HornEd
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Posts posted by HornEd
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I gotta work on visualizing a Hope chest of catfish enchilada's... maybe we can get back to visualizing whirled peas in DTS 6.1... with Klipsch R_7's making it sound whirrrrtthwhile! That's better than posting more political frogs in this blender... especially when we're a little short of Mark Twain! HornEd
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Thanks for the encouragement, Jim. Actually, I was thinking of removing the mid-range horn from the KLF 30 and then putting it and a mate in the separate enclosure... to minimize the potential impedence problem. I hope one of the experts out there will give me a clue or two in this area.
It should be fun to build a full-size tandum surround speaker... more fun and a whole lot cheaper than some hobbies I have had.
HornEd -
Although they have been replaced by a hot shot lineup of Reference "7's", KLF 30's have brought a lot of listening satisfaction to a lot of folks... and I am proud to be one. Having six KLF 30's gives me the opportunity to experiment a little... like rebuilding the board to make a fabulous KLF 30 center channel that works for my system... but is probably not a viable commercial configuration... but that's O.K., it is a step toward an all KLF 30 6.1 system.
For the next step, I sure could use some advice from the clever engineers and savvy Klipsch vets that scan this BB. I like having KLF 30's on the side for the increasing "discrete" aspects on DVD's... but they need help on the "ambient" aspects. So, what I propose to do to a pair of KLF 30's is to pull the mid-range horn assemblies out and add two horn assemblies in a separate cabinet to allow a 180 degree array. By feeding the horn array with the output from the 30's xover the ambient aspect should increase without much damage to the discrete performance. Or so I theorize.
If this potentially harebrained idea has any merit, I would appreciate any suggestions in laying out the mid-range horn array supplemental speaker. I have access to MDF sheets, woodworking and electronics tools and, hopefully, retain some skills.
Again, I have the utmost respect for Klipsch engineering as evidenced by dozens of Klipsch speaker purchases from authorized dealers over the years.
Now I would like to have an extra fun dimension in my retirement... and could use a little help from those who I would like to look upon as friends. HornEd
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"30 Something 6.1 Herd"
KLF 30 Mains
KLF 30 Modified Center
KLF 30 Surrounds
KLF 30 Rear Effects
SB-2 Front Effects
Subs: KSW-15 + 3 KSW-12's
Speaker Support Systems:
Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"
Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver
... UNDER CONSTRUCTION!
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Always good to have another Ed on board. Welcome TampaEd! As you can see from my profile below, I am rather partial to KLF 30's. BUT, with 30's you will probably want to upgrade your center to at least a KLF C-7 to approximate a better timbre match.
From what this BB six-star Administrator (BobG) says, the new RC-7 will be an even better centers. BobG indicates that the new Reference 7 series has the character of the Legend line (includes KLF 30 which is no longer made) and the accuracy of the Reference line. A good match between mains and centers is very important to eliminate distracting tone and timbre shifts while doing HT.
You will find there are a lot of good folks on this BB even if they are not all named Ed. Enjoy! HornEd
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"30 Something 6.1 Herd"
KLF 30 Mains
KLF 30 Modified Center
KLF 30 Surrounds
KLF 30 Rear Effects
SB-2 Front Effects
Subs: KSW-15 + 3 KSW-12's
Speaker Support Systems:
Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"
Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver
... UNDER CONSTRUCTION!
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Hooray, they have indeed elevated BobG from his Boa "No Life" status to that of a Six-Star Administrator!!! Richly deserved, since BobG has long handled the absurd problems and inane questions with dispatch, aplomb and humor. I had hoped by this original post to provoke some unique BobG humor... and in this I have failed.
Perhaps it was because I have authored too many absurd and inane posts.In any event, thanks be to you, BobG, for your thousands of timely interventions to keep this BB on just enough "straight and narrow" to let us enjoy a tad bit of "curvy and broad."
HornEd------------------
"30 Something 6.1 Herd"
KLF 30 Mains
KLF 30 Modified Center
KLF 30 Surrounds
KLF 30 Rear Effects
SB-2 Front Effects
Subs: KSW-15 + 3 KSW-12's
Speaker Support Systems:
Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"
Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver
... UNDER CONSTRUCTION!
