DANGERDAN

I presume this PS3 is connected to a digital receiver and the receiver is decoding the material, the dts ma 5.1 is a very high bitstream and controlling this can be a problem sometimes for receivers. The dac on the receiver could be having trouble decoding this codec and loosing connection, when this happens have a look on the receiver and check to see if the HDMI connection is switching on and off at all which is indication of a loss connection. Try changing the audio output from the blu ray to PCM if its already on PCM then change to Bitstream. How long is the HDMI cable also as the length could be causing a problem due to not having enough power to output this high stream of data.

I have already answered your question, look closer!.

Um it was under my impression that the RC 64 II was a timbre match only for the new RF7I and not the RF83's which are the older discontinued design, being that the RC64 ( original design ) was a timbre match for the RF83.

I have had the RF-83 myself for quite a few months now and ever since iv had them i have overgone countless research in everything to do with audio equipment, physics for electricity, audio components and more. From my research i can tell you that your denon will be plenty enough power to drive your speakers to a loud level but there is a dramatic drawback that i found with denon and thats its sound quality output, everyone and everything that i have read ( months of reading ) has stated that the denon paired with klipsch RF-83 is the utmost worst combination as it reproduces a really inaccurate sound output against a lot of other top receiver brands. The denon are also said to have a bad impedance output which could be one of the major factors in a bad sound quality output with damping factor occuring and other factors.

Again i know all this but the physical construction and specifications from a company can be misleading unrelated and differentiate from product to product, I need to know why this impedance change is happening what elements effect this in a negative or positive way and anything related to the adjustment of sound. Clearly i know how the impedance changes and this is from the amount of excursion from the voice coil being positioned in a magnetic field which is also triggered by a electric signal ( frequency ) and that the impedance is in fact a efficiency change in the speaker causing the load to be a constant change of efficiency through the frequency band but none of this helps me to understand why. From the previous statement Impedance change has nothing to do with the driver "wanting" more power, it is just change that happens due to movement of the coil. So if this is true then this does not make sense to me because why would the amp be struggling to output this lower impedance unless it was inderly putting more current through the signal and if the voltage should be the same at the certain output then more current would equal more power.

I wish to understand more about impedance and current to better select a new amp over my current one.

Bump, I got told that Impedance change has nothing to do with the driver "wanting" more power, it is just change that happens due to movement of the coil. What truth in this and can someone further explain what this means. ?

Post from another forum of mine, light bold is seperate person and bold text is me answering. A signal amplifier is separate from the power amp, and if you have a separate setup the signal amp will be in the preamp. I was under the impression that the preamp has a op amp and its main use is for the control of the signal not really to help with voltage, the main power amp is more than enough capable to supply enough voltage from what i can see they reach up to 30v's quite easy. A good amplifier can handle as low as 2 ohms sometimes. Some car amplifiers often rate their systems as 1 ohm capable. A normal receiver that handles 8 ohm speakers can't handle the power load that would occur if the speakers were in a 2 ohm range. It has to do with a limitation on the amplification system. If the power to drive the speaker isnt there, you risk a burn out from power draw that exceeds specifications. I already understand all of this but this doesn't answer my question as to why this impedance change is important, current is not power it carries power and it is a combination of current x volts that creates power. Current to me seems to be needed for low resistance so the more current you have the better you it can handle. Most of this is best guess but i don't think voltage is constant and nor is current because of resistance, as the excursion changes due to the frequency the impedance changes and the impedance is just a efficiency change so with that when more power is needed the efficiency of the speaker changes. Electrons in a high voltage source move in a smaller line but really fast and in a high current source there are more electrons together but move slower, with the right combination they will provide the same power but with different applications they give a different effect. Because Power is based on I*V it is actually pretty accurate to say that more power needs more current. The thing is all of these are all related, one affects another. P=I^2*R=IV What does stay consistent is the voltage that is supplied through the power amp. The power amp boosts the power by supplying an amperage that compensates for the speaker's impedance. This doesn't sound right to me, when you say more power needs more current you are indicating that current needs to be raised for more power and that volts are consistent but they really are not, it depends on what your talking about but if you were talking about speakers it still wouldn't be a solid voltage level. Power plants run 1 million volts and only 1 amp to a transformer this was considered the easier way to transfer power instead of 1 million amps and 1 volt as this would create a lot of heat dissipation, power loss and would require a much bigger cable. This is the difference im looking at "high voltage, high current" if you consider 1 million volts x 1 amp to be high current i think your incorrect, from my testing with a digital multimeter when you scan through the frequency range from 20hz to 20khz the voltage and the amps are constantly changing so im guessing the resistance is causing this change, volume is derived from the power output (watts) so the more watts you have the louder its going to be. Amps can fail in two ways either by overheating from excessive load from a speaker or fails to provide stable power for the signal and starts clipping the signal and potentially harms the speaker coil. But isn't there a max output on amps from the transistor ?? like my amp ( marantz sr4320) from best guess has about 4 amps is 80 watts 20hz to 20khz 0.08 thd and puts out about 25-30 volts max with full signal (testing with multimeter), so thats 20 volts x 4 amps = 80 watts but if the speaker required more current ( impedance drop ) wouldn't the amp transistor max out or does it still try to increase the current?. Summing it up i think my question is when impedance drops is it wanting more power (watts) or is it after just current ( more amps ) because if it was just power it wouldn't make sense to me because why could it not take its required power from 8ohms, with speakers that are 100db @ 1 watt @ 8ohm they don't really need a lot more watts at 4ohms because it would only be 2 watts @ 100db for 4ohm so its a little confusing for me. Im just saying it has to be something else other than just watts.

