Ski Bum
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Take a guess what the distortion #'s are on you speakers...
I recall the old Julian Hirsch review of the forte, and measured THD (at 90db, 1m) was ridiculously low, <0.2% above 50 hz, with a max of 1.2% at 23 hz.
I'll make a wild guess: the Heritage and other Extended Heritage speakers perform similarly.
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Wow, the OP sure is grumpy.
While I try to keep it real as a general approach to things, I'm in Colin's camp. SET amps simply rule when it comes to my subjective enjoyment. I'm not sure if I like them in spite of their flaws or because of them (and I think I have a pretty solid handle on just what it is they do, thanks to Mark Deneen, Bob Carver, Erik2A3, Colin, Marvel, tubefanatic, and others who post here). Whatever the case may be they undeniably get me closer to the music. The fact that they are typically much less expensive than PP tubes is a bonus, and when used only for the horns as Colin suggested helps sidestep some of their shortcomings and magnify their strengths.
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UPA1
[THD+N ratio @ 4ohm = 0.279648 %
Wow, that's worse than my twenty year old NAD.[:|] I recently replaced the power supply caps and some relays for $70, and on the bench she measured 0.04% THD into 4 ohms, at output considerably higher than it's 'rated' power. I was actually considering an Emo as a replacement, but now I'm glad I opted to fix the old amp.
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Quad ESLs.
I've found of all the different speaker types avialable I like horns and planars the best.
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Score on the forte II! The cheap upgrades for fortes are well worth it (Bob's ti tweet diaphragm and new caps for the crossover). Inexpensive, and undeniable improvement.
I lived with KG4s years ago, and feel they're not even in the same league as fortes, but for surround duty where perfect matching is less critical they may suffice.
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A friend of mine has 2 UPA-1 , He let me use them last weekend and my RF-7s sounded better to me .
Now what sounds better to one might not sound better to another , and for the XPA-2 I will change my
words about being an overkill , To myself its an overkill thats why I sold mine .
Makes sense to me.
Dual mono > stereo. No crosstalk results in a better stereo image.
Also, per the Emo site, the UPA amps actually have better distortion specs than the XPA. Could it be that the high gain/high efficiency speaker allows you to hear the difference? Doubtful, but maybe.
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I'd like to pick up an XPA-2 with the Emotiva Holiday Sale (when back in stock). I'd pair it to my RF-7IIs. My only concern is that the XPA-2 has a high gain structure (32db) and the RF-7IIs are so efficient. I've heard you run the risk of creating a hissing sound when pairing such a high-gain amp with such high-efficiency speakers. Thoughts?
I tend to think that high gain amps with high sensitivity speakers act like a compound microscope focused on whatever is fed into the amp. That doesn't mean it's bad, just that the whole 'junk in, junk out' effect is perhaps more apparent in such a system. If you're front end is nice and quiet, Emo amps should be just fine.
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Nice! Is that a loaner, or the one you were considering buying? Regardless, it's good to hear what it does on your fortes as a first step, to get familiar with what you're shopping for.
Now, if it's still plugged in, throw on some music, get down and boogie!
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Sounds like this is a basic two channel rig, yes?
Have you had a look at Teac Reference series of components? Not cheap (new retail, that is), but quality build. Not sure if they have the connectivity of a full blown AVR, but maybe. Have a look:
http://www.teac.com/consumer_electronics/reference_series/reference_series_2011/
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From the sounds of this thread, it's time to replace both.
You are presently dissatisfied with your Klipsch, but explicitly state there are things about them you like. Indeed, they perform so well in some aspects that very few other speakers can match (high sensitivity, low distortion). While attempting the inexpensive suggestions so far (cotton, open cell foam plugs a la Gedlee), you should start your search for used Heritage. It may take a while for the right speaker for you to appear on the used market, so be patient.
Someone in Ohio just posted a beautiful pair of oiled walnut forte II in the classifieds section, and those would put your current speakers to shame. If you happen to be in Ohio, I would suggest you go check them out.
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Check out the offerings from companies like Decware
Their Torii just got a gushing review from Tone Audio. Reviewer bought the review sample. 25 watts, with claimed SET like personality. Well under budget. Sounds very interesting, particularly with the 30 day return policy. Extended in home auditions can't be beat.
