AltmanEars
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Greg relative to Khorn improves I had a chance to go to your website which in turn lead me to the Klipsch museum. There is an odd speaker (Khorn) with the tweeter mounted in the throat of the squawker under a sign that says Mahoghany Klipschorn. One really wonders if this is/was an improvement to the Khorn.
The second improvement which is not generally thought of as an improvement in the US is to mount the passive crossover in a dead/hardened box outside of the speaker. Living voice, Tannoy and a few other highend folks think this works...
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The plot below is interesting. It is the impedance modulii of the K33e (1980s vintage) in free air (hanging from a wire) and the same mounted in the folded unit with the folded unit tucked into a basement corner (all three sides poured concrete). The beneficial effect of a concrete corner is signficant. The radiation resistance provided by the horn is at a maximum when placed in a location like this. The loading provided by 2x4 studs + blueboard + plaster veneer is not as good as shown below. Note that the horn likes to work into the 100-200Hz range(!). The unit that was used in the measurements is one that allows for changes to the throat opening. The slot was a 3" wide one shown in the pics.
So the takeway here is that the Klipchorn works best in a concrete corner.
That pretty interesting but does it address the user who has the 2x4 studs +++ and concrete which is typical of your average man cave.
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I do qualify to join. I can trace the ancestry back to 1685 whence a distant relation relocated to colonial Maryland from Hull, in England. I did belong to DeMolay and it was pretty much just ceremonial stuff. I attended a 'tea party' last July 4th if that matters. Aside from the prospect the connections might afford I don't see any advantage to joining this group. Now 'Sons of the Audio Revolution' might be more interesting.
Curious what does tea party have to do with NSSAR? For me the tea partys are a really good idea but then they tend to devolve into hideous displays like a recent one where Obama is chained and beaten in effigy. Thats not my brand of partriotism.
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I think you are missing all points. Which is fine. We are not talking about institutions devolving and the Palladium line nor the Jubilee line. For whatever reason, Klipsch has not upgraded the innerds of the K horn with the exception of crossover networks. The Heresys, The Cornwalls, The LaScalas and even the RF 7's have been extensivly reworked in recent years and the prices have not reflected the 'Mother Linn Upgrade" you speak of......
Have you heard the VTRAC'S?
Sorrry I misunderstood you note---would'nt be the first time...I actually thought you were commenting on why Klipsch would not engineer something like the VTRAC. I didnt know my comments would draw such vitriol.
I'm not the target market for the VTRAC's since all agree they dont sound quite as good as the old outmoded Duo's let alone the new Duos let alone the New trio's. If I wanted to buy a better speaker than a Klipsch I would be buying that speaker.
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The subtext is --- I have tons of money and I have already picked out some components I think are really cool, though I'm not sure what they would work with... Help me find some expensive speakers I can shoehorn into my office and arent so good that they require careful matching with the rest of my stuff.
I'd go with the JBL's so that you don't have to be subjected to this crap.
Not sure we have to devolve into that kind of language. I'm also not sure how accurate it is since the Shindo and Yamamoto owners seem to be really decent guys. The engineering and voicing is a love it leave it type of thing.
The observation though remains --- and I'll say it another way. In practice at the higher levels of sound reproduction you are buying an amp/speaker combination. Its pretty rare that an amp which works really well for an electrostatic speaker would be optimal for use with a very efficient dynamic speaker so even if you are willing to pay stupid money for a speaker your results might not be so hot...
Another observation many will disagree with is that most speakers which like a bunch of watts and require massive amplification arent particularly good speakers.
Said another way a cheaper speaker and a really good low powered amp may actually sound better than using the existing amps on a speaker that likes loads of watts.
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I know Dan very well and I am in no way speaking for him, nor defending him. I took from his post that he is questioning Klipsch for not updating the K horn configuration to reflect todays tecnology. Larger horn throat diamaters, larger and newer driver tecnology just to name a few. We all know the heated battles that have insued in this forum over crossovers (Roy and Al K.), so I will leave that alone.
Dan is a purist, he has built his own amps, preamp and power supply and he is barely warming up to CD's much less MP3 players..... I am the purchaser of his beloved Walnut K-Horns and it indeed, pained him to sell them. I too had the VTRAC's in my home and hearing is believing. I want the mod also, but cash is a little thin right now due to 2 daughters weddings!
