Ski Bum
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Denti and venaka- The prices I listed were for bone stock forte ii's. If any of the speakers you're each considering contain upgrades, they may yet be a decent deal. Figure low $400 range for mint cabs, refinished or not, but otherwise stock; add for whatever has been done (typically sonicaps in the crossover and Crites tweeter diaphragms...a full blown Crites crossover w/ new autoformers and everything costs $300 or so, so be sure to have the seller fully disclose what has been done to them).
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Hey guys I will try post piks later, but I have the chance of getting some Forte's in oiled walnut. The gentleman says that they are mint with no marks but is asking 575.Is this the an ok price. .I feel like its an epray price in a way.
Thanks, and sorry for Hijacking, but it kind of relates to the main question.
The walnut is more rare, unless I'm mistaken, but $575 is pretty rich. I'd check 'em out, but haggle a bit if I were you. Are they stock, or have they been upgraded?
I paid $425 for mint oiled oak forte's earlier this year. Sold a pair of oak clr in about 6-7/10 for $325 at that time.
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The cabinets were apparently re-finished by the owner himself. This is purely cosmetic, no? Or does the condition of the cabs affect sound in any significant way?
No, but you do have to look at them every day, so hopefully he did a good job!
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To answer your previous question, they were shipped FedEx Ground using a commercial account (which happened to be that of the purchaser). Regular FedEx/UPS cost about double that.
Typically it's the condition of the cab which dictates how much folks are willing to pay. They usually go for $300-$450. Give the cabinets a through check for damage, peeling veneer, water stains, condition of the grille, etc.
The passive radiators are exposed, at high risk for damage, and unfortunately are not cheap to replace, although small tears and such can be effectively repaired for next to nothing. So make sure the woofs and passive are intact. Make sure all drivers function.
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But not a good price, either?
It's not unreasonable [the Phx pair]. If you get those local ones [a very good deal] and do the same upgrades you'll have about the same amount wrapped up in them, but without the added cost of shipping. I shipped a pair of fortes across the country for ~$120.
Good luck with the local ones. If they're in good condition, jump on them.
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Considering those fortes are already hot-rodded with Crites upgrades, it's actually not a bad price. Also, I've found that my fortes do better in small/moderate sized rooms, even though they're pretty large. Hereseys would require subs to compete, and Cornwalls are awfully big for a small room; they're huge in comparison to fortes.
Even if you get those, if your sex amps use the older trannys, it would make sense to get the bigger MQ trannys that bottlehead is now using, as that will extend the bass response of the amps down further, to take advantage of the forte's deeper capabilites. The older trannys start to roll the bass off below 40hz, and the fortes will dig deeper than that. I believe the MQ trannys will go below 30 before they roll off, and probably with less distortion too. It'd be a shame not to take advantage of that capability, even if you can't do it right away.
Welcome to the madness!
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Hmm. It seems you're pushing the limits as far as power and speaker sensitivity go.
If you end up returning the 61's, keep an eye out for some used Hereseys, or perhaps Quartets or other larger (if your room can accomodate them), more sensitive models. 2 watts makes my forte ii's sing. I've always personally preferred the three way Heritage models to the reference line, and you may too.
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I think skonopa nailed it. Your Bottlehead, IIRC, is designed for higher impedance speakers, so it may be having trouble providing the power into the impedance dips it's facing in the lower registers. That would definitely tip the response up. Does the amp have lower impeadanct taps you can connect the speakers to? If not, the bi-amping suggestion is a good one, or more simply, just using a more powerful, low impedance friendly amp. Bottlehead may offer different output trannys for lower impedance loads, but I'm not sure about that. Either way, you may have to do more than adjusting speaker placement to get the results you're looking for.
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I imagine the biggest grype one would have against such a setup would concern acoustic interference between the multiple drivers, adversely effecting imaging.
Two co-located speakers will boost output by ~6db if fed the same power. You don't get the volume increase because each speaker is seeing less power when driving both pairs simultaneously, as the Mighty Favog explained above. When running two pairs of speakers, you increase current demand from your amp, and it will probably run hotter driving both than just driving one pair. If it doesn't run excessively hot, you're probably safe.
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Hmm. There's just gotta be some Klipsch dudes in Chi town who use tubes and would want to show off their systems. Any takers, Chicago forum members?
Once you do the preliminary work that tf went over and you have your choices narrowed down, look in the used market. Friends don't let friends pay retail.
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Here is a much more convincing explanation (IMHO): http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/150846/1567490.aspx#1567490 - see the comment on Carver's explanation of tube amp reverb from a fairly recent video interview. I believe it is the high output impedance of the tube design that provides a room reverb effect, i.e., "spaciousness".
