HornEd
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Posts posted by HornEd
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STL, you have hit
on what is a key issue... building a system for yesterdays surround technology or building a system for today and beyond. Klipsch WDST technology is an attempt to make the best of an awkard situation and bridge the gap of having what breaks down into two systems of multi-channel (i.e., beyond two-channel) recording. Many of us are exploring ways we can get better results."Surround sound" and discrete center channels existed before Dolby ProLogic caught on. The rear channels were fed primarily narrow frequency mid-range "auditory clues" that blended with the mains, center and subwoofer (in a better system) to provide a sense of orientation within the sound envelope. What I refer to as auditory clues were more localized than the more ethereal "ambient" sound in the Dolby ProLogic approach. In the early surround approach, there is not enough information in these surround channels to warrant ultra high speakers.
The newer "discrete" surround and rear effects approaches tend to use a more robust frequency spectrum with the trend to having a full spectrum that may be called upon for greater realism. This is where timbre matching can become a real issue. If a tank rumbles from the rear of your HT to the front screen, you would like its characteristic sound to be the same from the rear effects speakers, to the side speaker, to the main speakers. On most systems, this is not the case because the side and rear speakers are usually not as robust as the mains.
WDST is an attempt to have a woofer firing directly toward the listener to handle the "discrete" programming and two 90 degree horns to provide the "ambient" effects. Since discrete programming can be proportioned between discrete speakers, an ambient aspect can be matrixed into the surround and rear effects speakers. Obviously, the WDST approach handles this aspect quite well.
While WDST speakers make a noble attempt to be all things to all people, to date, they fall short in providing the timbre, sensitivity and character of the main speakers... a factor that should become increasingly important as new DVD's are released with sound engineers targeting the full potential of 5.1, 6.1 and 7.1 systems. The problem with most side surround speakers is the same as with many attempts at finding the right center channel... the "same sound" that travels from one speaker to the next does not sound like the "same sound!"
I have tried several surrond configurations, including WDST, and found that using the same side speakers as the mains is much preferred (in my case KLF 30's). I would like to have a speaker with a pair of opposing mid-range horns that match the KLF 30 that could be placed atop the KLF 30 to augment the "surround" aspects of older DVD and cable fare.
On balance, I would rather build my system for today and tomorrow by using duplicates of the mains for side and rear effects speakers. Having an amp that plays 6.1 straight and matrixes 6.1 from 5.1 material is a distinct advantage. Having two side speaker and one rear speaker that match the mains creates a "diamond shape" similar to the way most diamonds are cut to reflect a greater amount of light. For HT, that is two mains close to the screen, ceter above, sides further apart and faced toward listener, and a rear effects on the back wall. This provides a good fill for sounds that transcend one or more speakers. It costs more, but especially with Klipsch speakers, it delivers multi-channel music and DVDs with gusto! HornEd
PS: The rapture of music a two-channel audiophile system is a whole different issue... but slumming with a good 6.1 matched speaker system can bring more musical joy than you might imagine.
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"HornEd Herd"
Front Six Pack:
KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7
KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects
Side Surround:
KLF 30 on KSW-12 L/R
Rear Effects:
KLF 10 L/R
Rear Center:
KLF 10 atop KSW-12
Speaker Support Systems:
Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"
Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver
... and counting!
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What's to hate? I think you will find that the majority of folks on this board applaud your good fortune... and especially that fact that you have caught the "Klipsch Bug" and stand on the threshold of understanding what "the pursuit of happiness" really means.
The first decision is whether you will pursue building a Home Theater that will covert your wife (and, no doubt, add more Klipsch speakers) or, perhaps, follow the classic two channel route to audio nirvanna. The amp path you seek will vary with your orientation (and your wife's willingness to accept life after her mate has been so bitten.
Actually, listening to your new found gems with a quality amp may go along way to convincing your wife that when it comes to horns, beauty is never skin deep but ugly is always to the bone!
You'll find plenty of caring Klipsch posters who will be happy for your good fortune and helpful to your migration into the revealing nature of Klipsch as you rediscover the audio/video content in which you have been investing your time.