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Thank-Q very much, that was my plan. I figure if my experiment fails, I can always remount the parts on the original board and reinsert it. I need to pull that board and reseal it in any event, so I might as well get some "playtime" in as well.
Q, I'd like your input on another matter. I am considering a home-modification to a pair of KLF 30's to improve their characteristics as side surround speakers. My thought is that if I mounted a custom box with a pair of mid-range horns (like those in the KLF 30) configured in a 180 degree array that they would provide some WDST advantages. My thought was to remove the internal mid-range horn and extend the hook-up wire to the horns mounted in a custom enclosure atop the KLF30's. I think the added height of the horns will benefit the "ambiance" characteristics I seek without losing too much of the "discrete" performance I enjoy from having KLF 30's on the side.
Thanks for your continued interest. HornEd
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SoCalGator, here's a tip from a native GoldenGator. I faced a similar problem placing front effects speakers at an ideal height... and was unsatisfied with the commercial speaker stands I tried. Out of frustration, I went to Home Depot and wandered around looking for a way to solve my problem. The solution worked for me, but may not be to your liking.
I bought a 10' length of 4" ABS black sewer pipe (cut in half), a couple of end caps, a couple of metal to ABS swivel flanges, 12" oak rounds, and a bag of play sand. I had some textured paint that was used to match the decor on another project.
Now I have matching columns that can be "swivel-tweaked" to the sweet spot, are rock solid, and hold my SB-2 front effects speakers about 6' high for a better sound image (I keep my mains against the RPHD 65"). The very small photo below shows the stands before painting. I have built similar stands before and put reducers on each end to give the column a wider base. The end cap provides a good surface to use industrial Velcro to hold the speaker and filling the tube half full of play sand reduces resonance and tipping problems.
In my experience with side placement, I find that putting the horns a foot or so above ear level works for me. I had intended to put spike feet under the oak rounds... but the sand fill seemed to do the job for the "limited duty" front effects.
If you do find a ready-made alternative, please let me know so I can pass it on to those who desire the height and stability without the "hands on"
experience. Enjoy! HornEdI tried to repaste the Ksite ubb pointer... and it didn't work. You can find a similar photo at
forums >> Odds and Mods >> Legendary Front Effects
just a couple of mouse clicks away on this BB. HornEd
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"30 Something 6.1 Herd"
KLF 30 Mains
KLF 30 Modified Center
KLF 30 Surrounds
KLF 30 Rear Effects
SB-2 Front Effects
Subs: KSW-15 + 3 KSW-12's
Speaker Support Systems:
Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"
Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver
... UNDER CONSTRUCTION!
This message has been edited by HornEd on 05-25-2001 at 09:26 AM
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Yes, if have tried it both ways. I do the Blockbuster 19.99 for 30 days of "free" DVD rentals (1 per day) and experienced it as DD 5.1. I liked it so well, that I bought the DTS version... and was amazed at how much better it was on my in DTS ES. As to buying a DVD, I prefer to get all I can for my money. Who knows what configuration my system might take downstream... and if and when a change occurs, I would like to get the best quality out of my DVD library.
I suspect that 6.1 and DTS-like sound will become the standard of the industry over the next few years... even if the 600 lb. gorilla of sound (DD) does the grunting.
Sorry I can't go into more detail, it seems I have another root canal on my agenda. Hole-in-the-HornEd
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Of course, personal preference and your rig make a big difference, but for me, the DTS version is far superior, particularly when your receiver/speakers can put it out as 6.1. Many times the versions made for Blockbuster, etc. are in DD 5.1... even though you see DTS in the film credits. DTS is less compressed and sounds far better in the blind tests I have made with guests in my HT. I know that's not what the Dolby White Paper says... but if the public did not perceive a real difference... there probably would not have been a White Paper from Dolby. Yeah... switch it out and be more careful next time. HornEd
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"30 Something 6.1 Herd"
KLF 30 Mains
KLF 30 Modified Center
KLF 30 Surrounds
KLF 30 Rear Effects
SB-2 Front Effects
Subs: KSW-15 + 3 KSW-12's
Speaker Support Systems:
Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"
Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver
... UNDER CONSTRUCTION!