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If I had 'Scalas and the budget, VRDs by Craig/NOSvalves would be on the short list.
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Great feedback guys. As I narrow my choices, I'm leaning towards an amp/pre amp set up. If I can find the right combination for the right price. I like having some kind of presence or loudness control and I just can't see spending the $$ for AM/FM that I will never listen to. No sub outputs wanted, so I would think I can find something that meets my simple needs but with a lot of power. A 2 channel with a phono and aux I can run my iPhone through with some tonal control and I will be a happy camper.
I'm in no hurry, half the fun is doing the research and receiving feedback from folks like you. My next step is the caps this week and I will see where I'm at after that.
Additional comments are very welcome and more news to come from my end.
The Yamaha variable loudness is indeed handy for dialing down the midrange. I have an old Yamaha and liked it with my fortes specifically for that feature. Yamaha's current stereo integrated amps still have it, but on the $/watt scale are more expensive than the HK and Outlaw mentioned before. If you can't live without the variable loudness, keep an eye on the used market for a more powerful Yamaha integrated.
I think that once you get into some serious power (i.e. the Outlaw, used NAD, a bigger used Yammie, Emotiva amps, etc) and upgrade those caps/tweets, that your desire for variable loudness will diminish greatly. The bass will seem bigger and stronger, which results in a more neutral freq balance to the sound with no processing needed. I used to use the Yamaha, but now use vintage NAD and haven't looked back.
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Hola losmorob-
Sounds like you have a sizeable room or like to blast it.
Outlaw RR2150 kind of stretches the budget, but would be ideal. Also check out the HK 3490, which is actually under budget. I suspect either of these would have better bass than what you've gotten so far. Both have digi inputs of some sort, which is kind of useful nowadays. Both are conservatively rated, and can drive fortes quite sufficiently.
I use NAD and give it the thumbs up too.
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If it's in working condition, it's a fantastic amp. I have a 2100 which I bought new about 20 years ago, same series as the 2700 (Monitor Series, made by Proton). I've had to replace relays and caps to keep it up to spec over the years, but those repairs were were very inexpensive. I should note that I also have newer vintage NAD, and frankly prefer the old stuff. Great with Klipsch.
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I'm not sure why studio monitors are getting such a bad rap here.
IMO, it isn't that studio monitors are bad. In their environment (near field listening typically in a well treated room), they get the job done quite well.
However, if you try and plop these same monitors in your average HT, you'll typically yield less than stellar results. Same thing happens when you try to use a screwdriver to drive a nail. You need the right tool for the right job.
Well, those particular speakers have lived in a well treated studio long ago, and several other acoustically diverse rooms along the way. They've been remarkably forgiving of the different rooms. They are pressed into the dubious service of HT right now, and they don't suck at it.
I wish my Klipsch were as forgiving and flexible regarding room placement.
Then again, the Klipsch are properly corner loaded, in a well treated room with just about ideal acoustics, and when the music starts it can be a moving experience. More often than not, actually, and that's what it's all about, right? Gestalt of music, indeed!
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I'm not sure why studio monitors are getting such a bad rap here. I have such a system, and it sounds almost as good as my Klipsch!
Cool discussion.
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This is kind of ghetto/duct tape approach, but I'm thinking if you use some temp insensitive material to mechanically stabilize the tubes it would fix your problem. Something like small pieces of radiator tubing between the very tops of the tubes and the sides of the chassis would only contact the tubes at the very tips (thus not inhibiting convective cooling of the tube), and hold them firmly within the sockets.
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Derrrickdj1, here's another link with a more complete complex answer:
http://knol.google.com/k/secrets-of-amplifier-and-speaker-power-requirements-revealed
Garyc, good points. Music is far different than industrial noise which the OSHA limits are based on.
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Take a look at this:
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
If you have an spl meter, you can use your listening position spl readings and plug in different watt values to figure out, at least ballpark, how many watts you're actually using.
Most of the time, you're using only a few watts. Using the above method, I'm using 2-3 watts to get to 95db at my chair.