You have taken the time to discover the lineage of your Klipsch find, now , win a stay of execution from your wife
and post what gear you have and in what direction you would like to go in the appropriate forum (e.g., Home Theater, Two Channel).Very quickly, you will find responses appropriate to your audio expertise. Welcome aboard the board... and wear your find as a badge of honorable fortune... and not a reason to hate. HornEd
Say, if you would like to get rid of those wife abusing monsters at $50 each...
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"HornEd Herd"
Front Six Pack:
KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7
KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects
Side Surround:
KLF 30 on KSW-12 L/R
Rear Effects:
KLF 10 L/R
Rear Center:
KLF 10 atop KSW-12
Speaker Support Systems:
Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"
Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver
... and counting!
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Now's the time to find another KLF 20 (or two) to use as 6.1 (7.1)rear effects speaker(s). You will be even more impressed when you are completely "Legendary!" HornEd
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"HornEd Herd"
Front Six Pack:
KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7
KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects
Side Surround:
KLF 30 on KSW-12 L/R
Rear Effects:
KLF 10 L/R
Rear Center:
KLF 10 atop KSW-12
Speaker Support Systems:
Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"
Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver
... and counting!
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Hmmm, there is a lot to like between Denon, Marantz and Yamaha. Personally, I am having a hard time switching from my Yammie with its dedicated front effects channels that allow me to tuck the KLF 30's close to the monitor... for a superior front sound stage.
~ HornEd------------------
"HornEd Herd"
Front Six Pack:
KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7
KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects
Side Surround:
KLF 30 on KSW-12 L/R
Rear Effects:
KLF 10 L/R
Rear Center:
KLF 10 atop KSW-12
Speaker Support Systems:
Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"
Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver
... and counting!
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I agree with SteveP... it is well worth the effort. Years ago when DPL was just surfacing, I piggybacked a pair of Yamaha's to create a surround and rear channel system for our 60 seat showroom theater. For its day, it was fabulous... in fact it "wowed" the audio experts from Hard Rock Cafe corporate (before it was sold to the Brits).
There is something special about making your own HT conglomeration rival the offerings of those who do it for a living... and, now, when we are in the middle of shifting recording techniques, assembling a matrixed surround/rear effects system does indeed breathe new life into "neo-classic" offerings. Frankly, many of the "new" 5.1 releases have been rushed through the process and would sound better through a piggybacked hybrid.
Currently, I hear all 5.1 as matrixed 6.1... and any actual 6.1 as actual 6.1... so my HT guests and I can attest to the value of a rear effects channel. It closes the "flap" on your sound "envelope" and creates a much greater "feel" of being in the center of the arena rather than looking down from the coliseum "cheap seats" or even the Imperial Box.
With a little tinkering, you will be amazed at what can be done. Remember, we are living in an age where the "latest and greatest" amp offerings are at best compromises... and usually are weaker in bass management... and "out-to-lunch" on keeping up with "discrete" and "ambient" side surround formats.
Like many others on this BB, I have reached out for the best I can find so many times that I have had a lot of discarded equipment to play with... and piggybacking old surround receivers can be especially rewarding. Particularly since adding speakers fed by "shaped" sound images provides an opportunity to reshape the perceived acoustics of a given HT environment. Enjoy!
HornEd------------------
"HornEd Herd"
Front Six Pack:
KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7
KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects
Side Surround:
KLF 30 on KSW-12 L/R
Rear Effects:
KLF 10 L/R
Rear Center:
KLF 10 atop KSW-12
Speaker Support Systems:
Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"
Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver
... and counting!
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Kerry, thanks for the swift reply. I appologize for not being more clear in my post. Fortunately, I understand that the source material is the problem and that the WDST speakers are built to accomodate both the older "surround" effects encoding and the latest approach which provides for discrete sounds directed to multiple strategically placed speakers.
My concern is that the WDST speakers now available do not provide sufficient direct radiating sound for discretely recorded material in comparison to using KLF 30's for surround speakers. But, the KLF 30's lack the additional horn array it would take to cover a 180 degree "ambient" spectrum required to get the most out of program material recorded in the older format.
