET12
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Damon,
Thanks for the great time and the opportunity to listen to your World Class Palladium 39F's.
A few thoughts!
To describe their sound is tough! It is unlike anything that I have heard.
Without a doubt these seem like the smoothest Klipsch's I have heard from Klipsch ever.
The top end is very sweet. Some credit of course is due to the Aragon 2005 amp which is remarkably smooth for SS IMO.
Mids were very defined some would say very close to neutral perhaps the best Klipsch has come up with ever.
The bass was very taut, with very good pitch resolution.
When listening to rock I felt the Palladium's had a great sense of
focus for its bass line resolve you certainly could make out many parts
of a drum kit easier than many other types of speakers.Interestingly SWL was there briefly and commented very strongly that he felt they needed the subs. An amplifier, preamplifier with greater warmth might alleviate that sense of need like the Peach II that SWL owned and auditioned in my system it has a lot of warmth of course there are many other alternatives.
But in the end its all about your satisfaction and no one elses.
The cabinets are beautiful and there are no resonance issues that I could tell of. They virtually disappeared.
Overall the speaker shows a lot of promise.
Certainly I think they are a world class speaker capable of serving music well with the finest of electronics Tube or SS.
One needs to audition them with a variety of electronics I'd certainly
would like to hear them with a variety of tube gear and better digital,
Like the Rega CD player that had substantially more body and warmth which seemed to served the music
better IMO.Finally in the end, My hats off to the Klipsch Engineering Staff! Well done [Y]
Thanks Again for the fine grilled brats you are a Grill Master!
SET12
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artto,
It would of been fun talking to you about your MB3045 amps, They are great amps, Also your Furman as I use a pair of them myself!
SET12
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I have a quick question - I am looking to upgrade my caps from their stock caps. My LaScalas were built in the mid 70's and use AA Crossovers. I went on Ebay and found someone selling a complete set for the AA's and they are the same caps that Bob uses in his crossovers (Sonicaps).
The person and I got to talking and he (or she) told me that when they upgraded their caps, the sonicaps sounded noticably worse than the original caps and that I should use caution when upgrading. They told me that I should spring for more expensive caps as that is what they had to do. Has anyone upgraded their caps and noticed a degrade in sound quality?
Basically, what I don't want to do is spend money if I'm going to get lower sound quality. Please give me advice.
Also, There is a very nice member on the forum that has some solen caps that I'm about to buy. Any thougts on these?
I have Forte 1's with extensive modifications that would be considered extreme by some. I did not change the basic design because I felt the balance was good to begin with.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340
IMO the finest network that I have heard with LaScala's is the ALK network.
http://www.alkeng.com/klipsch.html
I can't listen long to any stock LaScala as the balance is no where near to my taste.
The advantage to this network is that it allowsyou to adjust the mid's to your taste which really does absolute wonders IMO for many areas of the LaScala's sound one of which is the perception of warmth which I highly prize in this digital age.
I support Bob's work but when it comes to LaScala's ALK is where its at for me.
You can build these yourself for half of what it would to purchase them. The plans are at the ALK site.
There are two interesting sites for cap sound.
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
http://www.tempoelectric.com/caps.htm
And all I can tell you is every component change that I have done
(caps,inductors,autotransformers) has been very audiable. Then again I
don't have much in the way of the signal path!Good Luck [Y]
SET12
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I'm a yes for the 9th.
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OK, sounds like the 9th is firming up. Should we try to cook brats or something as well?
Brats!!!! You just hit a home run! Throw in a little potato salad and and you'll have a standing ovation!! [Y]
SET12
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OK folks, so far the most interest seems to be the 9th or 10th of August. Who all is still in?
Hi damonrpayne,
Since I'm in your neck of the woods, I and another Klipsch owner would like to attend on the 9th of Aug. with last choices being Aug. 30th or 31st.
I envy your listening room!
And congrats on your purchase [Y]
I'm looking forward to hearing them!