It doesn't matter if your discussing Heritage, Reference, any other line. The important thing is sensitivity. A speaker that produces 100db/w/m requires only one-tenth the amp power as a speaker that produces 90db/w/m to achieve the same volume.
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But if i could take the CAYIN for less money do you think it could be good with the Fortè? or do you think that the pre proton + for example a DYNACO ST 70 could be better? or a tube preamp with my power amplifier proton is the best choice?
As you can see i'm really confused...
And you're picking our brains for info, which is what you should be doing at this stage.
The Cayin for less would probably work fine, as would the ST70, assuming it's up to snuff. Check out used values on each (eBay sales data, audiogon blue book) to make sure you don't pay too much. Don't pay more than you think you can re-sell it for, should you find it not to your liking. For the ST70, find out what, if anything, has been done as far as maintenance/upgrades. With used, I always audition before I buy, which rules out many potential purchases, but I just feel safer that way. Post any specific listing here for feedback.
Many forum users here use tube pre-amps to inject a bit of tube flavor. By doing so, you retain the benefits of proper ss power (low distortion, bass damping/control and power, extension at both ends), and get a bit of tubey harmonic embellishment. Or not, as low level tube circuits can be as neutral or as colored as the designer wishes.
I prefer tube amplifiers rather than line stages, because most of the 'flavor' I seek is due to interaction between the amps and speakers. That is only my personal choice, and one that strays from strict fidelity, but que sera sera. My ears dictate what sounds good to me, and I like it.
OldTimer is correct, fortes are not too terribly picky. And what you currently have is pretty darn good. Which means you should be patient, picky, and frugal regarding your tube amp or tube pre- you experiment with. If you can negotiate a reasonable price for a Cayin or ST70, either of which would be 'different' than what you're used to, don't be afraid to give it a try.
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Could you tell me a place where i can find instruction to replace caps in the crossover?
http://www.critesspeakers.com/
Shipping to Italy would be cost prohibitive, but take a look at Bob's site for some ideas.
I think that the CAYIN A88T could be my amp (it has remote too) but i should but it becouse nobody has it in my town. I have found one for 800€ that is more than 1000$.
Yeah, I'd pass, that's probably too much. Haggle them down, or pass. Now, if you found an ASL Wave-8 for a quarter of that price, you're in business. (Oh, wait, no remote. Doesn't your proton pre-amp have a remote?) Something will pop up, so keep your eyes open.
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Also look at Yamaha's pro amps, seem pretty solid, even have unbalanced rca inputs for us unbalanced users. [:|]
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Well, I can't find any English reviews on that particular amp.
What you should take away from this are a couple facts. If clean, accurate reproduction is what you're after, you will be hard pressed to do better than what you have. Maybe a Bryston, but even then, if you're not exceeding the amp's limits, you probably couldn't tell it apart from your Proton.
Class D amps are maturing, and there are a lot of excellent ones out there now. It looks like the GALACTRON may be such an amp, but that's just a guess. Even with those, you're still not going to surpass what you have now. They are designed for low distortion reproduction, with low output impedance, and to behave (ideally) as voltage source type amps. Just like what you have now.
When you start going down the path of tubes, it's their higher output impedances will play differently with your speakers. The effect is essentially like crapping on the signal for positive effect. "Horns love tubes" is kind of trite, but it's true. Such combos will win the Pepsi challenge more often than not.
If you are wanting to make things ambiguously "better", don't worry about the Proton; focus on the room and speakers (have you replaced caps in your crossover yet? Experimented with speaker location or room treatments?). Unless you're running out of power (highly doubtful, as your Proton is capable of delivering, what, 500 unclipped watts into a 4 ohm load?), changing amps is a waste of time and money.
If you want "different via amps" then explore amps that genuinely, actually do alter the presentation (i.e. tubes), under the knowledge that you are forsaking accuracy (in the strictest sense) for something subjectively different/better to your ears. Go used, to keep the expense of such experimentation within reason.
RF 82's just don't deliver enough bass :(
in Technical/Restorations
Posted
The sheer volume of the room may very well be too much for your sub and mains. Rather than buying a new receiver, consider running multiple subs.