NoMjolnir

Thanks for the reply prof. Thump. You know, Klipsch is really popular in Norway after the release of Reference IV, the new line and aggresive prizing has put the spotlight on the brand. I realize that my issue with the RF-83 can very well be linked to placement and room interraction, as opposed to the actual voicing of the speaker itself. However, my impression from our current living room setup is that the RF-83 is more forward and edgy compared to the RC-64. Don't get me wrong, I really like the RF-83 in my current application, but I LOVE the RC-64. I won't write the RF-83 off that easily though, my plan is to start off with the RC-64 / RF-83 combo when the HT is done. Then I can see how the combo works in a large, dedicated and acustically treated room. Who knows, I might end up with three RF-83's in the front. (SMX perf curved screen) Since I love the sound of the RC-64 my incentive was to have two more and, and as you mentioned, have an identical LCR array up front. Your comments on the KL-650 has made it clear to me that this will be a battle between 3 x RF-83 vs 3 x RC-64, I would'nt want to comprimize on the incredible dynamics I'm experiencing with the ref IV line. [6] Follow up question: Can I baffle mount the 3 x RC-64, is it designed to work well in 2pi? How would this work, would it improve the dynamics even more? The room will have heavy bass trapping in addition to first reflection point treatment. Hypothetically: Can I stack RS-62's ? [6]

We're in the process of building a new house, in the basement we'll have a HT of 24' L x 20' W x 8' H. The subwoofer will be a front positioned LLT. So with that said, what we need is advice on LCR to handle >80hz . Currently we're using RC-64 and RF-83. I prefer the neutral timber of RC-64 as opposed to the RF-83 so I'm thinking three RC-64 across the front, with the horizontal alignment of drivers there should be less floor bounce resulting in a smoother frequency response under 300hz. The competition would have to be the KL650 thx. Does the KL-650 offer any advantages over the RC-64 for LCR use, the specs are less impressive but I guess that's not so important overall ?

After I got home from work I worked on placement and most importantly placement of the acoustic panels. No EQ though, I prefer the sound without it.Since the 83's are so tall and the ceiling of my current apartment only >7' I believe that reflections off the ceiling was the main culprit here. In the ceiling I placed one of my 60x120x10cm bass traps in the first reflection point for both speakers, this was the key. When I had it all dialed in I sat back and enjoyed the best sound I've ever experienced. I've had alot of speakers in this room, dali, b&w, audiovector etc, but none has sounded as realistic as these obelisks. Theres really no need for more adjectives, the only words I need to describe the sound is; realistic and dynamic. With movies, man these speakers rock with the RC-64, how can it get better than this? (note to self: get the surrounds ) Now I almost feel like I'm treating my LCR bad for not having a Pio elite instead of the 1015 These speakers really stand out aesthetically, brutal and powerful yet beautiful, something special indeed. Thank you Klipsch, I am proud to own this great piece of art and engineering.

I've noticed what you describe, most CD's I have are much worse than a good DVD soundtrack. The SQ of the music in LOTR and Star wars f.ex is astonishing. Yesterday I only tried three .flac CD's, Iron Maiden - "Seventh son of a seventh son" and "A matter of life and death" in addition to Nightwish "Century Child". These are recordings are very good and some of the best in my CD collection, still I noticed the "harshness". I've got one hour left before I'm finished at work, then the speakers have played non-stop for 9 hours. I'll try the music listed above again and some high quality DVD's. Btw, thanks for your input so far guys.

Acoustics: The room has many reflective surfaces and is bright when not treated. When were having a movie night or Im listening to music I have some acoustic panels that i place around in the room. I used these yesterday when i first listened to the 83's Equipment: I use a pioneer 1015 and htpc with spdif out from a soundblaster x-fi. All music in .flac. Settings: The speakers set to small and crossover at 80hz, the same goes for stereo. I've tried the stereo pure direct mode but the harshness is the same. This is the same setup that I've used with my RB-75 and RF-82. I noticed no harshness from the 75's but they were bought used. The 82's were bought last September, and I remember thinking that they were harsh in the beginning as well. I made a post about it http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/796755.aspx ...and the conclusion was to not bi-amp with my hk avr 7000 and try different toe-in after some good advice from DrWho. He also suspected that the acoustics of the room had a big part to play in the resulting harshness. After a following the guidelines of DrWho and when some time had passed the 82's sounded smoother and the highs were not harsh. I'm not a big believer in speaker break in, Ive seen tests showing minimal change in T/S parameters but nothing big. Perhaps its just a question of me getting used to the sound, but if that is the case i don't understand why I'm perceiving the highs as harsh.

