Vicoaster
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Posts posted by Vicoaster
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Hey there, I already have a compliment of the original S series of Synergy speakers, my question is about the Surrounds in this post.
I have a couple of pairs of S-2's, for a project I am gathering the pieces for I need another set. Obviously unless I can find a pair of used S-2's (which I am not adverse to), the used prices of the S-2 approach the cost a sale price for the S-20... I was thinking of simply buying a set of S-20's, so my questions are:
- The S-20 looks like the identical speaker except for the colour, the physical size and electrical specifications are the same?
- The material of the components and box, are they the same?
- Timbre or sonic match, is it the same?
- Regarding the tweeters, are they wired in-phase?
S-20 Specs:
Frequency Response: 83Hz-23KHz ± 3dB SENSITIVITY: 91dB @ 2.83V / 1m POWER HANDLING: 100W RMS / 400W Peak NOMINAL IMPEDANCE: 8 Ohms compatible Low Frequency Driver: 5.25" (13.3cm), IMG woofer ENCLOSURE TYPE: Sealed (WDST) INPUTS: Single binding posts HEIGHT: 6.85" (17.4cm) WIDTH: 14.3" (36.3cm) DEPTH: 5.5" (13.9cm) WEIGHT: 7lbs (3.2kg) MOUNTING: Keyhole Bracket FINISH: Black Ash vinyl Built From:2010
S-2 Specs:
Frequency Response: 83Hz - 23kHz +/-3dB SENSITIVITY: 91dB @ 2.83 volts/1 meter POWER HANDLING: 100 w (400 w peak) NOMINAL IMPEDANCE: 8 ohms TWEETER: Two 1" (2.5cm) aluminum dome tweeters HIGH FREQUENCY HORN: 2 x 5" (12.7cm) 90 x 60 Tractrix Horns WOOFER: 5.25" (13.3cm) woofer CROSSOVER FREQUENCY: 2500Hz ENCLOSURE TYPE: Sealed (WDST) DIMENSIONS: 6.85" (17.4cm) x 14.3" (36.3cm) x 5.5" (13.9cm) WEIGHT: 7lbs. (3.2kg) MOUNTING: Keyhole Bracket Built From: 2004 BUILT UNTIL: 2010Thanks!
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The two DTS-10 will be killer!
One miniDSP can handle up to 4 subs differently since it has four separate outputs. I am only using one.
And yes, within REW you make PEQ filters graphically to correct your measured frequency response; the PEQ filter parameters are generated automatically and uploaded to the miniDSP without typing them in. There's a way within REW to let it pick and design the PEQ filters automatically to either flatten the response or match a house curve, but I haven't found how to do that yet. I haven't played with it since that first time, but I might today before movie night.
Peter,
Yes, when Danley put the kits back out for sale I jumped right away, I had tried to buy a couple in Vancouver, but the seller wanted more then 2 new units already built directly from Danley! Then I found a un-completed kit in the US but it was so far away it would have taken a 3-day trip just to pick-it up... So now I have 2 on the way. I still have the drivers (Eminence LAB 12's) that I was going to use in the THT but their future fate is unknown right now.
That is great news about the integration of REW with miniDSP, I need to read more about that now. Wow, 4 outputs, 2 for each input, that more then covers what I want to do, or may want to do in the future!
The only specifications I am researching about the miniDSP is the balanced versus un-balanced versions, (powering a pro-audio Behringer EP4000) and the maximum output voltages that each of the miniDSP's can provide. The pro-audio amp needs 2.0vrms to be able to reach reach the rated output, and the website talks about the input sensitivity but the not the output voltages...
What type of amplifier are you powering the THT with?
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Peter, do you have to order this direct from DSP in Hong Kong, if so how did that go? Was it expensive?
Did you get a single board?, I am still looking into EQ, IIRC these have 2 channels with up to 6 frequencies that can be adjusted per channel right?
