BE36
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Posts posted by BE36
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They might need to be tall stands.
Sorround speakers need to be above your ears, see the THX site, roughly 2 feet.
http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-entertainment/home-theater/surround-sound-speaker-set-up/#5.1
I would get at least 1 Heresy for the Center, 2 more to make 5 Heresy speakers would be the best.
I would really try to keep the timbre match up front, when sounds pan form left to right of vise versa when the sound goes from one of the Heresy to the RC it will not match and just not sound right. Vocals that pan from one side of the room will be really bad.
I have used RS-7 in the back with both Forte IIs and La Scalas up front and it that was never an issue.
But up front even an Academy does not blend well the Forte IIs and La Scalas.
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Thank Klipsch for hosting this site and all the other users that have helped me understand me about 1% of this Audiophile stuff.
Another thing to keep in mind is that with Master Audio and True HD we have more data than the movie theatre when they use film.
so why does the Movie Theater sound so good?
Room Treatments, Speaker Placement, Quality Amplification, Biamping etc.
So yes you can get really great surround sound from a $200 dollar Blu-ray, $500 dollar Processor/Amplifier, a $50 HDMI cable and some Klipsh speakers.
Making that system sound a lot better can be done with getting the speakers in the correct place, getting level adjustments right, and managing room reflections for all most zero dollars.
Going for near perfection can get really expensive fast.
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If you like how it sounds, it is worth a Crap.
I start by looking at the specs, some only how it sounds.
I screen which ones I will look at by the specs and then pick which one I like the sound the best.
Those sample rates should work fine. The High-End uses 32 bit to go over the top.
The Yamaha Signal to noise Ratio is the only spec I could find on the Yamaha Website:
Signal-to-Noise Ratio (CD, 250 mV)
100 dBI like this number to be over 100, I am much more sentsitve to Hiss when the volume is cranked up than most audiphiles.
Those who enjoy vinyl are much less sensitive.
I really like the top of line Dennon at 125 dB on the SN ration and 110 on the Dynamic Range, but a $4,000 it will probably never be in by basement.
Mine and the Oppo are around 115 dB and 104 dB.
These number are for the componet the DAC will be the starting point for the component and how good the power supply and internal connections are will determine the final numbers.
I listened to a $2,000 Dennon, $700 Pioneer Elite and an Oppo and like the sound of the Dennon the but felt there was very little difference to the Pioneer and bought the Pioneer and used the $1300 to buy I really nice Pre-amp that made much more of a difference than the player.
It is all about how each component fits with the others to make the whole system good than individual componts.
I you buy a harsh Pre-amp with harsh Amps and harsh Speakers it will sound awful but the same Pre-amp and speakers with a "warmer" amp might sound wounderful.
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HDMI sound?
I think what you want is the HD Sound, Master Audio TrueHD. Something with more data density than 16 bit by 44.1 KHZ CD quality sound.
Some Blu-ray players are better at Decoding this signal and converting to analog than some recievers and visa versa.
So pick your Player and Receiver carefully.
The best HT system I have ever heard was a very high end system that was limited to DVD data rates 48 Khz and 16 bits from a high end DVD Player.
When I heard this same exact system with Blu-ray Player and HDMI Cable I could not believe how much worse the sound was.
Then when a good Blu-ray player was inserted that had good DACs the sound was again incredable with out the HDMI.
I took this same player home to my system and found the Analog outs to sound better than the HDMI, since my Processor did not have that good of DACs.
I found an affordable Blu-ray Processor combination on the used market and am enjoying HD audio with out an HDMI Cable for audio.
I do run an HDMI for visual half of the Blu-ray direct to my TV.
I
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Everything is relative.
Some Blu-ray players are better at decoding than some A/V recievers, Quality of DACs, Power Supply(s) etc.
The Cable is just one link in chain.
You can get pretty incredable sound from an HDMI and $600ish reciever but. . .
revised writing below: -
Should improve the sound Quality since your Processor is trying to drive 5 or 7 channels.
Depends on the quality of external amp, it should not take much though, my Pioneer Elite VSX-92-THX sounded better with used Adcom 545s. I recommend something better but these are improvement that can be had for $200 ish on the Bay.
They advertise 140 watts per channel but that usually drops to less than 100 if all channels are being used. But it not just the watts with less strain other things are going that make the other channels sound better.
Do this with the Sub and all componets Off or better yet unplugged.