Yeah, that sounds more reasonable than my hare-brained theory. Cool thread and link, thanks! Bob is always interesting.
I think you and Mr. Carver are absolutely correct. High output impedance does allow the speakers to pick up room response and add it back into the signal. As a quick test, I unhooked the source completely from my left channel SET amp and played music on the other channel at moderately loud levels (~85db). Sure enough, on the side disconnected from the source I could faintly hear the music. It was very low level, competing with power supply hum, only distinctly audible with ears pressed against the speakers, but it was there. I don't have a pp amp handy to try this with, but I imagine the room-reverb would be even more subtle, given their slightly lower output impedances. There is no sound from the disconnected channel at all when I tried this with ss amps. This goes a long way to explain how tube amps make musical notes seem to hang in the air a bit longer, and how the sense of acoustic space is subjectively enhanced. Pretty cool effect. It also helps explain why processors never quite accomplish the same trick as tube amps driving speakers.
I think that a DJ reverb unit spliced in a processor loop on the preamp would essentially do the same thing.
I could never achieve that, but I did waste a tremendous amount of time trying. Well, 'waste' may not express how fun it was.
What I noted above was much more subtle than the reverb units I tried, which were comparably heavy handed and artificial sounding even at the lowest possible settings. Also, the tube amp / room interaction results in aberrations specific to the listening room, where the processor's settings are arbitrary, so the results may be similar, but will never be exactly the same. The processor does to the signal just what you tell it to, but the high output impedance amp actually 'plays your room'. I personally find the amp/room method much more enjoyable.
BTW: I don't prefer reverb units...that I can't turn off...
Chris
A compelling argument.
When I want to turn it off, I have to swap amps. However, I often can't get the tubes back in the chain fast enough. The best policy is to have both, I suppose. One can never have too many amps.
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Only inside a horn waveguide, or at high (145 dB+) SPLs, and long distances. Concert sound system arrays are most affected by this issue.
Emphasis added.
This harmonic content shift of sound over large distances happens to be oddly similar to the distortion pastiche which single ended circuits impose on the sound, which may account for their ability to create the depth-of-auditory-field they're renouned for. Better sonics through higher distortion and perception trickery.
Of course, I could be completely wrong...it happens frequently, much to my chagrin. At least when you're wrong, it's a chance to actually learn something.
MDeneen, that's an insightful post. I would like to think that with more encompasing knowledge that the two approaches will eventually converge. Until then, the Klipsch forum is about the only place where you can discuss odd amps without either incurring the wrath of the objectivists, or drowning in the woo from the other side. I'm just glad that our Klipsch allow us to play with such toys in the first place.
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It is a fact that as sound propagates through air, low order distortion increases over distance.
I assume that you are referring to large distances (relative to the wavelength) and high intensities--like in the throat of a horn loudspeaker--to be significant/audible, right?
Chris
No. Well, yes, large distances relative to wavelength.
For an example, take your lion and park him on the goal line. Put microphones on the 5 yard, 50 yard, and opposing goal line. Make the lion roar somehow, and compare what your get at each mic. What will the measurements reveal? What, besides diminished spl, that is?
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John-
While I agree with your first point, you make an incorrect generalization about the distortion components. The low power SET amps I've seen on a scope (only a handful, mind you), were not characterized by even order harmonics, but low order harmonics, both even and odd, that diminish rapidly in an evenly descending pattern. I think Nelson Pass has engineered some of his amps to emphasize even order harmonics over the years.
It is a fact that as sound propagates through air, low order distortion increases over distance. Do you think human perception may have evolved to notice such things? How far away is that lion roar, anyway?
Is it purely coincidental that SET amps, which closely mimic this naturally occuring phenomenon, are so revered for their 'vibrancy, liveliness and holographic imaging'?
A little distortion may be more like real life after all.
Believe it! (Or just kick back and enjoy the music, however you like it.)
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I would recommend Decware for inexpensive, high value tube amps, of the low power variety. SET magic, but perhaps overly modest in the power department. New, a pair of SE84's or the SE34i integrated would run in the $1300-$1500 range, but you see them used for much less, $400-$800 . They do get snatched up quick, though. (I use a pair of bridged SE84 w/ forte II. It's awesome!!)
Another SET option would be some used Wrights. I've seen 2A3 monos go for $700 or so, which would be a pretty good deal. Also Wellborne amps, seen them for <$1K used, and they are highly regarded by many around here.
You could take the old classic approach and get a refurbed Dynaco ST-70 or Scott integrated. PP amp, more juice, and hold their value well. Pretty good ones are only a few hundred bucks typically.