Yes, ordered from Hong Kong. Shipping is a standard $35 for North America; expensive for the weight but not outrageous. You can track it to your home within a week or so. I got the finished version and purchased the plugin only when I received the unit. What it can do varies a bit from plugin to plugin, but the 2-way advanced plugin allows you to set a steep high-pass filter on the crossover portion of the software, and up to six parametric EQs settings. There's no 20 Hz limit like on some Behringer units. It's easy to attempt to correct a frequency response curve within REW on a PC, export the designed PEQ filters in a file and load them into the miniDSP plugin software, add the high-pass and upload it all to the miniDSP via USB.
This sounds like a good idea too, the programability of the unit looks impressive, as soon as I get a chance I will have to read more about this unit. I wa wondering if I would need 2 boards to control 2 sub channels?
Did I read your comments about REW correctly, correct a freq. response curve and this will give you the PEQ files for the 6 available adjust points automatically?
BTW, I still haven't had an opportunity to start the THT, I have the speakers but work has been very busy of late! Add to this a wrinkle in the sub department... somehow I managed to get 2 DTS-10's ordered and enroute to my location. [
]Al
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Peter, do you have to order this direct from DSP in Hong Kong, if so how did that go? Was it expensive?
Did you get a single board?, I am still looking into EQ, IIRC these have 2 channels with up to 6 frequencies that can be adjusted per channel right?
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Thanks for the feedback Peter, I is great to know how you feel the project turned out.
Wise words about the low profile version, I have already bought the plans for the regular THT but placement and concealment have me considering the purchase of the LP plans, I could just lay a pair down under the screen the the LP version.
The idea of a tapped horn still intrigues me, wished I had seen the DIY DTS-10 kit offered early last , still expensive as compared to the THT buy much better then the full retail cost. And although I have seen some plans for TH's none seem as well documented as the Tuba which kind leaves me wondering about the end result. It is tough enough to find the time to build a verified/tested design but to go for the unknown I just don't have the luxury of that much free time!
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Besides a pipe organ or a contrabassoon, there are no natural instuments that go below 31 Hz. But synth bass (like Taurus bass pedals by Geddy Lee of Ruch), suharmonic synthesizers and God knows what else can produce bass down to 4 Hz. which is part of a CD specification.
A system that is ruler flat to 30 Hz. is still very powerful.
You know, you state something that we all (at least me) tend to forget, that it is the modern age of music and cinema that had brought ultra low bass, before that 20-30 Hz was considered quite low frequency... now we want it down to 10 Hz or lower!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the OP is going to be using this for HT. The LFE channel on many movie sound tracks has a ton of infrasonics on them. 10 Hz content is common. I've seen waterfall charts (AVS forum I believe) that have scenes from movies with sub 20Hz content. The list is amazingly long. 30 Hz is great for music but a sub that can reproduce virtually anything on a movies LFE track is a whole different beast.
I believe that you are correct, Peter does have this in his HT but uses it for some music as well...
As for the range that at HT sub needs to reach, no argumants there either, and I think you alluded to the fact that this brings a whole other set of challanges to the mix, not only from a physics standpoint but financial as well! [
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Besides a pipe organ or a contrabassoon, there are no natural instuments that go below 31 Hz. But synth bass (like Taurus bass pedals by Geddy Lee of Ruch), suharmonic synthesizers and God knows what else can produce bass down to 4 Hz. which is part of a CD specification.
A system that is ruler flat to 30 Hz. is still very powerful.
You know, you state something that we all (at least me) tend to forget, that it is the modern age of music and cinema that had brought ultra low bass, before that 20-30 Hz was considered quite low frequency... now we want it down to 10 Hz or lower!
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Peter, can you post a link for the post on the AVS forum for a in wall mounted Tuba? Thanks!
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I may need high-pass after all. I just put in The Incredibles when the plan explodes over the ocean. I was a few dB below reference and I think I very briefly hit a peak of 1000W (and the house is still standing; I did feel the shock wave in the room more than I heard it loudly). Of course I am currently running the sub 5 dB hot relative to receiver-setup-noise calibrated sub level.