Thus, if an "ambiant booster" speaker containing two exponential horns aimed essentially front and back, as in the WDST type speakers, then the mid-range array would radiate as a surround speaker. The point was to continue to use the KLF 30's woofers to provide the timbre matching that the current implementation of WDST technology does not meet.
We may expect that the new RS-7 may come closer... but it is almost too much to hope that it can meet the quality and timbre of putting a KLF 30 in a side surround position.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if there was an appropriate binding post in a KLF 30 that would allow an additional "ambiant booster" to be plugged in at the right frequency range... piggy backing the mid-range horn.
Obviously, progress will, one day, make such extreme measures unneccessary... but, it sure would be nice to be able to enjoy my "Klipsch Herd" at their best on the distinctly different program materials that are available today. It looks like it will be awhile before amp and speaker manufacturers are in sync with each other and those who create the program material. Maybe a better approach would be to convert old style ambiant material to a multichannel discrete format. Whatever the solution, having all speakers as close to the same seems to provide the best potential for enjoyable sound... and speaker sales.
HornEd -
The Klipsch WDST approach builds a bridge between program material that is "discrete" (in your face) and "ambiant" ('round about). Having used KLF 30's as discrete surround speakers in 5.1 and 6.1 configs, I have been spoiled by the timbre matching and sonic depth they provide for HT. If they have a failing, it is in the lack of extra horns aimed front and back (as in the WDST speakers).
So, would it be possible to order parts from Klipsch that could be assembled into a cabinet that could be placed atop the KLF 30's in the surround positions so they could have a WDST attribute?
It would seem that the strain on the amps would be minimal if only the mid-range horns were added. At least that sounds like a better alternative than having WDST surround speakers with a diminished direct radiating capacity when contrasted with KLF 30 mains.
Certainly, there have been many experts who recommend having the same speakers all around for the new standards in sound recording... all the sides need is some boost in the ambiance department.
How about it all you speaker builder/engineers... am I making any sense at all?
HornEd------------------
"HornEd Herd"
Front Six Pack:
KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7
KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects
Side Surround:
KLF 30 on KSW-12 L/R
Rear Effects:
KLF 10 L/R
Rear Center:
KLF 10 atop KSW-12
Speaker Support Systems:
Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"
Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver
... and counting!
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I hear you, Boa. My gut feel is to order a pair of horns that match the KLF 30 and build a cabinet that directs them a good 180 and then add them in parallel to the KLF 30 surrounds. Somehow, there seems to be a chance that that would allow "verbal clue" dispersion with the punch of a KLF 30 on discrete.
While it is unlikely that a novice could come up with a really good sound... it would cost less than reaching for a Klipsch that couldn't.
Suddenly, my authorized Klipsch dealer isn't smiling. Hey, I just want something that really works and willing to pay. HornEd
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Hmmm, sound philosophy! Could it be that dougdrake seems to be approaching that Klipsch mid-life posting crises where the administrator will elevate him to "No Life" status... less than a hundred posts to go. Now I am beginning to understand
what's between the horn and the driver in a Klipschead. Ain't it great! HornEd -
Welcome back AVman... we must all learn to be as alert as the Boa... but then his namesake is an expert on "constricted" personalities.
And BobG, thanks for reminding us that Klipsch goes out of its way to be the best that it can be. HornEd
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I have bought both the RC-3 and, later, a new KLF C-7 (which are becoming hard to get)... I have kept the C-7 as the better match for my Legends. The RC-3 is an excellent center for its compact size and price. I suspect, however, that the new RC-7 will be an even better match for larger Klipsch speakers... and would hold out for the month or so it will take to get them into a Klipsch soundroom near you.
Patience may be a virtue for some but it's a necessity for the Klipsch consumer.
HornEd------------------
"HornEd Herd"
Front Six Pack:
KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7
KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects
Side Surround:
KLF 30 on KSW-12 L/R
Rear Effects:
KLF 10 L/R
Rear Center:
KLF 10 atop KSW-12
Speaker Support Systems:
Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"
Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver
... and counting!