Thats what I did today ! I got the beautiful beasts today ! Thanks for your input guys, however there is a slight problem... So I hooked them up, ran auto eq for distance and spl, and finally measured the response with an SPL meter to find the best phase setting on the sub. To my great disappointment they are shriller than my RF-82's..... I do pray that this is just a matter of break-in.... I'll let em play all day while were at work tomorrow, hopefully this will do the trick...

Thanks for the input guys. Loud&Clear: The dealer i mentioned is the only one in a 300 miles radius at least lets just say that Klipsch isnt that common here in Norway. The RF-83 will cost me 3,260 and the RF-63 2,580 in dollars, and thats with a 20% discount. Considering the price difference I think its better to go with the 83's if they are only slightly better since speakers is'nt something you change as often as electronics f.ex. Ive read everything I could find on RF-83 vs RF-63 on this board, and it seems that most think the 83's are the clearly better speaker whereas some say that the difference is minimal with the 63's being the more neutral speaker and a better match for the RC-64. Any further observations and/or comments will be helpful for me in this decision though.

I currently have a RC-64 and a pair of RF-82 up front. The sub is an SVS PB-12 plus with xover at 80hz with all speakers set to small. Even though the RF-82's are great, they are no match for the realism and smoothness that the RC-64 provide. A local electronics shop has just started selling Klipsch and I had the pleasure of behold and experience the RF-83's. Sadly they did not have the 63's in their showroom. The 83's were marvelous even though the room was heavily reflective and bright together with "boominess". After some change of toe-in and seating position I got a good impression of what they can do and there is no doubt in my mind that Im getting a replacement for the 82's. The question is of course wether the replacements are the 83's or the 63's.The speakers are pretty much equal according to specs, 1600 vs 1650 crossover and 175 vs 250watts of power handling. Size is no issue. I will be employing subwoofage in one form or the other, and all speakers set to small measures best and sounds best to me. Were getting a house with a dedicated room( with planned IB ) roughly 21x13x9 feet not to long down the road so all my purchases are with that installation in mind. So... Do I really need the RF-83's, if so how are they better than the 63's when crossed over at 80hz? Thanks in advance fellow Klipsch enthusiasts!

Fish: The preamp is infact the Pioneer vsx 1015. Im not going to spend money on a seperate preamp since I believe that the speakers and the room account for >90-95% of the sound you hear as long as one has sufficient power. Because of this my money will go into speakers and woofing for the time being, in addition to the dedicated ht room once the house is finished.

Thanks for the input DrWho, I'll definitely try to run LCR off the the pio. I've measured the bass respons using a radioshack analog spl meter and excel charts. I have achieved best response I can with my limited placement options and the speakers and sub are in phase. The "room" is infact connected living room, kitchen and hallway and the size is approximately 27feet long, 18f wide and (only ) 7f from floor to ceiling. The walls are drywall, with parquet (spelling?) floor and leather couches, so there are little absorption from the interior except some carpets and and the thin drapes. (and myself, when I have clothing on ) I know the room is far from ideal, were living in an appartment while the house is being built. This is the reason why I have limited placement options and as I've mentioned earlier, only bring out my DiY panels for critical listening or movie nights, "she who must be obeyed" has laid down the law you see. I have a creative soundblaster xfi extreme music soundcard on order for my htpc so I'll give the analog outs on that a try as well. My brother in law just bought the behringer 8800 mic and feedback destroyer, I plan to borrow those and try RoomEQWizard to see what the native response of the room is and after that I'll see how each trap affects the response. This should give me optimal placement for my 10 traps. DrWho whats your take on my idea of plugging the ports on the mains as mentioned above? PS: I'm in dialogue with a guy who wants to buy my RF-82's, if I sell them I'll be getting the RF-63's.