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Well said, PhilH... but I still prefer DTS 6.1 program material to bring out the psychological benefits of sound that may move closer to art than engineering. All too often, explanations with engineering precision fall short of the consumer's "sound art appreciation" in the real world.
As in other posts, I have loudly applauded Klipsch for it's WDST approach to bridge gaps in recording formats and keep my ears open to future iterations.
I appreciate your leaving room for tomorrow's innovations, for if the solution of any given day were all that compelling, there would be no need for such a long list of "Classic" Klipsch speakers with the admonition, "While no longer in production, (fill in the blank) model loudspeakers are still owned and listened to by Klipsch fans around the world as part of home theater surround sound systems.
Klipsch has groomed us to probe the envelope of sound and senses... and, thereby, encouraged us to make the money it takes to seek and enjoy our individual audio paths. And we thank you for it! HornEd
PS: Thanks for leaving some room for those of us who buy multiple Klipsch speakers to explore "sound walls" as we may. Klipsch has groomed us to probe the envelope of sound and senses... and, thereby, encouraged us to make the money it takes to seek and enjoy our individual audio/art paths. And we thank you for it! HornEd
PS: Thanks for leaving some room for those of us who buy multiple Klipsch speakers to explore "sound walls" as we may.
This message has been edited by HornEd on 05-25-2001 at 09:15 AM
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Yup, I understand your point of view... and shared it when I bought a receiver for features other than its ability to do 6.1 which I viewed as a "moneysucker" feature. So I backed into 6.1 with a negative attitude toward it. Shades of STL!
Obviously, our eyes and ears are mounted as predators... and our program material is structured to attract the full frontal attention of our natural predator config. I mean, if we are fully rapt on what we are devouring... what need do we really have to divert our eyes and ears from the movable feast before us?
Ah, but there is more to our sonic jungle than meets the eye. The sensation that there is a world behind which you cannot see... but only here and feel... in the hands of an enlightened team of creative sound engineers... the total immersion of the sonic jungle does not have to be lost in "boob tube" fixation.
In the early days of surround sound experimentation, multiple speakers were used to emit verbal clues not unlike the sonic reflections of a good listening hall. Yamaha (and others) have long tried to achieve that with DSP chips... much maligned as purists have made them.
But the fact remains, as predators, that sound that is located directly behind us has the potential to be the most ethereal... and is made less so by the amount that is available to side speakers. What I am trying to portray, in my less than eloquent prose, is that the "drama of sound" can be better engineered with a 6.1 system rather than a 7.1 or 5.1 system.
It follows, of course, that a 6.2 system would be even better... with a rear subwoofer located 180 degrees behind the "primary ears" of the household. The reason being that the low end of directionality tends to arouse the primal sense of another presence that cannot be seen... and which is better developed in lower prey animals.
Don't shortchange your Klipsch config on its course to develop a deeper appreciation and joy beyond sales hype. I got to go turn on some "New World..."
HornEd -
Wow, way cool decibel wringer! I need to get me a herd of them thar decision tree, sub zero, neural net enhancers and rock on to Rolltide... where vintage boxes rust in the sun unmolested... and I cam sit in rapt contemplation of my naval jelly.
With such desire, Shakespeare never could have written:
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.
Then again, rumor has it that Shakespeare predated PWK so he lacked the "sans ears" lead line.
~ HornEdOne of these days they got to get that tongue into the smiley!
This message has been edited by HornEd on 05-24-2001 at 08:56 AM
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Have you checked with your audiologist? Do you listen while smoking funny stuff? Have you found a 13th step? Is St. Peter your new webmaster?
Surely you MUST be able to visualize your old refrigerator on its side, horned, ported and sporting a pair of coppertoned woofers... smack in-between a pair of 50th Anniversary Khorns autographed in two-tone fluorescent spray paint by PWK!
Oh, gosh, lost your stereo lust? I'm sorry... I forgot about the slope intercept theorem, etc... maybe you can talk about it with Bob Dole's amplifier specialist?