SET12
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SWL,
34 yrs ago I walked into a Sansui dealership that had Sansui's top of the line integrated amp the Sansui AU9500 a monster amp as big as a suit case. It was a great sounding amplifier the last from one of their best engineers! As Fenderbenders site suggests! But at this age it would likely need capacitor replacements due to high ESR #'s from sheer age.
Same with my favorite vintage Marantz Poweramp the Marantz 500 that I felt had few peers.
SET12
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So I guess that means I'll be shopping for a new reciever/amp/etc around October then?
Nah, you'll be ready for some tubes by then ....... (Think Scott, Dynaco, Eico, Fisher) ......... dam voices ..... EH !!!
I think oldbuckster hit the nail on the head!
I vote for the Eico! By virtue of its reputation. And I recently saw a schematic of its power supply and noticed that the output stage runs right off the rectifier something that I don't see to often. This how the Eico generates a very good jump factor! I once had a hunch with my buddies Pilot amp that had a 100 ohm resistor in the power path its purpose of course was to get rid of noise but as I found that has a cost and even chokes do to! Anyway I took the resistor out and wired it just like the Eico ( this can be done because push-pull cancels noise anyway) we listened! He looked at me I looked at him he said to me "if it gets any better I'm going to cream my pants"
Heres that amp that was an Integreated Pilot that needed to much restoration to its front end. I saw a simply EL84 power amp with enough sensitivity to run CD direct or use a preamp if one wants. So for 500$ including the amp a few new parts and a little elbow work it was restored.
Its just a walnut wood skirt and a custom cut brass top from a local metal shop. The same can be done with a lot of vintage amps. It only takes a friend with a few skills to help out as I helped my buddy with his here.
Just something to think about!
SET12
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With Mod's, They have scaled mountains for me! Check my thread out for a climb where few Forte's have gone before
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340
SET12
Wow, serious stuff there. How much did those mods cost you? I'm quite pleased with mine right now, so no plans for modification any time soon (besides some kind of grilles for the passives in back).
I just created a new thread today with a relevant topic, and it's regarding my quest for a reasonable amp for these since my HK 430 isn't healthy.
You are quite correct! Its quite serious stuff and has been very educational and enlightening.
As for cost I have about what the Forte's sold for new in parts alone! But as far as what the performance is worth! its easily worth many, many times what I have invested. Considering that your Forte's are near 20 yrs old I would consider replacing the caps at least perhaps with Sonicaps or check with Bob Crites or others on this forum that do crossover mod's it will be well worth it. As far as a grill for the passive I would be careful as to not restrict air flow to it as it may very well effect your low frequency extension.
As far as an amplifier I personally prefer tubes on Klipsch's, For a beginner if you can find one of these I think you'll be in heaven. Of course their are others you might consider or you might DIY your own.
But check this out http://home.earthlink.net/~eico_hf81/
SET12
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With Mod's, They have scaled mountains for me! Check my thread out for a climb where few Forte's have gone before [Y]
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340
SET12
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My Ah Njoe Tjoeb 4000 has a volume control on the remote.
Jay
Have you tried running the CD player and using the volume instead of a preamp? I have been wondering about this for a long time but never bought one.
Does anyone know the minimum and maximum gain of CD players with volume controls?
Seti,
I have been running CD direct for the past 6-7 yrs with outstanding success, I recently had a forum member insert a peach preamp in my system and I have to say I held my breath as I knew that if I liked what I heard I was going to be designing a line-stage for myself!
The peach is a very musical performer but not in the league of the best that I've heard. What I heard from the peach was very tubey bass lines and a very substantial reduction in transparency although it was very pleasant to listen to my standards are higher than what it was able to deliver me. Which didn't surprise me when you consider what the audio signal has to travel through! When my player Direct is connected virtually at the input tube of my amps. I also did not hear much in the way of extended dynamics. When my player was reinserted the bass lines were much more taught and controlled. But the transparency was so much greater as to really put a smile on my face.