Marvel, I believe that the comparison of 1975 to the show 5 years ago is exactly his point. Why has Klipsch rested on the config of the Mighty Khorn? At $22-$2400 for the VTrac upgrade, I bet Klipsch could pull off this type of upgrade for much less money, wouldn't you think?
These guys have done the Klipsch faithful a great service so why not defend them. After a while all hifi companies become institutions. In most cases institutions devolve and do stupid arrogant things. A properly designed Klipsch upgrade would be significantly more expensive than Greg's solution. Klipsch has to amortize engineering costs. Greg doesnt... Moreover, if Klipsch officially offered a new up to date package they would then need to position it vis a vis the Palladium line. No reason to kick Klipsch in the chops Linn went through the same thing. Everyone and their mother had a tweek to the Linn turntable. Most upgrades were mixed. The big mother Linn upgrade was nearly forty years in the making and is hideously priced.
P.S. Dean I read that link before posting and there is nothing there that speaks too positively about how thoroughly the package is engineered. Please don't read that to say I think the product is not fabulous. Engineering is a matter of degree. You may think trying a few types of plywood qualifies as state of the art materials engineering, while I think a more exhaustive exploration of fabrication and material choices is in order.
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I have NEVER EVER BLOWN a tweeter in an active system. This includes using the two highest powered Naim monoblocks amps directly wired to a cheap Linn tweeter. BUT THERE IS A BIG BUT --- All of my systems have electronic crossovers that have been professionally engineered by a top engineer for the exact drive unit I was using... BTW non of these systems even used a fuse...for reference the Naim amps can swing 400VA and the Linn Kan is only rated at a max of 80 watts when run passively...
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I think it is ironic that this guy uses the words 'merit' and 'mensa' in the same sentence. His comment reminds of Newt for some reason.
Funny I thought of that right after I wrote it... But I feel its more worthwhile gathering with a group of folks that have some inate shared talent or interest than those who share your background based solely upon heredity. So clearly I'm in the minority...
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Actually this thread has a really cool subtext --- if you dont read carefully you might miss it...
The subtext is --- I have tons of money and I have already picked out some components I think are really cool, though I'm not sure what they would work with... Help me find some expensive speakers I can shoehorn into my office and arent so good that they require careful matching with the rest of my stuff.
With a clean slate you would simply send your room dimensions to Shindo and Yamamoto and have them design speakers with really good drivers which work in your room and a custom amp and preamp that go with them. You would have your choice of two completely intgrated solutions which would likely sound really good. In the process you would save money even considering the ridiculous Shindo / Yamamoto prices.
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I'm just having fun with you guys --- lets leave it at I have a really nice active system at home and one at a business I own. I also have a fairly nice passive Klipschorn system. In fact I've owned an active system continuosly for 30 years.
I think I am trying to acheive something a bit different in sound than you guys so accept my apologies and pile on the capacitors...
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One can only guess at the dates but when your Grandmother was a member of DAR their claim to fame was racism and preventing Marion Anderson from singing at Constitution Hall.
The male version routinely meets with other identity groups such as Sons of Confederate Veterans.
If you find yourself asking in a forum should I join this group PM me if you have information --- the group is somewhat suspect. If you were asking if and how to join a merit based organization such as mensa you wouldnt think you needed a PM, would you???
Family values are important and irrespective of the past you should probably join an organization which is important to your family.
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Some of us are ingrates why cant we just go along with the crowd --- its so much easier.
1. It would be great to have some description of what the upgrade does and how it actually sounds rather than the somewhat derivative review in comparison to a speaker which has since been discontinued. (A speaker which now boasts its own fully engineered comprehensive upgrade package)
2. All I can determine from several questions and inquires is that the VtraC upgrade probably sounds better than some configurations of Khorns many of which had been "improved" by the owners prior to the VTRAC installation.
3. It is also clear from the reviews and the descriptions that the VTRAC upgrade is NOT a fully sorted/fully engineered product.
4. Integration of the VTRAC upgrade to the users existing system is the user's responsibility
5. The lack of engineering of the entire package really leaves the door open for numerous upgrades and cross selling --- good marketing Greg
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Without being a true weeny I cant really understand why noone seems to ask the following
1. what does the response curve of the VTRAC look like relative to the stock speaker 2009/10 vintage
2. what is the ultimate driver for the VTRAC? (what was tried)
3. isnt there a properly desgned crossover optimized for the VTRAC and if not when???