Ah, yes, life is but a (sound) stage and we are merely (Klipsch) players. HornEd
PS: If all else fails, assume the lotus position in your sonic sweet spot, crank up the volume and visualize whirled peas!
This message has been edited by HornEd on 05-24-2001 at 08:27 AM
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EricK, your cold logic convinced me to warm up to yet another pair of KLF 30's at a fair price... and do a little Klipsch shaking out... or maybe I should ask my little old 93 yr-old mom to move her little leather LazyBoy to some other part of the house... that way I make more speaker space and provide a socially acceptable reason to turn up the volume.
Oh, well, at least I live up to my suggestions. HornEd
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"30 Something 6.1 Herd"
KLF 30 Mains
KLF 30 Modified Center
KLF 30 Surrounds
KLF 30 Rear Effects
SB-2 Front Effects
Subs: KSW-15 + 3 KSW-12's
Speaker Support Systems:
Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"
Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver
... UNDER CONSTRUCTION!
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As you might suspect, Boa, I have been experimenting with the three KLF 10's in setting up direct rear effects. Of course, the method chosen by the sound engineers (and not revealed in so many words on the jacket) create a huge difference in how the sounds can be made to come across by the choice of speakers and placement. This is particularly true of those of us who like to do it "discretely."
Which leads to STL's theorizing about the adequacy of a phantom center. In my setup, a 5.1 source becomes a matrixed 6.1... and a less than 5.1 source comes across at least as a 5.0 with the actual center falling silent and a "phantom center" imposed by the surrounds. Let's face it, nearly all of us are using Klipsch speakers and if the source material is good the Klipsch speakers are going to make it good... but a real Klipsch rear effects speaker beats a Klipsch induced speaker hands down. A good 6.1 DVD (even if it is 5.1 matrixed to 6.1) brings an extra measure of pleasure.
Now, years ago, I used an upscale phantom approach over a true center approach because I was using a huge projector filling an 18'x9' screen and I was trying to reduce "directional sound gaps"... and it worked. But, today's creative sound engineering migration seems to be toward more discrete rear sounds and a greater attempt consciously blend background sounds for discrete dissemination.
If the WDST technique that Klipsch employs with quality speakers were the norm, I think the migration to discrete speakers would be slower. However, it should be noted that creating an "ambient" background sound is a lot easier and cheaper than building a real discrete sound showpiece. Sadly, a lot of reissues of old films in 5.1 formats take the cheaper course. I thought "Ben Hur" fared better than "Lawrence of Arabia" on that score... even though the sound tracks of "Lawrence" had been lost and the principal acters had to lip sync there lines many years later.
STL, if you get a chance, sit through the best parts of a good 6.1 DVD in a good 6.1 speaker environment and then listen to it on its 5.1 option using a phantom channel. I think you will find, as I was surprised to find, that there is a distinct "gut level" difference in enjoyment.
As ... theory may sell speakers... but its ears that make them keepers. :ears (oops, they don't have that smiley yet!) HornEd
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Well, Craig, and all the others who asked one place and another... I am not sure. I like the sound of KLF 30's well enough to take a flyer at having six of them in a 6.1 system.
Originally, I picked up the KLF 10's because I could not find enough new KLF 30's available in the S.F. Bay Area. I bought the C-7 after trying a RC-3. But, if the modified KLF-30 works I will probably part with the KLF 10's and the C-7. If you would like to be posted on any decision, let me know.
I must confess that I am still eager to hear the new line... and who knows, I may have six KLF 30's and three KLF 10's available in the not too distant future.
Im my cognition studies of elderly folks, Klipsch speakers continue to excel. I think it is the nature of the horn and its purity in handling tones.
I am still looking forward to hearing how your SVS ramps up in your system. Good bass has the potential to stir neural growth. Oh, yes, and there is that other famous quote, "Old legends never die... they just take up space in my basement."
HornEd------------------
"30 Something 6.1 Herd"
KLF 30 Mains
KLF 30 Modified Center
KLF 30 Surrounds
KLF 30 Rear Effects
SB-2 Front Effects
Subs: KSW-15 + 3 KSW-12's
Speaker Support Systems:
Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"
Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver
... UNDER CONSTRUCTION!
