Quiet_Hollow
-
Posts
2477 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
1
Content Type
Forums
Events
Gallery
Posts posted by Quiet_Hollow
-
-
Stock AL-3's
-
Video as promised.
http://www.megafileupload.com/en/file/327691/EQdemo-flv.html
It's a 70MB flash video. Yes, Megaupload looks like a fly-by-night FTP host with head shop and male enhancement ads, but it works. A little slow at times, but at least you'll get my video in it's entirety. Can't use YouTube for reasons we're all too familiar with. File name on the site is EAdemo.flv but will download as EQdemo.flv
-
Setting the DEQ to mimic what my sub woofer arrangement accomplishes down to 30 Hz, in my specific circumstance*, I end up with the following:
31.5Hz +13.5
40Hz +7
50Hz +2
60Hz +5
63Hz +9
70Hz +11
80Hz +12
90Hz +2.5
160Hz +0.5
200Hz +1
* These numbers are not universal. If you want to give EQ a try without blowing the bass bins out, start with the numbers I mentioned earlier on the post. For best results use an SPL meter, test tones, and run the math. Check voltages with a multimeter.
This approximates the frequency response of the AS-EQ1 / sub / and amplifier combination. I say approximate because using solely the La Scala's, I'm at the complete mercy of room acoustics given their placement. So this arrangement can safely put 100 dB @ 31.5Hz across my sofa along with rattling everything in my living room. Yes, at that utmost limit, ~ 99 dB, there is some audible distortion that is familiar to anyone that's heard a woofer being pushed near Xmax. But, I don't listen to my system that loud with music for the sake of my hearing. So at more reasonable levels for myself, like say 85 dB, everything sounds very good still, even with Telarc stuff. I understand the subtle differences and can tell that it isn't "horn-loaded" down there, but it's a heck of a lot beefier than the raw response of the a stock La Scala and a completely reversible mod.
Short video in the works for those who are curious...
*edit* - for grammar
-
I just did a little "experimenting" with my SVS and you are correct. Once you know the sub is there, you miss it when it is gone. But, with that being said, I think if I only had the La Scalas without a sub, I could live with them and be quite happy. I don't typically listen at high SPL's, but next time I do, I'll bump the 30hz - 60hz slider on the Audio Control C101-III, 3db to 5db and see how it sounds with the sub off.
This is what I did too as I've got a component horn sub. Yeah the La Scala's will never dig like that machine can. With only the La Scalas fired up though, sliding in +5-8 dB in the 30-60Hz range is like listening to a whole new set of speakers.
From this:
To this:
-
It's one percent. There's a decimal point in there. It is also stated in the lower right as part of the second to the last paragraph. And that was measured at 100dB (ie. pretty darn darn loud). It tells me that this speaker plays very loud, with very little distortion, within the paramteters of the test.Upon reading the sheet, a peak of 10% modulation distortion is cited. However, this tells us nothing of other types of distortion, ie harmonic. Frankly, it doesn't tell us much of anything, since that's a rather high amount of modulation distortion. If I'm missing something, please let me know.
Trying out EQ is a lot cheaper and less permanent than acquiring a sub of commensurate quality or giving the cab a facelift. Does not even the finest woman look better with something as benign as good make-up?I didn't claim they were comparable; however, there is little question that a subwoofer of commensurate quality to your La Scalas would seriously outperform them below 40Hz, in quality and quantity, and that such a subwoofer would be a very worthwhile addition for listening to many kinds of music. This is in contrast to the implication of your first post that EQing a La Scala yields all the bass most people would need for music.
It's a factor of over 6 for power. That's rather significant IMO
IMO it's not. My speakers are lucky to see one watt. Why? Because otherwise I'll have the fuzz over at my place asking why dishes are rattling in neighbor's house a half-block away. A factor of 6 is 6 watts and would be raising absolute Cain.
It just isn't as big of a factor at the power level I'm talking about. I'm saying if you want to be conservative, and subtract for "power compression"...by all means, go ahead. Subtract a full 6dB (compresion of an average speaker at 100 watts) and the number is still more bass than your police will gladly shake their stick at.Frankly, I'm not sure how you established what is a "reasonable amount" of compression for the situation
That math is wrong. 25 watts is displacement limited power. There is little, if any, power compression taking place. It's just not an issue at anything under 100 dB SPL with this design's capability. I'm not blowing smoke....but I'll add my own observations: according to speakerfritz, 25 watts is the maximum input power from 0-40Hz that the La Scala Industrial can manage. Maximum input power is simply the most juice the speaker will absorb without potentially being damaged, not the max amount of input power before onset of significant compression.To illustrate this, the La Scala II has a rated sensitivity of 105dB, and a maximum acoustic output of 121dB per the product page. To reach that figure only requires 40 watts assuming 0 compression. On the other hand, the La Scala II is rated for 100 watts continuous and 400 watts peak. So what does that make a reasonable figure for compression at 30Hz with 25 watts input? Who knows. You'd have to measure it to know for certain, but to assume that it will respond with 0 compression or even 2dB compression is being rather liberal with your numbers. This to say nothing of what the heck the speaker is doing distortion-wise over 20Hz below it's rated response capability.