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Yo Avman, I just wish I were closer to you, N.O.La guy, so I could take those wretched "Pyle" of "Samsung" horns off your hands... without having to pay for some "substandard" trucking firm to get them here. I've got four and could use two more.
Having been a manufacturer of specialty high-end electronics prior to retirement, I have some idea of what it takes to put out a quality product in a global economy. Fortunately, it is the "Klipsch Sound" that we have been buying for over half a century... and not the "Klipsch Component List."
On balance, the economy of Hope and the Indy Rennaissance join our global consumers in thanking Paul, Fred & Co. with filling our Klipsch ears for all these years... it is no mean trick... Pyle or Samsung not withstanding. HornEd
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Well, ColaBear, you caught me in a phase shift of sorts. I, too, truly enjoy the sound of a KLF 30 doing its thing in concert with other KLF 30's. I now have two pair of KLF 30's and use them as mains and surrounds. Thus far, I have been dissappointed with WDST speakers I have tried... but I have yet to try the new RS-7's of which BobG has waxed ecstatic. Ideally, I think I would prefer a KLF 30 with a two extra horns to provide a 180 degree ambiant sound as program material would dictate. Having heard the KLF 30's in a surround position, everything else pales in comparison for discrete program matierial.
I also have three KLF 10's... that were bought due to the derth of 30's around here.
You should note that I am using a pair of SB-2's on 6 ft. columns spaced 3 ft. on either side of the mains as front effects speakers. They provide a wider sound stage tweaked to sound just behind that of the center channel and mains. This arrangement lends a great depth to the front array whether it be part of a grand spectacle or an intimate scene with ethereal music in the background.
In essence, I chose the SB-2's as the most Klipsch for the least weight that was not WDST. I would be happy if I could get the same effect with a WDST to augment the KLF 30 surrounds. I will try a pair of RS-7's as surrounds with the KLF 30's moved to the rear... but I have some doubts... as you probably do too.
If I can find another pair of 30's around here, I will likely reconfigure one 30 to be a full size center channel (my RPHD 65" can hold it and I expect that I would just orient the horns between the two woofers and see what it sounds like) and thus have an array of three 30's in front (plus the front effects) and three 30's in the rear.
I think, in this room, that I prefer 6.1 plus front effects... and that is eight Klipsch speakers... not including the four subs. With careful tweaking by positioning and SPL meter, this configuration really draws one into the heart of a well "sound designed" film... and really shines in one with quality musical content.
I use the extra two KLF 10's experimentally to bolster rear or surround channels with a separate amplifier. It is easier to design a sound environment with multiple speakers and time apportionment than to tear down walls and buy extra property to build on!
~Thanks ColaBear, it is good to hear from a fellow multiple KLF 30 kinda guy. Do you think the RF-7 is really going to give our 30's a run for our attention?
HornEd
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OK, all SD firelight sagas aside... your question of 5.1 vs. 6-7.1 and side channel placement in front of the primary listening area deserve a more comprehensive response.
In my set up, there is a working area behind the primary listening area... which fairly closely approximates your side placement situation. IMHO, the effect created by sitting in the working area is that of a "sound tunnel" with some added sounds half way down the tunnel... and an up close and personal attention getter from the rear channel directly behind. While not altogether displeasing... it is far from the benefit of the primary listening area located about 12 feet from the mains. You, however, have the advantage in the wide dispersion area of the RS-3's compared to my "surround" KLF 30's.
Like the inner joy having your fireplace as part of your standard view, the sense of being enveloped by the action and/or music make the rear center channel (or dual rear channels) a huge plus.
Your best bet might be a ceiling mounted rear Klipsch speakers to get some vertical distance between your "ears" and your "rears."
HornEdThis message has been edited by HornEd on 05-17-2001 at 08:51 AM
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thdrought, how is the view of the fireplace when you place your mains on a short wall? I have similar room dimensions but am warped enough to prefer the everyday "sound view" of Klipsch array to the once-in-awhile romance of a woodfired crackle. Hmmm, maybe I really am getting older...