Plug one end RCA interconnects into the "Preout" Front R, Front L and Center, Top Center of Picture last column of connectors on right, to the L and R inputs on the amp.
You can get a three channel amp or get two two channel amps and use half of one amp for the center.
Or you could go all out and get 3 mono amps one for each channel.
Move the speaker wires for Front L, R, & Center lower right in the picture, to your external amp L & R as required.
Plug everthing back in.
Preout outs \
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Thanks for the input and when I mentioned it sounded better on small it seemed to be more separated , like the higher frequencys and bass it seemed to sound cleaner. But I just tested different setting while watching Avatar and G.I Joe . It did sound good though on both settings but after a while of switching back and fourth everything started sounded the same lol .BEST OF BOTH WORLDS? (LARGE AND SMALL)
When I had Forte IIs and hooked up a sub the sound, Bass below 80 Hertz, did not sound that much better actually a little less bass below 80 hertz.
The Sub and Forte II were acting like a giant pair of noice canceling Head Sets.
When I went to small there was an improvement, Sub was not being canceled out.
When I went to Large and changed the location off the Sub, finally got the improvement I was looking for in the low end.
I still crossed the Forte IIs at 60 to make there job easier, but still got so extra bass versus crossing at 80 or 100.
Small and Crossing at 60 helped in two ways
1) Lifted some of the demand made them sound better above 60. (less vibrtions in cabinet? Less movement of woofer gave more punch to freqs it hade to make? Less distortion? Less power draw more power availible?)
2) Filled the room with more bass, smoothed out some of the room nodes.
So find the optimum, best of both worlds, balance between Large and Small:
Play with locations of the subs when set on large to get the smoothest room response and best location for the subs, then go to small play with cross over freq until optimized.
Less Drag on the Amp can be a big help.
Lower Frequencies use alot more power than the highs.
Try a used amp for the Fronts and see another improvement and the madness continues.
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BEST OF BOTH WORLDS? (LARGE AND SMALL)
When I had Forte IIs and hooked up a sub the sound, Bass below 80 Hertz, did not sound that much better actually a little less bass below 80 hertz.
The Sub and Forte II were acting like a giant pair of noice canceling Head Sets.
When I went to small there was an improvement, Sub was not being canceled out.
When I went to Large and changed the location off the Sub, finally got the improvement I was looking for in the low end.
I still crossed the Forte IIs at 60 to make there job easier, but still got so extra bass versus crossing at 80 or 100.
Small and Crossing at 60 helped in two ways
1) Lifted some of the demand made them sound better above 60. (less vibrtions in cabinet? Less movement of woofer gave more punch to freqs it hade to make? Less distortion? Less power draw more power availible?)
2) Filled the room with more bass, smoothed out some of the room nodes.
So find the optimum, best of both worlds, balance between Large and Small:
Play with locations of the subs when set on large to get the smoothest room response and best location for the subs, then go to small play with cross over freq until optimized.
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McIntosh 240 is supposed to be one of the best, after I listen to mine, redone by Audio Classics and with all top shelf NOS small tubes, I start to really like it especially the vocals.
Then I switch back to the mostly Stock VRDs and I am blown away by how close the vocals are to the McIntosh but with Bass, and Dynamics that the McIntosh has never Dreamed about.
How much better could the VRD get?
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I used to have a similiar Pioneer with Forte II fronts, Academy Center and
RS-7 surrounds:Properly set up your system should sound darn good and rock the room with bass even without a sub. Your system should give the average Local Mall MovieTheatre a run for their money and beat them when you are listening to Blu-ray.
Dimensions/pictures of the room would be a big help, but without them here is a good link to get the speakers in the correct location:
http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-entertainment/home-theater/surround-sound-speaker-set-up/
Have you run the Speaker Level Setup on the Pioneer? Or calibrated with a SPL Meter?
Are all the Forte Speakers in Corners? Have you tried different distances away from the Corner?
If Forte speakers are not in corners, and a correct distance from the walls, the bass will drop way off and the Highs will be too strong . . . .
Surround Speakers, not the fronts, need to be slightly above your head, getting Forte 1s above your head and in a proper corner will require a stand for the speakers or some type of low seating position, sunken floor etc.
Optical for Dolby can get too much jitter on the higher bit rate Blu-ray disks, I switched to the Analog outs on my Blu-ray and got better sound on the high bit rate recordings. 24bit by 48Khz is where you start notice the difference.