I think I have the right conditions for CD direct to be successful and that is having a powerful player like my Sony X77ES which is very substantially well built at 37lbs. My players volume does go to zero although it is not remote controlled the resultant sound quality is high enough for me to get out of my chair to change it if need be.
Another key to success is to have a power amp with sufficient gain, my own SET amps have about 25db of gain that's about 500mv in for 10 watts out at an 8 ohm load most of my listening is upper 80db-low 90db levels that's 9:30-10:30 on my volume control and upper 90's at 12 o'clock my player can clip my SET amps at the 1-2 o'clock range. The volume control runs from 8 o'clock to 4 o'clock and the higher the control runs the lower the output impedance (12 o'clock is about 5k out) of course also one should use short interconnects although I use 2 meter ones with no apparent issues, my input impedance is 500k on my amps.
With the modifications that I've done to my Forte's and especially since I have added the Duelund capacitors to my mid-range of my outboard crossover networks the resultant sound quality has been just stellar for me.
As far as voltage out of players that are designed to drive direct there's really no limit to what they can do in contrast to a line stage. They can be designed to give as much gain as most line-stages, of the players I've seen 5-10 volts out is not uncommon and of course at a lower output impedance as well!
SET12
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I lean with Oldie on the tubes issue.
Let's see... In the 1940's - 1960's, they used tubes. Then, a marvelous breakthrough.... the transistor. Virtually, the entire industry shifts to transistors, leaving tubes behind in the dust. Then, some nostalgic people with business savvy realize: "Hey, tubes have very little competition. Let's say how great they were and mark them up higher than before." If the tubers were to try and enter the transistor market, they'd be swallowed whole - and that's why they don't. The marvel over tubes must be more in the marketing. Kind of like LP's. People will sit and listen to pops and crackles on LP's and still be convinced crackles sound better than CD's.
The same phenomenon occurs with cars. How many people out there say with respect to old cars, "They don't build them like they used to." To that, I say, "Thank God!." I have a 1953 Buick Special and a 1960 Bel-Air. I like them very much. But as far as a reliable, comfortable ride, they are far behind my 2006 Sierra.
Keep on tubin'! It's just an opinion.
(Also, caps are very worth it. Oldie, being the sceptic I am, I have to disagree on the caps issue.)
Nice discussion going on guys! But I'm LOL on a few of the comments here!
First off I'd like to say I heard that 60% of high end audio gear is tubes last I heard. And of course your not going to see tubes in retail stores like Best Buy or Circuit City.
As far as to why I use tubes and don't use SS! Well, SS bores me frankly! I like harmonics of tubes myself and I like the dynamics watt for watt in well designed tube gear.
I also prefer the 1930's Single-Ended circuits myself.
As to the marvel of tubes! Marketing? Speaking for myself, hardly! 18 yrs ago at a Chicago Audio Society Meeting with Dennis Had, I heard his Cary 805 SET amp
equipped with a 211 Transmitting tube driven by a 300B and a 6SL7 a circuit right out of the 1930's, it has just 25 watts but what those 25 watts can do is story on to itself.I have owned some pretty powerful SS amplifiers over the yrs but the Cary left my jaw on the floor! It produced one of the most gargantuan sound stages I have ever heard. This was from the Hell Freezes Over CD Hotel California cut, The slam factor left me thinking that Dennis's amp was more powerful sounding than any of the very good SS amps that I have owned or heard. And whats interesting about my statement is that there were reviewers that went on record at the time and said the same thing. Also the Cary 805 made the front cover of Stereophile Magazine with the Krell KSA250 with the statement "If one is right the other must be wrong"
Yes I to like CD's and I think they are getting better but there's just no comparison of CD to my two box DIY MC Phono Preamplifier and my CD player is pretty top shelf built like a Rolls Royce for 2000$ and weighs in at 37lbs here's a photo of part of my Phono's 900 Joule supply. Are there bigger commercially? Yes!
As far as tube reliability one of my mono block SET amps had a bridge rectifier go out on it after 10yrs of running.