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Yeah, I know, the C-7 that occupies the critical space above my RPHD 65" was designed by experts... and, yes, it's one of the best center channels I have heard. But, now that I have three pair of KLF 30's I either need to change my amp to a 7.1 unit or keep my 6.1 config and turn one of the KLF 30's into a center channel... and further improve the timbre matching.
I expect to use the same KLF 30 cabinet (the monitor is big strong and level on top)and simply put cut out a new baffle board with the woofers on either side of horizontally mounted horns... seal it up and let 'er rip.
Oh, and I am not in any rush to part with the C-7. I figure if it is a total waste, I can always put it back together as a regular speaker... or follow the advice of the Set-Up DVD that suggests putting a floor standing duplicate main atop your TV.
All advice cheerfully accepted (with the possible exception of "spitting" ala Boa!). HornEd
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"30 Something 6.1 Herd"
KLF 30 Mains
KLF 30 Modified Center
KLF 30 Surrounds
KLF 30 Rear Effects
SB-2 Front Effects
Subs: KSW-15 + 3 KSW-12's
Speaker Support Systems:
Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"
Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver
... UNDER CONSTRUCTION!
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Well, Q, your innovative work and informative posts have led me to buy yet another pair of KLF 30's... and surgery has begun on "horizontalizing" the one KLF 30 that on rare sound bytes, leaks air like the bean scene in "Blazing Saddles." I am hoping a new baffle board that rotates the horns 90 degrees and provides for a woofer on either side, plus some sheetmetal inside the new bottom will make the old KLF 30 into an acceptable center channel... given your success with the KLF 10. I am open to suggestions...
HornEd------------------
"30 Something 6.1 Herd"
KLF 30 Mains
KLF 30 Modified Center
KLF 30 Surrounds
KLF 30 Rear Effects
SB-2 Front Effects
Subs: KSW-15 + 3 KSW-12's
Speaker Support Systems:
Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"
Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver
... UNDER CONSTRUCTION!
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Thanks Covey21, it was a pleasure doing business with you. Now I can complete my "30 Something" Klipsch 6.1 HT experiment... KLF 30's mains, "horizontalized" KLF 30 center, KLF 30 surrounds, and a KLF 30 rear effects speaker. Gotta love those KLF 30's for HT. Enjoy wringing in your new Belles. It was a pleasure to talk to a bona fide Klipsch student from the old school... in downtown Hope.
HornEdPS: Sorry, I tried to send a photo of your KLF 30's new home but the Klipsch Site upload utility insists that 20k is 10,240 bytes!
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It could be worse... I can't find the dictionary any more...but, then, I built Heath Kits too... and would do so again if there were a Klipsch Kits alternative!
Sadly, that era seems to have passed us booth by. HornEd
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Given the apparant success of the CenterMod KLF-10 pictured above, I am tempted to take my oldest, most abused KLF-30 and modify it as a center by putting holes for a horizontal layout in a new baffle board. There is plenty of room and strength in the Mitsu RPHD 65" to hold it and even the shielding does not seem to be a great problem. Any tips out there? HornEd
PS: I also have a single KLF 10 that I could modify instead... but thought the timbre matching might be an issue. I have a C-7... and as you know, that isn't all that bad.
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"HornEd Herd"
Front Six Pack:
KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7
KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects
Side Surround:
KLF 30 on KSW-12 L/R
Rear Effects:
KLF 10 L/R
Rear Center:
KLF 10 atop KSW-12
Speaker Support Systems:
Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"
Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver
... and counting!
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JTS8 posted the following:
Since I see a few posts about the Acadamy center, one is to be had on Ebay! it's item #1240338060 good luck!
Thought I would add it in case you had not seen it. For HT, the center is perhaps the most critical speaker... go for it before the surrounds IMHO. HornEd
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Keith, just a little applause for your "cheap-skated-ness." I started on this BB as "BargainEd" when for $300 I picked up a pair of demo KLF 30's from my local auth dealer... and a new C-7 for $320. I, too, have a reputation for putting discounted cash where my mouth is.
And, oh yes, I appreciate the buying tip you sent me privately.