Besides the potential setup issues the highs can be tamed by a warmer processor or seperates amps. This is higher cost solution the above are near zero cost and could make huge improvements.
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I like the JBL 2404 or JBL 2405 Tweeters not too expense off the Bay to ship but maybe able to find some used in Europe.
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Those marks are too deep to Iron with a damp cloth on solid wood.
I would leave them alone until you go groomslake on us.
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Small nicks or dents can be steamed out of solid would with iron and damp cloth, then restained or sanded lightly with very fine grit and then stained locally. Back when Drivers for golf were made out of wood, I used to refinish them to help pay for college. . .
I have not tried this on veneer like Klipsh uses.
How about some else who has tried this on veneer? Does the Glue still hold.
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Do you have Room for RS-7s? Or maybe RS-5s?
I bought some RS-7s as place holders untill I could find the time to build a cabinet into the ceiling for some K33 woofers and point some La Scala Mid Horns and Tweeters at the right angle, also built into the ceiling.
But after two years of the RS-7s I do not feel the need, the timbre match for rears/movies is great.
My Academy center is another story . . . needs to be repleaced.
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"A ball valve is a man among boys. Instead of a knob, it uses a
lever. This valve has positive stops machined in that allows the lever
to move only 90 degrees. When the lever is parallel to the pipe, the
valve is open and water will flow. If the lever is perpendicular to the
pipe, the valve is closed."Last a lot longer than gate valves, much more positive grip on the woofer - smoother signal flow due to the spherical machining.
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Craig of NOS Valves swapped Tungsols for KT-88Zs.
I bought the Gold Lion Reissues, Quad but one blew last week, a pair of NOS Gold Lions, and GE6550s from Bob Carver.
Chinese came with the amps.
I will get the KT-88Z back this weekend, you are welcome to try them or the GEs anytime I am driving through. . .
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Audiable Nectar nailed it as usual.
Hooked up the C26 and there was not a signifcant difference between NOS Gold Lions and Reissues.
NOS were no different on the lows just very slightly warmer in the mids but so close I might fail a double blind test. I could not hear a difference.
The biggest difference was I did not slide the speakers all the way back to their normal resting place, bid improvement in sound stage by getting them more even with end of short walls, closer to my sitting position/less recessed.
Eliminated for my ears:
NOS Tungsols
NOS GE 6550
KT-88z
So now all that is left is to compare Pentas to Gold Lion Reissues.
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I have a really hard time spending $500 on current production KT88, and quite frankly have a hard time paying market prices for Tung-Sol 6550. I have found great success with the Penta Labs KT88. The Penta isn't your normal Chinese made KT88....it bests the standard Shuguang KT88s pretty easily. Clear, warm, nice detail, and act VERY stable in circuit. I have about 7 quads of these, as well as a similar stock of VA KT100, another "beefed up" Shuguang they had out a couple/three years ago that's another very stable tube in circuit - albeit not as smooth and detailed as the Pentas are.
I also prefer the Pentas over the Genelex reissues, although I'll vouch that the Genelexes are a good current effort.....but I definitely like the Pentas better in my rig (JM>VRDs>Heritage).
I have read others say that they like the Treasures over the Pentas, but I'm having doubts as to whether they are worth almost triple the $$$. I figure it's the typical "10% improvement for 300% of the cost". And given what I know of the VRD's, more bang for the buck comes from the front end tubes, and since I have two of the top four recent production offerings well in stock, I'm not grippin' over my output tubes much.....and I can run the hello out of them and not worry about running out of tubes.
That said, I'm glad Shuguang is trying to push the envelope. That's good for us tubers.
I have tried all the vintage GE 6550 (Boxes and extra tube signed by B. Carver), Tung-sols and Gold Lions, plus KT-88z, Chinese KT-98s and Gold Lion Reissues.
Right now I have Gold Lions Reissues in the Left Channel and Gold Lions NOS in the right I will have to plug in the C26 to do a proper side by side this weekend to see which one wins between those two.
Then a Side by Side with Pentas latter this year to determine the best output tube for me.
From what I can tell so far it will be almost imposible for there to enough difference to justify NOS Gold Lions vs Reissues.
Recently I had the Chinese 98 (Not Penta) in the right channeI, could really hear the difference to compared to the Left Channel Reissue Gold Lions.
Reissue Gold Lions had much more base and warmer vocals.
But comparing NOS Gold Lions to Reissues I will need to do a true side by side comparsion with the C26 playing the same channel through both to hear if there a significant differance my tin ears can detect.