COOL! I can't wait to have 2 of these in my theatre!
(although I may have to get the plans for the low-profile Tuba, it would be easier to lay them down onder the screen...)
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The driver is in now.
I glued in my access hole flanges last night, and the three last braces minutes ago. Tomorrow I'll be ready to cut a hole in the access panel for my banana plug plate, solder speaker wire into the plate, install the plate and then the access cover... and it will be functional and ready for try-outs! Final finish will be done later this winter.
A bunch of pictures tomorrow... It's standing on it's front now so that the braces can dry in there with gravity holding them in place. Doesn't make for nice pics.
Wow, it looks bigger then I thought, how wide is it again?
Looking forward to the pictures, and the report of how it sounds, I wish I could get started on mine, I doubt it will be until next year now! [:$]
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Looking good Peter, a lot more complex now seeing it from the side view!
You mentioned taking out the screws, would there be a problem just leaving them in? I have built many speakers, usually I just leave them in place after the glue sets...
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I tried to upload plans last night......VERY simple build. For some reason, they woudnlt upload. I will try again.If not, I will try a link to the DIY since there are thousands of posts on tapped horn. It was hard to find this one.
So is this the same one? Looks like it to me. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/143714-lab12-tapped-horn.html
Interesting comment in post #8... only good to 70-80Hz? Wasn't the inductor for 150 Hz rolloff? Besides if this is connected to the LFE channel most are low passed to 120 Hz. Either that or I could use the cossoever in the AVR or an electronic crossover.
See this thread for some great pictures of the Danley: http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/500239/0/#msg_500239
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I understand that the TH is supposed to go lower, it still might be a possiblilty for my project however the plan recently posted in this thread is very basic in it details, I little disconcerting when deciding over the Tuba HT... Also based on this information posted on Bill's Tuba HT site, the Tuba might get to the necessary frequencies anyway?
Your reply made me laugh, not because it was funny but because I am taking it to be a masterful understatement...
Precisely how it was meant. The Tuba is more efficient but the TH goes lower......takes a lot to do 16 Hz. but there is content we never feel otherwise. Transformers Movie (first one) contains tons of 18 Hz. stuff to Klipsch commercial engineers use it to set up theaters, like Malco.
Not impressed yet? Add in the cabin gain of an average room (12dB per octave below 30 Hz) and you can end up with flat response to 10Hz with 110dB sensitivity. Not even the most expensive theatrical subs made can make that claim. Here's what builder 'Tweedpower'has to say about his THT:
Built a Tuba HT, my third Tuba. This is a different animal. I built a 30" wide version. This was the widest size that would fit through my door. The low end output is unreal. It is the greatest for the LF channel in my HT. I have been experimenting with different crossover points and I think that I like crossing it over lower at 60 or 80 hz. The power in the sub 50 hz region is impressive. It lets you know what the sound engineers had in mind. I get great output down to 15 hz and basically flat to 18 hz when using minimal EQ.
The sensitivity advantage of the Tuba HT means bass more solid than you've ever heard before. The folded horn geometry reduces distortion to levels that no direct radiator sub can even approach. Here's what builder MaxMercy measured from his THT:
20Hz: 114dB at 4.5% THD. I did not push any further, as the panes in my windows were moving about 1/16" at the time. I think they would have broken if I went further. Above 20Hz, you can get damned near as much as you want dB-wise, all clean. Basically, from 16 or so Hz on up, you have strong bass, from 20Hz on up, INSANE bass. I designed the system to give me great sound at -10dB from reference (with Dynamic EQ frequency correction to account for equal loudness curves), which it does with flying colors flat down to around 16Hz before dropping off. Useful output down to 12Hz. All at less than 5% THD. In a sweep and distortion test of a $9950 sub, the Genelec HTS6... the Genelec runs over 10% THD at 115dB. This is significant, in that a sub almost 20 times less expensive to build can seriously compare with one of the best subs available.