Thanks il look up the dope from hope. Let me ask another question that might help me, Say we had a 8ohm speaker that dips down to 3-2ohms and say you had a amp that could supply 300watts into 8ohms but no lower ( and for the sake of being safe it had a 8ohm tap ). Now why couldn't the speaker take the power it needs from 8ohm if the impedance dips ( change ) was to require more power why not take all from that level of impedance. Obviously it doesn't so that's why i ask about high current vs high voltage because you can supply the same amount of watts whether its from high voltage and low current or low voltage and high current, the difference seems to be that there's something other than power (watts) that's needed when the impedance dips. Meaning when the impedance dips its not the power its looking for its the current ( more electrons ) now why is it needing these high current electrons ?? How good are valve amps with impedance i heard that they don't like low impedance is this because its a high voltage output ? Lets try one more example power amp specs: 20 volts (seems to be average) 5 amps 100 watts from ( V x I = W ) Now from this can you work out the lowest this amp can supply into a impedance ? also when the speaker is resisting at 8ohms and dips to 4ohms what exactly is it resisting ? i presume its the amps and that's where the extra power comes from ? or does it resist both volts and amps ( i have a digital polimeter which i have been using for studies ).

Im screwed lol, yea i know there's some heavy duty stuff but its mostly just knowledge of amps and whats best for impedance dips etc, i did read a long article that explained that the word flow in the description for electricity was incorrect and that electrons do not flow.

Hows it guys im back again and im hoping this will be the last investigation i need help with, iv spent quite a bit of time now researching about the fundamental physics for electricity to understand how speakers work in regards to its electrical side and further improve my understanding for future improvements and knowledge. I understand almost how electricity works after reading many articles on the scientific descriptions for electricity physics, i just have a few hicups in getting my head around a few things but its not specifically with electricity its with amps and speakers and mostly impedance. I understand that a speaker determines the load of the signal (impedance) so depending on the excursion and the difficulties of the specific frequency depends on how hard it is to drive and what load a speaker will have. I don't know a specific question to help me understand this as i think there are a more than one so i will try my best to ask them. High current amps vs high voltage amps ? What relation does low impedance have with these two types of power supply. In relation to impedance the law states that the lower the resistance the more power is available to flow through, current is measured in amps and amps relate to the rate of flow. What im confused at is the way the electrons are traveling, For eg with the amps measurement that just measures the rate of flow from one point. Il try do some math to explain myself. 10 volts x 10 amps = 100 watts 20 volts x 5 amps = 100 watts Is there a difference in the rate of flow (electron speed) and the amount of electrons (high flow) that we miss out when measuring amps. When impedance is lowered from say 8ohm to 4ohm what fills the gap for this resistance, does the amps increase in the flow or does the voltage or from what my testing shows me that they both increase ? Are high current amps better for low impedance dips or can high voltage push supply whats needed for these dips ?. If there's any articles you could provide me to help me with this impedance issue i would be greatful and im sorry if i don't make sense, again thanks.

What if i cant find one ?, is it going to be a big problem or is it really not that much different its just better to have the original design.