I had the issue diagnosed in a few minutes and with a trip to my local electronic parts store I had the amp back up and running within 2 hrs. If it needed a transformer it wouldn't be down more than a day or two for me. I'd say my gear is pretty reliable and better yet I can fix it myself.
The cap issue! Well I built an outboard crossover after I had a friend replace his stock LaScala networks with his DIY version of ALK networks. What I heard inspired me to build mine which I lived with for several yrs until recently after reading about this guys experience with caps and their sound.
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
I was using Hovlands with Polystyrene bypasses, And went with Mundorfs Silver Foil/Oil's for the tweeters, and a Mundorf Gold/Silver foil for the midrange but I desired to hear the Duelund's Copper so I bought a pair for 250$ for my Midrange yes its a lot of money! but IMO they do exactly what humblehomemadehifi said they do! I've heard a lot of caps but these are one of the very best! And IMO leave many others including the Mundorfs behind!
Inductors are audible to! I recently had the Solen Hepa Litz Inductor based on ALK's testing in place of my Northcreek Inductors but found the Solen a little to bright.
The cool thing about having outboard networks is that you can tune to taste low ,mid, and highs or even an overall effect by changing my amps single coupling cap. Its sort of like one friend saying "Your tuning from the inside out" Yeah I'm having a lot of fun and learning in the process1
I had no idea how profound it really was until I did this work! Worth every penny!
And as one of my local audio club members Rzr likes to say!
"But everyone has a different approach, thats what makes us all so stoopid."
"Cheers"
SET12
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Hi to the group, I am updating several crossover capacitors in my Cornwalls and Belles. I would like some advice on what brand has a good product at a reasonable price.Also is there any advantage of a 1% over a 5% or will a 10% do. I do want to replace these caps with ones that are as good as the original or better.I notice there are several different types and manufactures. Im sure I should be asking other questions but I am also sure the GURUS out there will inform me.I have been asking a lot of questions on this forum and have been getting a lot of good answers. Your input is valuable to me. Thanks a bunch, Bill
Hi Bill,
Welcome to the Forum, I guess I might by many to be considered extreme! in what I have done with my crossovers but I have found the investment worth every penny I have spent so far!
I guess it largely depends on how much your interest in performance is!
Check these sites out on cap sound!
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
http://www.tempoelectric.com/caps.htm
If your looking for just a simple up date I can certainly recommend Bob Crites I found his Titanium Tweeter and Autotransformer to a great upgrade! And he offers full network upgrades as well.
I also like the sound of ALK crossovers which the midrange is user adjustable and IMO is a very valuable tool to dial your systems performance in with!
SET12
Thinkin about B&W
in Technical/Restorations
Posted
Tiger really hit it on the head! It can be simple!
I'm a case in point!
I once was like Jordan had a lot of gear my 2 ch combined with surround!
I wanted more from my 2 ch!
It took a friend of mine to point out all the extra wiring withprocessors and bypass switches and such was degrading what I was after.
We then hooked everything straight 2 ch no surround stuff.
I remember him standing with his arms full of wire just grinning at the
improvement of my 2 ch. I of which had my jaw on the floor!
Many of my local clubs members have just gone back to 2 channel. Or they have 2 separate systems.
Some manufactures like Mark Levinson have Source Selector Switches that switch both hot and grounds!
You might ask why? Well they know that components down line can bleed
both DC and AC across interconnects degrading the sound of a given
source being used.
I like surround but I have been very content with DVD direct (with
variable outs) into my mono blocks throwing out a huge sound stage in
the process at a higher level of transparency then what I've heard from
many processors.
I have put my money into the core of my system instead of a line preamp
I stuck more into my CD player and instead of a Surround Processor a
higher quality DVD player.
Instead of many speakers I stuck the money into my crossovers with the
resultant sound being as smooth as the Palladium's that I heard at
Damon's home and I'm not kidding!
I like B&W's as well. But my networks have made my Fortes competitive on a level I never dreamed of!
And they are the most fun I've had in 35 yrs of audio.
SET12