Depends on the music.
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm
Then there is the magic of electronic music...
C'mon, keep it real. People aren't chopping up their La Scalas for infra-sound.
-
How did you come by this calculation? Do you have actual measurements showing output versus distortion? For example an SVS PB13-Ultra has actually been independantly measured to output 105dB at 2 meters ground plane at 30Hz (equating to 111dB at 1 meter) with under 3% THD. Do you have anything to indicate that the La Scala can actually match that kind of performance besides the fact that they sound fine to you EQed, and by your calculations, you believe they can put out 110dB at 30Hz?
Distortion figures are part of the engineering specication shown below. I'm not claiming those numbers at 30Hz, but Klipsch has them for 45 Hz and above for the home version and 40Hz and above for the LSI. Keep in mind, the bass bin is not comparable to a standalone powered subwoofer that can easily dip into the infra-sonic region.
There is nothing glaringly distiguishing about the freq responses shown below until you realize that the K-Horn had to be in a corner to get those numbers. The La Scala wasn't. However, comparing the two is not the point of this thread.BS right back at ya. The fact that straight from the factory, the La Scala was down 4dB at 53Hz is a pretty strong indicator that they were not in fact designed to have K-horn levels of deep bass reproduction.
+/- 8 dB is far from "EQ the crap out it".That you can EQ the crap out of it and produce something acceptable to your ear is beside the point.
It didn't, seeing that the senario requires less than 30 watts. But if you want to substract 2 dB SPL (a reasonable number) ...it still comes out above 104 dB SPL.How does compression play into your calculations?
At the end of the day, TO ME, it's still a 15" bass cabinet with sub par extension.
I hear ya.
-
0 to 40hz=25 watts,
The specs might appear paltry, but run the numbers. Half-space the La Scala is 96dB SPL @ 1 watt (conservatively rated) from 30-60Hz. 25 watts will net 13dB over that. That's right around 110 dB, as I mentioned before above. All well within the power envelop of the design.the power handling between 0 to 40hz is pretty poor
-
When it has to cover nearly 4 octaves in the mean time? It isn't like that cone is scrambling to just get by down there. It's loafing along, EQ puts the spurs to it.A 15" driver in a box that's down 4 dB @54 Hz is not all that impressive to me.
-
Out of curiosity, what do the numbers say about distortion at those frequencies when EQed? What is the maximum output capability of a La Scala at 30Hz at one meter?
Distortion at a normal listening level for me was inaudible. As far as maximum output capability, calculated max RMS SPL in half-space (because actual is situationally dependent) when you flatten the bottom end using a 8 dB of EQ, would be ~110 dB SPL from bottom to top. Enough to easily flap your clothes at all frequencies when standing near the speaker.
Running without EQ...yeah, thin would describe it. They really need 3-5 dB of EQ in the 30-60 region to get full. 8-9 dB and they get down-right authoritative . Nothing the drivers can't handle at all, given the design's lofty sensitivity. I've found the bottoms of mine to vibrate at even the most minute levels, almost regardless of playback level, and at most prominently the mid bass frequencies. Which makes sense as that would be approximately the natural frequency for a 22 inch span of wood (ie. the un-braced mouth). When dialing in the EQ, the cabinet vibrated no more significantly that it had already been doing so....in my experience.
The LSI uses a K-43 woofer which is tuned higher than a K33-E. None the less...even 40Hz is pretty damn low for music.
[bs] The La Scala was designed to output K-Horn style goodness in the absence of perfect corners. It can do that just fine without physical modification.It's simply not what the La Scala was designed to do; what can you expect?
-
I understand the uniqueness of your very large shop / lounge, but you're also running home theater. Have you ever plugged in an EQ just to see what you could've gotten away with strictly for 2 channel music? [My LaScalas are in a very large building, and the bass just doesn't get the same boosts as people with smaller rooms.
]
-
La Scalas have sub bass. For all the people contemplating buying a sub, or god forbid, physically modifying their cabs solely to listen to music..choose wisely. I have to raise my brows when someone contemplates cutting up their cabs, or says they can't get the bass they want out of 16 cubic feet of bass bin.