Howsit family, Just a update for those of you who were helping me with my RF83 decision a couple months ago, you will remember that i was having bass problems with them but after further research and lots of dedication i managed to find the culprit. The inbuilt preamp in my integrated marantz amp was a shocker but so was the budget sony amp, I bipassed the preamp on the integrated and used my xonar D2x as the preamp and i got to tell you i am a solid believer in preamps and how much of a impact it has on sound quality. There is a lot more excursion to the point i was thinking my god these babys are going to tip themselves over hahaha, the rubber basket looks different as if all the work its being put through has loosened it but i can say i have the bass i was looking for now, sound quality is much better but i am definitly looking for a better amp/preamp (looking at a rotel RB1080). Thanks for that guys and i will be getting some pics on in the next couple of months for you, anyway on to my question i am looking at a center speaker to go with my system but i am unsure on the tembre matching with these speakers. I have heard that you have to be carefull when matching things like this and so i thought id ask what you guys thought. Thanks Thanks again

Yea the headroom theory i think is to do with the frequency shift because the nominated ratings on speakers are incorrect to a proportion (spl sensitivity and even frequency), most power out of a speaker system is drawn from the largest speaker or speaker with the biggest excursion. More power is needed in the lower frequency specturum (120hz and below) because more physical movement is required to reproduce the frequencys and more power is required by the voice coil, you could have a decent receiver amp that supplys enough watts to create a decent sound level but the difference is the quality in sound and how much QAULITY power is provided. High current amps with headroom power will provide the best type of sound due to the possibility of power being provided when hitting those lower frequencys, bigger excursion moments and heavier impedance drops. This is just my opinion feel free to object and return arguments.

As i have seen the RF-7 DeanG mod was to correct the imbalance between the woofers and the tweeter to soften or reduce potential harshness, the RF83's were the replacement design with a correctly built crossover so they would not require the Dean mod. The RF-7 II is a restructured design being very similar to the original only having improved material and the improved crossover, so to my opinion they will have the very same qualitys nearly with perhaps the RF II's having the slight edge on looks and quality of parts but it would come down to taste and what you like. If you done a little search you could have discovered this yourself.

Just a little update to those that helpd me , I biampped one speaker with one amp ( mono ) just to see what kind of effects it would have and i did notice a improvement. It had a noticeable improvement in the bass and a more fuller sound so im more excited about buying a new amp and i have been looking in the rotel (rotel 1582) after reading vigorously through the klipsch forums, seems to be the best matching amp for klipsch Just want to know with pre amps is there a good dedicated pre amp to go with the power amp or will i do just fine buying a avr receiver for all my process/connector sources. Thanks .

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Good to see you have that fixed, i have the same problem with my speakers as well when turning up the volume the bass is there but the HF seems to drown out the bass at low volumes. I am certain a good class A amp will fix my problem too

Wow thats quite impressive how come klipsch employ so few ?, what about statistics on perhaps sales and or worldwide knowledge ?.

well said stephen thank you.

Thanks I wasn't excluding the frequency, i was just saying it isnt just the frequency i mean if you compare it running one woofer compared to all three, those three running at the same time would require more power than it just running just the one.

I am learning more and more through the days, but i believe i have most of it pat down. A lot of people and i mean a lot seem to believe that watts are watts and if a speaker can be powered to a acceptable volume level without distortion its enough and would not require a amp upgrade. But to me of course this does not make sense to me after taking a closer look into the physics of how power works and came to a conclusion that those people were biased pricks who can only afford cheap equipment (no offense xD). So with the RF83/7 yes they are very efficient speakers but this is mostly only because of the horn loaded tweeters, these things use only about 15 watts if that of any kind of power. As we all should know though most of the required power to drive a speaker is down below 200hz range and this is where a lot of the good bass sounds come from, bass guitar, drums, kick drum. The RF83/7 are known to have a impedance drop of 2.8ohm at around the 200hz and under mark, but this isn't just because of the frequency its because it has to drive three 8" or two 10" at the same time and as you can imagine can be quite difficult because of how much air it has to push and how fast. You can supply these speakers with low watts and get really loud levels but you will not get the full sound quality that the speakers can produce unless you supply high current and clean power so it can handle the impedance drops and be able to get a more powerful control over the woofers to produce better low frequency's Said it like i had experienced it, but i am convinced by my research that my theory is correct and i will see in time when i get a beast PSU and prove myself right , but i have read countless people upgrading their amps and the speaker quality would improve across the bass frequency always. I know i promised pictures but my room is real crappy and would get such a hard time because of it lol.

Cool thanks guys

Preamps are the soul for transfering analog or digital data to the amplifiers and are also capable of configuring the gain of frequency, now without touching the gain levels does the preamps sound different from eachother (connected from a digital source). If so what kind of change is this, is it as big a change as between different amps ?, how do seperate preamps compare to standard receivers used as preamps. Could you connect the RCA L/R cables directly into a power amp ? if not how come.