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As I said earlier since I have the 2 x 12" Eminence LAB speakers I might as well build some TUBA's or tapped horns with them, that way if I decide to dive into the world of IB I can sell a working set of subs!
If you build either of those, you won't need to sell them.
Your reply made me laugh, not because it was funny but because I am taking it to be a masterful understatement... [
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Carl,
The one photographed has a clear acrylic panel right over the woofer by the mouth, but you can do whatever you like there. If you don't put an access panel there you can still get to the woofer though the mouth, but it will be tight. I have not built it yet, so I will decide at that time whether to cut an access panel or not. It's the lowest air pressure point of the horn, so no worries there.
Picture, I don't see it?
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Almost there Peter, even if it has been slow going the Tuba is almost finished...
I wish I had some time to work on mine, so much on the go with the kitchen and starting a new job that I dare not even try...
So, you mentioned finish, have you come up with anything?
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Could you tell me what drivers you used and if you were doing it again would they still be the ones of choice?
I used Ascendantaudio Avalanche drivers, which aren't made anymore. If I were building one today, I'd use the 18" version of THESE . Ficaraudio does all the warranty repairs for Ascendantaudio and builds drivers for them. It's a great company with excellent customer service. I've bought 5 drivers from them so far for other projects and have been very pleased.
Hmmmm, maybe I have been looking at too many comercially built subs but from what I see at the Ficaraudio site these are too badly priced, sure 4 of them adds up but wow what an effect they would have on the HT experience!
So would you wire them as 2 pairs driven by separate sub channels? How much power?
Dang, you have me looking at that back wall of the HT thinking speaker cutouts... yeah, yeah they would fit just fine... room 21x16x8... this could be interesting!
How does Audyssey handle such things?
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No, they're not cheap. Roughly 800 for 4 18" drivers and 350 for an amp. I'd do it angain in a heartbeat though. You get a sub that displaces about 30 litres per stroke. The commercial equivalent (if there even IS one) would be astronomical. The only thing that I can think of that would go lower is a Thigpen rotary sub (fan) that will run you about the cost of a new car.
Could you tell me what drivers you used and if you were doing it again would they still be the ones of choice?
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I'm about to build a tapped horn for my lone LAB woofer 30x60x14.5 inches.. I already have cut pieces for 2 original Danley LAB horns to replace my MWMs in my stacks, but no funds for the 3 extra drivers I need (bought Heresy's and Fortes for other rooms instead) so that will be on hold until 2011.
the tapped horn is from the DIY forum on the Tapped Horn project and uses only one LAB 12 woofer per box.. Field proven to go lower (like 16.5 Hz) than the Tuba in a 15 cu ft. box, but lower efficiency.Mine will be an oak coffee table. Only need 2 sheets of oak plywood.
As much as I would like to get started on either the tapped horn or the TUBA HT, the wife has her(our) kitchen in the project list before the home theater stuff so I am hold a bit as well...
From what you say above the single 12 tapped horn has been built by others, do you have some direct reports of the build and end results? Is the single driver version you are planning to build the one you posted the plan for?
Also you mention that you were going to make a pair of Danley LAB horns, even have to wood cut, are these plans available? I was reading where the driver used in the Danley had significantly different electromagnetic parameters then the Eminence LAB 12... So is the design you have different?
Thanks!
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Hi all! This is great! Kind off a catch-all thread on alternate sub options. I liked the idea of a horn-loaded sub, the THT, to complement my horn-loaded speakers. The SPUD was also the tapped horn option that I investigated and placement wasn't optimal for me. I had seen that LAB12 design but didn't think it went that low. I should have looked into IB since I have a utility room adjacent to my HT room. I figured it might get too loud in the kitchen above that utility room (I assumed that it got louder in the adjacent room, but maybe I'm wrong about that). So, for me, for now, it's a THT. We'll see what the future brings. The IB is still a possibility in the future, but I do have the room for the THT in my 21.2x18.5 room.
I'll say, I am glad that you don't mind the intrusion!