NoMjolnir: Im bi-amp'ing with the Pio 1015vsx, the surround back channels are used in addition to front L R. DrWho wrote: There's your problem. He also wrote about this in another post if you care to read the whole thread.

Ok, Tried to power the RF-82 with the HK, and the RC-64 with the Pio. I couldnt detect any difference in sound quality yet. I have yet to test this setup at loud volumes though, so I cant say for sure until Ive had a good listening session ofcourse. If there is any difference in SQ this would be noticable at loud volumes as the amp has to deliver more, IMO. Personally I do not think amps sound different unless they are driven beyond their ability or the amp is conciously voiced by the manufacturer. There is also the issue of the bi-amping function of the pio as DrWho mentioned ofcourse. What did help alot was less toe-in, the high frequency issues are almost none existant. Another improvement was more bass trapping. Ive got some DIY bass traps made from rockwool, each bass trap is 120x60x10 centimeters. Currently I have one straddled in each front corner, one in the rear left corner, and some in reflection points. Adding one straddled in the middle of the front wall/floor also did alot for the accuracy and detail of bass. A question, the RF-82's have two bassports in the back. They are, as mentioned above, xo at 80hz. I presume the tuning of the ports is in the >30 <40hz region and any phase anomalies would occur in this frequency area. Will plugging these do any good? The output of the front speakers are down >12db in this area because of the xo but I thought the output from bassports might interfer with the subwoofers which are located to the left of the left front speaker.

Really? I didnt know that. Why would they bother to add the feature if it's detrimental to the sound quality? Never thought about this, but I'm guessing they want to appeal to 5.1 users since those are predominant and people usually have tower fronts. Good marketing trick I guess. Well, one learn new things every day. Im going to try the HK as power amp for the fronts tomorrow. The center will be driven by the pioneer in this scenario to spread the work load. I will also experiment with toe-in. Right now the fronts are pointed directly at the sweetspot, I can attenuate som hi freq with less toe-in. On another note and to put my issue in perspective, I want to give you one concrete example. With every other setup I've had really harsh S sounds in vocals and electric guitars. The Klipsch setup however has reduced almost all harshness to vocals, but the higher registry of electric guitars are still annoying, but less so.

Well, With left and right channel at 0db and center at + 0.5db I play movies at -15db and music up to -9db approximately.

@Raider I see, not as easy as I first imagined at all. I might just buy the RF-83. @DrWho Im bi-amp'ing with the Pio 1015vsx, the surround back channels are used in addition to front L R. Ive measured the response and adjusted the crossover so the sub/speakers are in phase. Interesting read though! Thanks for all the response fellow Klipschters. I'll try som room treatments and borrow a good power amp to see if it helps. Appreciate your input.

When I listen to music in 2.1 at loud volumes the sound is muddy, undefineable and shrill. Don't get me wrong, Its great sound, it just has these elements. As I switch to pro logic music in 3.1 with the RC-64 these artefacts are greatly reduced but still present. Strange thing is that I hear the symptoms at lower levels as well, just not as profound. Still, I have to add that Klipsch are the best speakers Ive heard in my home. I've had B&W, Dali, good DIY kit etc. Regarding amplification, what would be "enough" for the RF-82's with their 150w power handling? Im a bit limited to brands since I live in Norway so Outlaw f.ex is not available.

"not meant to offend" No offense taken. You make a valid point. I could try the AVR7000 as power amplifier for the fronts and let the Pio drive only the center. The HK is a beast and should theoretically provide more juice than the slimmer Pio(wpc ratings doesnt mean much and I know the HK has a larger power supply based on weight alone). Another route would be some nice class D mono blocks or transistor based power amplification ala Rotel. Personally I think there might also be an issue with ringing because of all the reflective surfaces. Ill find out when I build more bass traps. Four of them will be used at first reflection points.