Note: Gold Lion Reissues in right channel just blew with less than 2,000 hous since new, from a good source.
At least they provided some family entertainment when they arced, crackled and in general created a lot of excitement.
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Universals for mid-range and bass improvements. Kipsch also has replacement network, only one that I have not tried, 1.5x times $$$ of a univerasal. . .
JBL 2404 or JBL 2405 Tweeters -- symbols will sound like symbols and you will not believe how much music above 14,000 hertz you missing with the stock tweeters. CT-125 fit much better and are an improvement over the KT-77s.
Best upgrade for La Scalas is a Pair of VRDs -- you will not need a sub for 99.99% of music, only movies.
Fastrac Midrange horns are great if your amp is a little too "Accurate" for Klipch Exponential horns.
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I tried the solid Romex Logic, not bad about as good as Monster Cable.
Audioquest commercial wire for less than $10 was 6 Db beeter in signal to noise ratio.
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Stock Finish sells the best.
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Looks like a K510 would be a good fit for keeping the stock look and get rid of this box on top!
I finally saw this picture. (at home, I'm on a slow pc connection....price I pay for living 15 miles out of town)
Those are some pretty LaScalas. I would speculate you would probably prefer to NOT cut the motorboard where the K401/77 are mounted. I know that I would not want to. Indeed, my LaScalas (which I bought in 1979) will probably never become JubeScalas because I don't think I could bring myself around to actually cutting them up. They've been with me wayyyyyyyyy too long and seen too much of my life.... (yeah, I can be a sentimental dummy at times over the silliest of things)
Maybe you can cut into your LaScalas... power to you. I'd be less inclined to cut mine if they looked like yours.
Regardless.... the nice thing is you can always try the 510 out on top like your current situation and if you find the need, can always make the change later. In case you have not seen Pat's JubeScalas, I'll see if I can post a picture
Pictured below are the La Scala bins that will be modified.
When I am done modifing these the La Scalas above will sold in Stock Configuration, Mint Condition.
I picked the bins up in New York for less than $100
1" Sides, some exotic vaneer, etc.
Still deciding on which horns and drivers.
Still looking for a third cabinet like these for the Center Channel.
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Wow. Thanks!.
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Thanks for volunteering Bob's system.
I would love to hear it to answer some of the questions I have.
Drive and Fly near Bay City several times year, almost once a month.
Bob's would be listing to Biamping in a similiar enviroment and system as compared to the only time I have really heard Biamping - Movie Theaters.
Going to some quality movie theaters:
1) Paladium - JBL
2) IMAX - Klipch
Bi-amp'd systems have sounded very good especially since they are not starting with is as much data compated to TrueHD etc.
But my questions are:
What is at fault?
Well engineered room treatements and locations?
Room Design?
Room Size?
Biamping?
Better Amps?
Better Horns?
Better Drivers?
I would guess all have some effect, How much is due to Biamping?
The concerns I have with going active:
1) I, a Mechanical Engineer, do not know what I am doing electrically outside of House Wiring. (Sounds like DX38 with Roy's seting may solve some of this)
2) Would I have to buy another set of VRDs or could I use Adcom' 545s that I already have for the Woofers?
3) Would an ALK ES600 as a Two-Way to the K510 do almost as good?
Better? (After the signal has been converted from Digital to Analog what are the issues with the DBx going through another set of D/A - A/D conversions?)
(Probably about 6 threads worth of discusions above, 6 more below.
I am pretty happy with sound right now with VRDs, Fastrac Sqauwker Horns and JBL 2404 tweeters.
The main reason for revising the Cabinet Tops was to accomodate JBL 2405s or JBL 2404s and keep them looking stock for WAF reasons.
I wanted K-Horns, my wife liked and actually wanted La Scalas.
She is into Art and Mission Furnature and thinks they look really Cool.
House is way too small for K-Horns.
Looks like a K510 would be a good fit for keeping the stock look and get rid of this box on top!
adding speakers
in Home Theater
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Mint Heresy Pair on the Bay for $499
No affiliation with the seller.
http://cgi.ebay.com/KLIPSCH-HERESY-HOO-PERFECT-/150513355209?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item230b4b89c9
Buy them to get toward Five, or buy them for 499 sell one for $200 and for $300 you have a great looking Center that has timbre Matching.
Personally I would by these plus one more and have an all Heresy set up.