4. Is there a proper setup DVDorCD to mate the crossover/VTRAC and driver to a particular vintage bottom?
5. What material would be the optimal material for the driver mounting plate ---(brass is the rage in Japan)
6. what material is bestl for the actual horn. If wood what is the best wood
Of course even with none of these questions answered there is a great market for upgrades and I'm sure most people dont give a hoot...
Please, apologies to Greg and Dan --- none of this is meant as a criticism and I truly appreciate your efforts.
Finally an observation:
From reading the Klipsch forum I'm transported into a new parallel world and I've learned the following:
1. Any modification to a klipschorn that sounds like it should work does work and is better than the original unmolested Klipschorn
2. In general any driver which is more expensive than its Klipschorn counterpart works better than the Klipsch part even without modding the crossover.
3. I think my high school graduation gift of a Porsche 914-6 has permanently colored my view of the world cause I'd rather have that 914-6 back than a new Porsche Panamera
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JC:
I would think that in the interest of 'sound purity' one would avoid putting anything in the way of the driver. I am guessing you may give up some of the advantages of going active, such as more direct amplifier control of the driver. But, since I try to anticipate what could go wrong, I looked into it. The trade off now is the cost of various capacitors just to try various frequency points. I'm sure putting a capacitor in line with the driver is not 'free' of problems. That's why I was asking about the process.
I may just wing it and try it without anything until I know if I am going to stay active or go back to passive and until I gather more information on the topic. I figured the EE types around here could shed some light on the practice.
For obvious sound quality reasons you dont want a capacitor in the chain. esp with a really high efficiency speaker. As far as costs are concerned a really good capacitor can be really expensive (more than the xovers this guy is looking at) --- furthermore it can take literally months to test capacitors by ear as we found by a really particular Khorn user who recently wrote about his experiences.
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And now, some completely different questions. The project is now underway. I am waiting for the DC-ONE and I'll be able to actively cross my Khorns.
In light of the discussions of driver alignment etc, it seems the best thing to do is to use a single driver as much as possible. I am limited in the woofer to mid crossover by the Khorn design. However, my mid Trachorn with its JBL 2470 and the eminence APT-150 have quite a bit of overlap. That will allow me to set the high crossover point in a variety of places.
According to the JBL data, the 2470 can go up to 12 kHz and the Eminence can go down to 3.5 kHz. Ideally I would set the crossover as high as possible to keep the majority of sound coming from a single driver.
So, what do you guys recommend? I am very optimistic about this experiment and the flexibility I will have with the active crossover.
6K will probably do it...
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This was the best year ever...
1. Amy sent me a new pr of Khorns
2. Business was good so I could actually pay for them.
3. My Dr. found a few easily fixed problems which could have lead to early death or worse --- and we fixed them (please go for those check ups)
4. My business reached new heights for granting micro finance loans. (We are a for profit firm -- but most of the profit is going to charity)
5. We successfully trained our female english bulldog to stop humping visiting freinds
6. A really good passive preamp I thought was broken worked perfectly the last time I plugged it in...
7. I learned how to play squash and tennis with my non dominant hand
8. My last securities audit went well
9. I lost weight
10. I was able to contact a number of lost old freinds
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The ultimate el cheapo good sounding CD player would be the playstation one...model SCPH-101/2
10-25 at a thrift store. Google it there are many articles on this find...
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Your subject line really caught my eye. I listen to classical on my Khorns through a squeezebox and a Linn numerik. I have had many pals over to hear the same including a local classical DJ. To a person, folks think this is the highest quality musical reproduction they have heard. For some reason a live digital performance at MP3 bit rates sounds better than the highly processed classic CD's played through my $20,000 linn CD12. There really is no logical explanation for this but it is pretty dramatic...
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It is my understanding that the MEN220 is a "McIntoshized" Lyngdorf RP-1. McIntosh is downplaying the role of the room perfect software and in some communications has compared licensing RoomPerfect to licensing dolby... It should be pointed out that Mcintosh is a very conservative company with even more conservative customers. Customers who would scoff at using a Lyndorf RP1 are now very exited about the prospect of a Mcintosh box which is ostensibly the same...
There is a crossover built into the MEN220 and in the Lyngdorf. Originally this crossover was provided for bass management. Lyndorf believes the subwoofers should be stereo and against the walls. They (Lyngdorf) sell a sub which looks identical to a mini-jubilee bass bin.
I make these comments because with this type of technology the room correction software is everything and one wonders if Lyngdorf clients will have access to the new iterations of the RoomPerfect prior to Mcintosh clients.