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Have you compared for yourself? Years ago we treated a series od select DAC's for Analog Devices, they sent out matching identical sets of treated and non treated units to all their high end digital design customers. Guess which DAC's got the interest? The DAC's were not identified as treated nothing was said only that these were two slightly different versions of rhe same DAC and that they were looking for feedback. Best regards Moray James.
Well, I say they should have published their data and seen if others could replicate their results, at least if they are making broad claims about performance. Even if they're on to something, many won't believe it without seeing some agreed upon facts.
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Don- thanks for posting that graph. It looks like that shows 3-5db boost in the bass and treble areas, which seems to me to be just a 'smiley' eq curve. I was always told that high output impedance amps would have frequency aberrations where impedance peaks occur, i.e. at driver resonance frequencies. My ears never really bought this, as my tubed/Klipsch system sounds remarkably similar to another, more conventional, SS based, engineer approved system. I expected greater freq. aberrations, particularly when using a SET with an output impedance of around 3 ohms.
I've tried to replicate the tube amp sound using tubed pre-amps, tube line stages, and an assortment of eq/processors, and nothing sounds quite like tube amps driving speakers. It does not seem to me that what I'm hearing is just a smiley curve. The PP tubes I tried certainly sounded like SS, only richer, which appears to correspond nicely with your graph, but the SET's I've tried all have distinctly clearer low level detail retrieval, a peculiar dynamic contrastyness which gives music a more emotional impact (vocal inflections, the ability to pick apart every single note, etc.), not to mention the effect of expanding the sonic image in striking, 3-D ways. The only measurable thing which seems to correlate to this is high order but very low level harmonic information, and by all availble evidence such low level information should be below the threshold of audibility.
Perhaps related, when hooked up to a scope, my SETs don't produce harmonics above the tenth or eleventh unless grossly overdriven; ss and pp amps do (again, as long as not driven into gross clipping, the harmonic info should be so low as to be inaudible). At low levels (<1w), the SETs have very little harmonic information, and whats there is 2nd and 3rd order, which are typically perceptually masked by their proximity to the fundamental. There is a range between 3-6 watts where the harmonics increase (even and odd) up to about the 10th or so. Within certain limits, the harmonics from 4th up to 10th or 11th add body and bite to the sound without becoming objectionable (probably 5% THD at that point). The amps actual electrical output starts to top off past 5 watts, but the harmonic content is increasing within that range, giving the subjective impression of increased loudness. Of course, at some point the distortion becomes objectionable. But before that, the SET amp acts as an ideal compressor.
It is my opinion that the low level contrastyness you get with SETs happens to be very copasetic with horn speakers, which are adept at elucidating such delicate dynamic contrasts. No other amps I've tried with my Klipsch produce the same depth of image, where the music is dissociated from the speakers physical location, and isn't that a big part of what we're after? At the other end, when the SETs are at their limits, you get the harmonic 'bloom' and added subjective loudness without the chochlea shredding spl you would get were a proper, headroom-unlimited amp being used.
Perhaps I'm the victim of placebe effects, but I don't think I'm imagining things here. I may be completely off in trying to correlate the crude measurements I've seen and my subjective impressions. Despite their technical flaws, SET sound is distinctly pleasant, and addictive.
I actually go through SET withdrawal when I travel, and can't wait to bask in the glorious sonorities of SET driven Klipsch sound upon my return.
Gagelle, hope this info helps you in your tube search. I just shared about a decade of my personal tube experimentation with you.
As an experiment, I went back to the symphony again last night, using low power SET amps exlusively. Here are a few things I noticed:
-From the prior evenings session with SS, dynamic range for the concert I was listening to was from ~65db up to >105db, pretty close to reference levels. It never runs out of steam. The sound is big and bold, but kind of two-dimentional, like an IMAX presentation for the ears if you will. It was like drowning in loudness, a body encompassing experience of sheer power that the SETs just don't do.
-With SETs, had to turn it down a bit, so dynamic range was shifted down from ~60db up to ~100db, which is about the top limit of my particular SETs (and about as loud as I ever subject myself to, and then only for very brief periods). Low level detail you wouldn't know was missing was suddenly apparent. During quiet passages, I could hear members of the orchestra shuffling their feet and such, and so real sounding I almost wanted to tell them to "pipe down over there!" The big yet flat IMAX-ish presentation gave way to a sense of the recorded space. Close the eyes and I'm transported into a much larger venue as the walls fall away. Open them back up and the illusion is so compelling that it persists. (I am blessed with a really good room, by the way, which is 98% of the battle.) The sonic image is distinctly expanded, and it grabs your attention. The freq balance seems subjectively brighter, but simultaneously less edgy, and the sheer attack of some instruments is literally striking. Tympany drums kick major butt on the SETs. Despite these pleasantries, the image is kind of whispy and ethereal compared to big SS power.