Buy or rent an EQ and slide in 5 dB from 30-60Hz. Simple as that. What's at your disposal? 2 fifteen inch drivers with ~8 mm xmax each, 8 square feet of mouth, 96 dB of sensitivity in the basement in half-space, with 20 dBW RMS of headroom over one watt.
I run a sub with my pair for home theater extension, dynamics, and precision bass management over my meager receiver. But I ran my La Scalas solo, listening, err flat-out jamming, for 5 years no-problemo before adding a sub. If you find the bass in a stock LaScala lacking...EQ because it's in there.
*EDIT*- Link to the video is on page 4 of the thread, and fixed broken links.
-
+ 1Lastly, before I had La Scalas, I actually couldn't understand many of the lyrics. Now, they come through loud and clear.....
-
I appreciate the scale of your system. Just saying that using a compressor on the play-back side of the signal chain for anything but live sound is not proper implementation of the device. I'd be a little skeptical of that recommendation. BTY - at 6000 ft^2, that's not "home" theater....that's real theater that happens be home!! LOL [The room is about 6,000 sf with 20' eves, so its not your typical HT. It is actually closer to a pro setup than a HT. I am trying to have my cave and eat it 2.
] Should be using 2-3 full width T60's or a DSL TH221.
-
55 dB SPL just loafing along with some quiet evening jazz, and yet, I can pick out every little nuance. All the while, no sound makes it beyond the living room. I really enjoy that no matter how low I set the volume, the La Scalas and sub can still completely resolve the music from top to bottom. Anyone else enjoy über-subtle levels with their systems from time to time?
-
Leather....ug.
-
. As far as using a compressor in a home stereo....don't do it. That's not what it was designed for. The THT placement is room specific, unless he's shuffled them around and listened to where they sound best in that room personally, his recommendation would be moot.
-
In addition bass + bass + bass ? simply more bass. The only time sound from two or more sources sum is when it reaches the listener in absolute phase with each other, to include all the harmonics. Then, they only sum logarithmically, a lot less than you think. Otherwise they are working against one another. This is a waste of power at the listening position, destroys transient response, and puts a bunch of errant energy into the room to vibrate, among other things, the walls, shelves, neighbors, etc. Factor in that each bass driver contributes their own distortion and the whole situation quickly becomes a steaming pile of audio. It is much easier to manage bass from a single point. However, If you're going the multiple source route, they had best be identical in response, exhibit low distortion, and be controlled by a DSP that can manage all their timing in a closed-loop fashion.
-
My misunderstanding. [:$] Sage advice there.
-
I'd recommend against that as a means of comparison. It'd be a nice visit no less, but there'd be no correlation regarding K-Horn's and Jub's in terms of presentation. The two tops would sound vastly unique from one another. There's very specific reasons why Jubs sound the way they do, they are not K-Horns.If you can get to Bay City, you should set a time to hear Bob's Jubilee's.
-
The difference between the "LFE" and "Line In" regarding the RW-10 is this: Signals routed through the "LFE" input by-pass the subwoofer amplifier's low-pass filter. Any filtering will have to be handled exclusively by the receiver when that input is used.Is there a difference between LFE & Line In?
-
I remember that thread. What's he got hanging on the wall there? a portable MRI? Free energy device of sorts? Oh oh! I know.... "Whack-a-mole 3D" right, right?!
-
[]
-
1
-
-
Dunno. Some of the offerings from the Genelec 8200 series are pretty delicious for their size.Is the Heresy the best bookshelf ever?
-
The only rational I can muster is that the folks recommending those subs simply haven't felt what a horn-sub can do. Honestly, they are that good, but not plug-and-play. Klipsch doesn't make a home theater horn-sub sized for the average room otherwise I'd have personally given it a listen. If the masses could hear a BFM Table Tuba or Danley DTS-20 at Best Buy or Wal-Mart there'd be no contest for all but the best servo subs like Rythmik Audio. Then there's the price point issue.
Not necessarily...Is it some how easier to build a quality sub than a equally nice speaker?
I gather it's the price the heritage speakers fetch on the used market. Incredible bang for the buck. IMHO Danley makes a superior horn, but new they cost a lot more than a used La Scala or K-Horn. Figure in Danley's sales numbers and finding a pair of exactly what you want on the used market is slim to none.Is it just the horn that everyone loves from Klipsch (since most don't reccomend the Klipsch subs)?
]
] Should be using 2-3 full width T60's or a DSL TH221.
La Scala bass (by the numbers...) [video]
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
Excellent catch!! Just checked the back of the speakers....yep '90. Now I've gotta change my signature and my YouTube videos. '89 was the year of a pair of AL equipped cabs I used to own. For whatever reason, the number just stuck with me. I might switch out to poly caps one of these days, but lack of bass has never been an issue at my place.
Thanks!
Did you get a chance to check out the video?