7.1 systems need a little space (or more importantly, a delay to allow the illusion of space) to be more dramatic. Also, positioning the speakers closer together in the front (and possibly wider apart in the rear) seem to enhance the HT illusion. Putting your system on the long wall may invite "sonic holes" that go over like a plastic fireplace.
Hmm, maybe you need a couch that rotates ninty degrees with your mood? Have fun. HornEd
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"HornEd Herd"
Front Six Pack:
KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7
KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects
Side Surround:
KLF 30 on KSW-12 L/R
Rear Effects:
KLF 10 L/R
Rear Center:
KLF 10 atop KSW-12
Speaker Support Systems:
Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"
Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver
... and counting!
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In mid consternation over upgrading receivers, going to separates, etc. I suddenly realized that I was truly enjoying that which I already had. And, further, any change in receivers was going to necessitate making some compromises of unknown outcome. And, after all, how it sounds should indeed be the critical test. Listening to the Denon 5800 in the showroom did not convince me that the sound was better than what I already had... but then, I believe my HT is set up better (speaker placement, acoustic treatments, etc.) than the dealer's best sound room.
So I am going to wait and see on the amp issue... and pick up a pair of RS-7's as soon as they hit the dealer and pare the room down to 7.1 with a pair of front effects. BobG says they match the Legends better than any other HT alternative... so I am willing to put my money where his mouth is!
~ <Hey BobG, that little "stick his tongue out" rascal is still broken.I do appreciate all the thought provoking comments that have been made on this thread and others where parallel issues were raised. I had been away from the music/HT wars for too long... and this BB raised my consciousness in a heartbeat. To all you lurkers out there, come on in and share your expertise and your dreams... there are some fine folks to meet in Planet Klipsch... some of them even work for the company! HornEd
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"HornEd Herd"
Front Six Pack:
KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7
KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects
Side Surround:
KLF 30 on KSW-12 L/R
Rear Effects:
KLF 10 L/R
Rear Center:
KLF 10 atop KSW-12
Speaker Support Systems:
Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"
Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver
... and counting!
This message has been edited by HornEd on 05-14-2001 at 01:16 AM
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I too like the dealer and warranty... even if it costs a few bucks in front... it's better than a lotta bucks later. Oddly enough, I was also unable to find a C-7 at a dealer but bought one on the net from a Klipschead that decided to do center Hereseys... so I got it in the original box a couple weeks out of the dealer for $320. Now, if only I can find someone nice enough to part with a pair of KSP-S6's on such a deal. Anyhow, I'd tip my hat to your deal
if I could just figure out how! HornEdPS: And Craig and I can always use a "Klarevoyant Klipsch" buddy... right Craig
Wow, he's still waving! -
Hey Craig! With all that waving, are you looking to become a "Keith Buddy" too!
What's your next Klipsch after-market investment tip? Or should we just send money and let Keith do the talking?
Seriously, Keith, all of us Klipsch nostalgia buyers tip our collective hats to your fortunate skill application of eKlipsching eBay! And, personally, I appreciate the replies you have given my posts over time. Keep lookin' out for us.
HornEdSo, Talk-to-Keith & Co., what is your turn-key seven KSP-300 price now
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Thanks for the alert and the history guys. Sadly, I have never heard an KSP-S6 up close and personal and will watch the bidding carefully. I would like to add a pair of KSP-S6's for a fitting nostalgic complement to my existing double pair of KLF 30's.
I must confess, though, the new RS-7's appear to be more of what I would like a KSP-S6 to be "sound-wise" with my herd of Legends. Who knows, a pair of RS-7's might start a stampede to a whole new herd! Hmm, I guess the thirty happy years I spent in the Texas Hill Country still has its effect.