That was with some Berlioz and Mahler, about the most demanding things I have to throw at the SETs. The SET's do things for vocals that I've never heard any pp tube or ss amp replicate. Next up was some Bach, with both solo and full choir vocals, on an excellent recording. The dynamic contrastyness of the SETs really plays well with vocals, resulting in almost an almost unavoidable emotional connection. It can be quite moving, even when you least expect it.
Sorry I don't have more technical data to support this, but for that matter I don't think technical data would support the use of SET amps, ever. Even calling them 'amplifiers' is being generous, since they don't really do that task very well. But, holy cow, do they sound sweet.
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It's on this Ebay page:
[]It's at the question and answer part at the bottom. Obviously, lacks objectivity when ones trying to sell something. I don't know the guy in any way. Looks like a nice unit but I would never bid on something that will obviously go very high just on the seller's reputation.Well, no wonder. That's Bob Carver, of Carver/Sunfire/etc. Bob's amps always get bid up to ridiculous prices. I admire his passion and commitment to audio, but he also happens to be an extremely adept marketer as well. That particular amp looks pretty crude and utilitarian compared to most of what he does, but I expect that with his smooth talking and name recognition it will ultimately sell for a huge premium.
You can find less expensive amps that would perform just as adequately. You can even find them with a 'lifetime warranty' as Bob is offering (some boutique builders do this, and they also have return policies and such, which I'm not sure Bob is offering). If I had a wad of cash burning a hole in my pocket, I'd probably contact Craig (NOSvalves) and order up some VRD monos before bidding on one of Bob's amps.
Also, I have to agree with artto's post. We went to the symphony last night (at home), and 5 watt SETs just ain't enough for Berlioz at reference levels. If you do go with low power, be sure to keep a big amp around for such events.
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YOU DONT DIP YOUR WIKKI IN CRYO FOR BETTER PERFORMANCE..
Well, beyond a certain age, the wikki will be considerably more rigid if frozen solid than could ever be achieved at normal temps.
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While not for everybody, I find SET amps to be oddly addictive little suckers. Clear as a mountain stream presentation. Incredibly seductive. You really should hear one sometime, particularly if your room is small and you can legitimately get away with low power. SET + Klipsch = [
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can someone provide a wiring diagram for thsi set up?
thanks
It's pretty simple. You just need to provide a pair of line level signals from your pre-amp to your amps. Y-splitters on your pre-outs would work, if the amps you are using have their own gain controls for level matching, or lacking that, both have the same inherent gain.
pre-amp outs --> y-splitter, one leg feeding tube amps, the other feeding corresponding channel on ss amps --> connect amps to corresponding inputs on speakers.
Some brands have multiple pre-outs, e.g. NAD's pre-amps and more expensive integrateds have two sets of pre-outs, one of which has a gain control, a feature specifically provided for passive bi-amping. Using gear with such a feature, simply feed one amp from one set of pre-outs, and the other amp from the other set, making sure to use the trimmable outs with the amp with the highest inherent gain. This is what I have done, using the fixed outs to feed the tubes (they don't reach full output until they see a 2V input), and the variable outs feeding the ss amp (which comes to rated power at a mere 0.8V input), with that pre-out dialed back enough so that levels match. I've done this using a C375 integrated using the built in amp for the lows, and a C162 pre with other amps. I had my crossovers re-worked for bi-amping when I replaced the caps, which was necessary for the old fortes.
After all that futzing around, I find I still prefer driving my Klipsch with the tube amps full range. Go figure.
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Back to tube vendors...I found the same tubes available from online vendors, often for considerably less, from the local guitar amp repair shop. They had and extensive selection and supply of both current production and NOS tubes. The owner was a crotchety old **** who thinks tube amps for home audio is beyond stupid. At least he didn't feel compelled to tack on the audiophile surcharge.
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I like the Marantz mini component Bill suggested, at least for a dorm situation.
Here is another small, all-in-one solution:
http://www.teac.com/consumer_electronics/reference_series/cr-h500nt/
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New Jubs on the Block
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
Just heard Jubs for the first time, at forum member Bill C's restaurant in Silverton. I think they are the same configuration you're getting. They sounded AWESOME, with such an ease of presentation that only fully horn loaded systems do, just supremely effortless and natural. Like 'Scalas on steroids. Have fun with 'em!