As I said earlier since I have the 2 x 12" Eminence LAB speakers I might as well build some TUBA's or tapped horns with them, that way if I decide to dive into the world of IB I can sell a working set of subs!
The other thing is I will need some time to save for 4 18" subs (seems to be the popular configuration) along with some significant amplifier power! I haven't come across the cost for such beasts but it surely can't be inexpensive!
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CECAA850, I aggree with what you say above, but as I already have the 2 drivers, I might as well make something with them!
Do you have some photo's and specs for your setup?
Every sub that I have ever owned has been a compromise in one fashion or another. I do like trying different ones however. The IB came out of a need for more floor space in my living room. With a Klipsch 7.1 setup and 2 subs, the walls started closing in. Completely ridding myself of subwoofer boxes really opened up our living area. As far as price vs performance goes, it may not be high on the charts. Based solely on performance, it's WAY up the charts. It's also has the highest WAF that you could ask for, if that's what's important to you. I'd love to build the sub you posted in your diagram, just to try it, but I just don't have the room. It would be my 5'th sub build (6'th counting the IB).
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Regarding IB, I suppose I just needed to remember back a few years when I built such speakers... I just jumped to the conclusion that this was some new methodology for sound reproduction! [
]Also years ago I toyed with this idea, speakers in the wall the rear wave isolated from the from but the wife at that time nixed that idea promptly!
Although low extension is very desirable, the cost must be considered as well, interestingly I have a good room for this idea and may investigate it at some point in the future, but for now as Claude mentions, taking everything into account the horn solution has some definite advantages (especially since I have 2 suitable speakers already).
So it will either be a pair of Tuba HT's or tapped Horns as soon as I decide (or are convinced) which would be better! Still worried about the placement of the two choices. If I have to have the Tuba facing into a corner it will have to be behind the main listening area.
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If you guys want to get LOW,I don't understand why you're looking into horns. Just build an IB and be done with it. No big boxes in the listening area and useful output into the single digits. I sit 14' away from mine and have measured 110 dB (corrected) at 10Hz and 120 dB at 20 Hz. Horn subs are clean sounding and very efficient, but they get big fast when you're looking for the bottom octave.
Hmmm, IB, for those less enlightened (me) why not provide just a bit more information then 2 letters?
At the risk of offending you, real assistance or enlightenment would be more detailed then "IB and why not..."
regards,
PS, Peter, sorry if this looks like a hijack of your thread, if CECAA850 responds with some informaton we can take it elsewhere and not discuss it in your thread.
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Yes, a great job on the construction and finishing, well done!
I spent a few free hours going over the TubaHT plans yesterday trying to decide which size to build, overall size is not an issue because the room is a dedicated space and what ever I go with will be incorporated into the final layout. Originally I was going to build a ProSound LAB sub and that beast is 45x45x22.5 !!!
Bills comment on the bottom of the first page is what swayed me "Of course, if you have room for an 18 inch cab or wider and already have the appropriate twelve on hand by all means use it"...
I have 2 Eminence Labs 12 sub so I am leaning towards two 30" wide TubaHT's one for each side of the theatre screen.
See my plans above. I would build 2 of these, since it's only 4 sheets of plywood and very simple build to get your to way below 20 Hz. in a smaller box than the tuba. According to all the audio science, the ideal number of subs is 3 or 4 spread around the room to balance all the room modes, so 2 is better than one.
Thanks for posting the plan and for the feedback.
Hmmm, sounds interesting, they are big though! [
] (says the guy with Klipschorns)I wonder about the corner placement of the TUBA HT versus a pair of these, I was planning on a baffle wall for the front sound stage so I have to be careful about placing any speaker in front that needs to face the wall rather then out to the room (it seem that this may be the requirement of the Tuba HT?).
I would be interested in additional information on the tapped horn, pictures and some reports from those that have built 'this' one.
Thanks!
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Synergy Surround S-2 vs S-20
in General Klipsch Info
Posted
Thanks Matt, I think that you are right, interesting that they made the switch to a new model number along with cosmetic changes...But did not keep the larger S-3 in the line.