Yes, I only want to change the compression driver. Ive talked to my dealer about getting spare 1.25" drivers, just waiting to hear what they cost. Not too much response to my thread. I guess that means that either: a - my upgrade idea is moronic and impossible to implement with any success, or b - its a tricky question which requires more technical knowledge of the two different drivers than most possess. Thanks for the response so far guys. Are the RF-82's supposed to perform ~100db, on music at 3.5 meters to listening position, or am I driving them too hard?

The horns of the RF-82 and RC-64 are identical in. I havent opened the boxes and checked how the drivers are mounted though.

Ladies and gents, Well, its most noticable with music. I like to crank it up to around 95-100db @ listening position 3.8 meters from the speakers. I bi-amp the RF-82 with a pioneer vsx 1015vsx and the RC-64 is run by an Harman Kardon AVR 7000. If its not the driver being overdriven it can also be too much reverb? I do have many reflective surfaces in my living room, but I do try to place absorption around when Im doing critical listening. Currently I have six bass traps 120x60x10 cm but these are placed in corners. The plan is to add another six of which 4 will be placed in first reflection spots.

Gentlemen, I just got the RF-82 LR and the RC-64. All are crossed over at 80hz with two stacked SVS PB-10's. I prefer to listen to music in 3.1 using the LCR and subs and this is where I run into problems with my manins. Ive noticed that the RF-82s will start to distort long before the RC-64 both on movies and music. What Im thinking is, since I dont need more bass extension, why not replace the 1" titanium driver with the 1.25" found in the top floorstanders and center? I would have to attenuate the 1.25" driver since Im figuring it will have a higher sensitivity rating. Perhaps lower the crossover point as well with some adjustment to the filter.? It certainly seems to be a cheaper route than paying 2,5 times the amount to get the RF-83's just to get the 1.25" driver. I call upon your collective input to help me solve my predicament. One more thing, does anyone have the parameters of the new 1" and 1.25" in addition to the 1.75" of the latter 7 series? Are there perhaps other compression drivers you would recommend which can work well in the new tractrix horn?

Im 26 so I doubt I hear higher than 17-18k hz

The journey continues... Thanks to tdkamerica I was able to get in contact with a German dealer. The prices are great and he was very service minded. I have two options 3x RC-7 LCR, fronts 90 degree turn of horn or, slightly more expensive RC-64 + RF-63 Judging by the official stats the new generation will be a db or two louder but is the 1,25" driver as good as the 1,75" or will the bigger compression driver result in less distortion at the same spl? According to these measurements http://www.hometheatermag.com/louds...sch/index1.html The 3dB point is at 69 Hz, and the 6dB point is at 58 Hz. As opposed to the official -+3db at 48hz of the RC-7. Your thoughts and opinions please?

Thanks tkdamerica, I've sent Mr Enge an email. There are dealers in Norway but the prices are rudiculous. Lets just say that an RC-64 will run me 1400$ minus shipping.

During my research of Klipsch and the solution I'd want for my living room I came across this: http://www.hometheatermag.com/subsatloudspeakers/1103klipsch/index1.html These measurements shows that the RC-7 has extension down to -3db @ 69hz and -6db @ 58hz contrary to the official stats which state +-3db @ 48hz. It seems that getting a hold of one or three RC-7s is going to be quite difficult , everyone Ive emailed at Ebay reply with the same "NO international sales". What Im thinking is buying the RC-64 and using RF-82 as mains. How will this combo stack up against RC-7 and RB-75 as mains? The RF-82 use a 1" compression driver whereas the RB-75 uses a 1,75" one. Are the new compression drivers as good or better than the old ones though they are smaller? How does the 1,25" of the RC-64 stack up against the 1,75"? The RB-75's are rated at 97db and 150w ph. The RF-82's are rated at 98db and 150w ph. Extension goes to RF-82. Since I cant seem to get of even one RC-7 im seriously thinking of getting the Ref Gen. 4 since theyll be voice matched across the front. Your thoughts please.