Didn't Klipsch announce a May '01 availability on the new line? It's "May K-fellas n' gals" and we haven't even been delivered official on-line specs and photos to drool over. I know you got to sell what's in the store, but most of us that "hang" round this BB are either (1) collecting "Nostalgia Klipsch" to enhance the Klipsch legendary aspects... or (2) Believe the legend and want to stake a claim on the latest aspect of it. Besides, my local Klipsch dealer will confirm by qualifications of buying what he has to sell.
If you can't give us a break by making product available... at least give us a
peek! HornEd -
Hey BartW... just thought I'd offer you a cyber-hug
and add a little frustration and a touch of humor to your smashing self retort !!! I have been watching your post as I also have four KLF 30's and a C-7 and I am strongly considering trading in my Yamaha RX V-3000 on a Denon 5800.
I must admit, though, that I did get a bunch of worthwhile posts on my query... and I am far from being a "No Life" on Planet Klipsch... but I come far too close on Planet Earth
~Perhaps the problem you are having with the surrounds is the universal problem that some program material is discrete full range sound and other material is the old technique of imbedding "auditory clues" which create an illusion in the listener's head. The dipole speakers will help for that. Personally, I have been pleasantly surprised with the surround KLF 30's as surround speakers... but I placed them facing each other on the sidewalls aimed just behind the prime listener's head and atop KSW-12's which add some HT punch. So far the KSP-S6's were the speaker of choice, but now we will have to wait for this summer's great unvailing.
The creation of effective "discrete/abiance" surrounds has been a pet frustration of mine for years. Debnon tried alleviate the problem with dual surrounds... but I think that the solution requires cooperation of source material creators, receiver/amp builders and speaker manufacturers who build in Hope.
Yet, if there is a special problem with the 5800 I sure would like to know.
Who knows, maybe you have gotten one of the infamous Denon lemons reported once in a Blue Moon? Hope you get some answers before you get "peequed" and start urging all the non-reply Denon/KLF-30 folks to eat some of that "lemonade" laden snow. HornEd
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"HornEd Herd"
Front Six Pack:
KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7
KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects
Side Surround:
KLF 30 on KSW-12 L/R
Rear Effects:
KLF 10 L/R
Rear Center:
KLF 10 atop KSW-12
Speaker Support Systems:
Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"
Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver
... and counting!
This message has been edited by HornEd on 05-12-2001 at 12:58 AM
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Hey Boa!!! Do that... the meter really can make a difference. Like your fellow "No Life" BobG said, set the analog meter (stay away from the digital) on 75 and then set every speaker individually to "Rock On" and together they will make you PROUD
! HornEd -
Thanks, Rocky for your encouragement. I have had great results with Yammies for well over a decade. In fact, over ten years ago I hand built matrixed 6.0 system using two Yammie surround sound units for parts. It featured proportioned response mains instead of a center channel since the screen was 18' x 9" with a massive digital overhead projector and a 15" floor-firing sub built into a lectern (so I could get it closer to the audience). Oh, yeah, and it sat 60 people and blew away the folks that installed Hard Rock Cafe's systems. My current system is primarily to provide HT stimulation for my 93 yr.-old mom... and I think the RX V-3000 does HT better than any other Yammie. You're right, Yammie has been a winner for me!
And, Boa, I am sorry, I posted a reply on another thread for you... but it must have been lost in the flood. The front effects speakers are geared to provide a background ambiance to frame the front sound stage. That is why they only provide a 25 watt amplification for each front effect speaker... they are only giving out "audio cues" and are an outgrowth of Yammie's acoustic research of famous sound venues. I like them because they allow me to tuck the mains right up to the 65" RPHD monitor to eliminate the perceived dialogue gap that may occur between a corner speaker location and the screen... and the front effects still give much of the benefit that a corner located speaker would give. The more natural the sound image, the more benefit viewers, like my mom, get from the system. The front effects are also 6' high and there is just enough delay to create an illusion of a higher wide open effect... or a close-in effect. As I mentioned on an earlier post, it took some spirited expirimentation to get them to work as nicely as they do now.
I do not know what is the best course... and I have a sneaking suspicion that a few alternatives (including one by Denon) will be released this summer and fall. I need to get out and check out Marantz. I haven't had a Marantz for over thirty years... back when I had hearing that allowed me to enjoy the upscale stuff.