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My advice is to listen to them all and make a decision by what you like the best. I know that these speakers are not easy to find a demo for, but still easier than buying and selling them.
The reason I buy and sell is because the larger the speaker you are dealing with the more the room comes into play. I find it fairly expensive to fly --- the way I do it...but for other's that may work a bit better. Also by buying all the gear knowing you are going to sell some of it you have less of a personal attachment to it... If you listen to 4 prs of speakers at four hifi shops and decide on one, your ego wants to validate your decision. For hifi the objective is to get the best sound in your room so listening in your room is the easiest option.
I am assuming Jedi can afford this gear and works really hard to afford it --- why be saddled with something you dont like just because you wanted to save a few thousand dollars???
It strikes me odd that Sothebys will allow you to take home (in fact they will deliver) a piece of artwork more expensive than all the speakers combined Jedi wants to hear, your local Porsche dealer will typically allow you to use a previously owned or demo car over the weekend yet somehow people who sell highend audio will not try to accomidate a willing customer with an at home demo of a 30K speaker...
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Wow you had such an anticeptic view of them I thought for sure you hadnt heard them...Sorry
That said dont you think this Jedi could find good use for a pr of Kensingtons in his room???
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For that size room (13 X 19) The JBL K2 99000 or the Klipsch Palladium would be optimum..
Maron judging from your comments on the Westy's am I correct in assuming you have not heard them in a room you are familiar with.
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Does time alignment matter? Yes.
Is it critical in a home listening environment? Maybe.
Is there any way to get it perfect without acoustically aligning the sources? No.Please elaborate --- you should be able to acheive perfect time alignment without acoustically aligning the sources. The cure (delays in the crossover) will tend to create other problems.
BTW if you get things perfectly aligned the speaker will become much more directional and lock in at one listening position.
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Thanks so far
Tony to answer your points. I have used many valve amplifiers in the past and want to now stay with solid state. Either keep my Ayre MXRs (which I know for sure would go well with K2 or Westminster) or move to low power Valvet (25 watt monos) still using my Wadia 27ix as a dac and not as a pre-amp. I know I would need to buy a pre (thinking Mac C46) as I want to have TV/blu-ray through the system as well. Room is 13ft x 19ft. I digital stream my music so I have no cd player but have 2000cds on hard drive accessed via Mac Book Pro into the Wadia 27ix dac. Music is in the main ambient (Brian Eno et al), World Music, Bob Dylan, David Sylvian, Classical, Opera and many movie soundtracks. Hope helps. This is truly a weird situation
--- The C46 isnt really going to sound good with either the Westy or the Khorn... I have used the equivalent of one to burn in my Khorns and it sounded truly bad. I substituted an old NYAL pre which sounded a bit bloated, slightly bright but significantly more like music. On the high end I used a 10K Linn preamp which was significantly cleaner sounding but overall not as musical as the NYAL so I'm hunting for a new tube preamp.
---BY the way you do know your room is way too small for the Westy. Think about it --- if you keep them away from the side walls and the back wall you would only have room for a 2" tv. Some guys have Khorns in a room this small since one must stuff them in a corner but it seems you are hell bent on using the wrong electronics. Horns belong in a significantly larger room such as 30 x 40 x (10-12+++).
Personally I would think you would be much better off with some basic monkey coffins like the Wilson Sophia's or the big Harbeths.
I am the worlds biggest cheapskate and I'll repeat --- if you are hell bent on considering these speakers buy used ones use them in your home with the electronics you like and sell the gear you dont like...
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I actually only know one person who has heard the two speakers in the same room. The amps were optimized for the Westy and the Westy won by a country mile. Much more refined in the midrange...
On the other hand a really good Klipschorn setup would use a good low powered amp which may sound better than a high powered tube amp a Westy likes.
Given the differences in price --- do what I do --- buy both and sell what you dont like... As silly as this sounds you can buy a new set of class b Khorns for under $4K a good amp to drive them for under $5,000 a good preamp for under $5K and you are in business. The Westy's would cost you $35K the preamp would be the same as in the Khorn case and a really good higher powered tube amp for them a good $20K+ Clearly the Khorns and the amp that runs them is a rounding error...
Oil Bubble?
in General Klipsch Info
Posted
In the interest of full disclosure --- this has happened and as a result at around 7:00pm before the Asian session my group will be closing out this position.
The payout of this position is roughly $45 million US per yard...not a bad 7 days of work... Colin was a professional currency trader and knows about all that yard stuff...I'm a relative piker...
P.S. Good call Colin