You are the genuine 'Bama HECK Raiser... Hero of Enlightened Consumerism Klipsch... and those who lurk for your lines are legion.
Keep on poundin'
the Joy of Klipsch and showing us how. HornEd -
What a great sonic array, red_eye! Your config gives me incentive for my own. I note that you have KLF 30's front and KLF 20's rear and use KSP-S6's on the side... with bass boosts all around... not so far from what I currently use.
I use a pair of KLF 30's on the side to get more out of discrete 5.1-6.1 sound sources. Using BabyBoomers to augment your KSP-S6's seems like a solution to both the "ambient" and "discrete" sound issues. How does it stack up for timbre match with your mains on back-to-front pans?
I have been leaning toward picking up a pair of the new Klipsch RS-7's but may try another pair of KSF 30's and try to augment them somehow for "ambient" effects program material.
Let us know more about your bass management set-up and results. Thanks for the post and keep taking care of your ears.
HornEd------------------
"HornEd Herd"
Front Six Pack:
KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7
KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects
Side Surround:
KLF 30 on KSW-12 L/R
Rear Effects:
KLF 10 L/R
Rear Center:
KLF 10 atop KSW-12
Speaker Support Systems:
Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"
Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver
... and counting!
HornEd
Perhaps it was because I have authored too many absurd and inane posts.
HornEd
experience. Enjoy! HornEd
HornEd
HornEd
HornEd
Two Horned KLF 30 Booster?
in Technical/Restorations
Posted
Wow, ColaBear, that is a challenging layout... and since you seem very pleased (as well you might) we Klipsch aficionados understand the "tweaking urge"... except for one who has strayed into an exotic fridge fetish
!
Predicting acoustics is much more realistic with standard rectangles... so much open space, columns, windows, etc. make it an empirical room where trial and error reign supreme. So, here's a few quick comments:
1) Indeed, the width of your HT area allows the surround KLF 30's the room they need to allow a single midrange horn to have a better "ambient" effect.
2) Which naturally follows with the challenge of the lack of distance behind your primary listening area to get the same benefit from additional KLF 30's. Personal experience indicates that KLF 30's are not all that bad fairly close (3'-4') to ones ear as rear effects speakers... but some of the drama is lost. I would take a "sound wall" approach (as BobG calls it). A pair of KLF 30's with their fronts roughly even with rear wall (i.e., the back end of the speakers extending beyond the rear wall). Horns have a distinct advantage in rooms like this since they do not have as great a dependency on reflections that direct radiating speakers do. I would probably delay the signal to the rear effects KLF 30's to achieve the effect of more depth to your listening area by sending the rear effects signal through a second amplifier which has a provision for a phantom center channel. I have previously used this technique to good effect for showroom theaters that seat as many as sixty people.
3) I am curious about the placement of your subwoofer. Obviously, if it sounds best were you have it, that is where it should be. But, most quality subwoofers would benefit from a placement in the one good bass corner in your otherwise open room.
4) Personally, I would pull my mains closer to the edges of your 100" screen to keep dialogue and image more tightly configured to create a more dynamically realistic illusion between your ears. You have a wonderfully broad rear sound stage... so I would add front effects Klipsch speakers on columns to raise the horns to at least 6' high... and angle them toward the prime listening target... and set them a few dB below the mains (using the SPL meter). This gives the benefit of a dramatic high and wide sound stage without creating sonic gaps between speaker and screen.
5) Have you "tuned" your system for placement and volume with an SPL (Sound Pressure Level) meter (The analog one at Radio Shack works better... about $30)?
Well, ColaBear, that's my "quick & dirty" take on your set up and what I might do if it were mine. But, then again, my ex-wives will tell you that I am a bit eccentric... but the sound systems I left with them (including Khorns and projections systems) were not a source of complaint. My current config is designed to benefit the cognitive processes of my aged mother... and, so far, it seems to be working... and KLF 30's seem to work best by virtue of her positive response to them. Fortunately, the side benefits to me and our HT guests have been astounding.
I will try to get back to you when I have more time. Thanks for asking. Hope this gives you more incentive to push the envelope on Hope (AR) products. HornED