Anyway, thanks guys... I don't feel so lonely in this decision making when good folks make valid contributions. And, yes, boa, that includes humor! Someday I'll have to post the mystery of John Madden's first car, a '39 Cad in '53, was "blown up" by someone on the football team. Talk about one mad Madden
! HornEd -
I like this icon since it reflects the bumps one takes as a consumer until he gets a "gem" of a system... only to find another bump and need to feed the HT/music habit...
Thanks for the manual attempt, Boa. But, I borrowed the actual manual from my local dealer... and have yet to find anything definitive on my bass questions. If I elect to pick up the Denon, I will probably use a pair of KLF 10's on a delay for the second surrounds and the lone KLF 10 and a KSW-12 for the rear center.
Again, I continue to be amazed at how well the KLF 30's do as surrounds.
Some say the Denon 5800 is a bit "warmer" than the Yammie and, therefore, makes a "better balanced" sound given the brightness of horns. I really appreciate comments from folks who experience the real thing... like ColaBear.
Then again, as I hear the herd of horns being pushed by my Yammie 3000... I really can't complain. HornEd
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Thanks, ColaBear, I needed that! So many Denon horror stories had put me off a bit... and this will be my first Denon product. Don't get me wrong, I like to get good value for my money... but spending a lot of my time in a hassle is much more expensive to me than the unit. Unfortunately, I bought the last set of KLF 30's that I know of in the SF Bay Area... so my local authorized dealer can't do an instore demo. Having the 30's as surrounds is much better than anticipated... and now, if I can find one, I would like to put a KLF 30 (or two) as rear effects speaker(s). But 6.1/7.1 has been a very worthwhile environment and the 5800's ability to bring it about from nearly any source material intreques me. Is it as good as I think it is?
For months I also did not think much of the front effects... then I set them up in a more agressive posture and they HAVE made a difference. If I take the 5800 deal, I will likely rig up an external amp to continue using a front effects soundstage.
There is one burning question for which I have not found an acceptable answer, ColaBear. Can the 5800 be made to pare off ALL of the subwoofer range lows of ALL seven channels and send them to the sub outs? My research with low frequency augmentation of aging neural pathways points me toward having the front and rear speaker arrays pumping out discrete bass to 80hz (for directionality) and the subwoofer array pumping out the majority of the non-directional and "feel" bass. I am not sufficiently clear about bass management parameters in the 5800.
Thanks again, ColaBear... you put the fizz back in my quest!
HornEdThis message has been edited by HornEd on 05-11-2001 at 10:17 AM
on what is a key issue... building a system for yesterdays surround technology or building a system for today and beyond. Klipsch WDST technology is an attempt to make the best of an awkard situation and bridge the gap of having what breaks down into two systems of multi-channel (i.e., beyond two-channel) recording. Many of us are exploring ways we can get better results.
and post what gear you have and in what direction you would like to go in the appropriate forum (e.g., Home Theater, Two Channel).
~ HornEd
HornEd
HornEd
HornEd
HornEd
~ <Hey BobG, that little "stick his tongue out" rascal is still broken.
if I could just figure out how! HornEd
Wow, he's still waving!
HornEd
!!! 
! HornEd
! HornEd
Klf-30
in Home Theater
Posted
Wow, Covey21, sure wish you had those available when I was in Fort Worth... but none the less, I would like to pick up another pair of KLF 30's for cash. Any idea on how much insured shipping to San Francisco, CA, might be? Let's do a deal, I have two pair of KLF 30's now and am looking for another pair.
By the way, why do you find yours expendable?
Let's get together. You can reach me on email at eddennis@rcn.com HornEd
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"HornEd Herd"
Front Six Pack:
KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7
KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects
Side Surround:
KLF 30 on KSW-12 L/R
Rear Effects:
KLF 10 L/R
Rear Center:
KLF 10 atop KSW-12
Speaker Support Systems:
Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"
Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver
... and counting!