[Audyssey XT Settings]

Throw this question in to the mix.....for those that have the option to have bass come from mains+sub, or just sub what do you choose?

I would choose just the sub but you should try both and see
what you like. It’s all about your taste your room and your gear. One thing I will say don’t just do a quick a/b
test. Try it one way for a week then another. Give whatever you try a chance.

[Audyssey XT Settings]

Dolby recommends that all material below 80 Hz be sent to the LFE. I have the white paper on it. My brother is a sound engineer and "in the industry.". He said that less than 1% of content below 60 Hz makes it to anything other than the sub. Take that for what you think it's worth.

no offense but you guys are ruining the allution of full range home theatre.

Lol 80-20,000 is full range to me. (as long as there is a

sub in the room[])

[The conversion from 5.1 to 7.1 begins.]

Soon you will want 9.1 Wides

, and then 11.2 - why not?

Well I guess I should have said 5.3 to 7.3

[Audyssey XT Settings]

Full range capability doesn’t mean anything other than it has the ability to process 20-20k.

It means any given DVD or Blu Ray can send 20Hz material to your main, center, or surround speakers which will not be reproduced properly on your system, unless you set your speakers to small, or they are actually capable of competently reproducing the material (which even your RF-7s are not). Do you have any evidence beyond the word of an SVS tech that no DVD/Blu Ray disc ever made (or that ever will be made) will not send content below 50Hz to your mains/center/surround speakers?

But that doesn’t mean you’re hearing 20 Hz because most music doesn’t go any lower than 30hz.

That entirely depends on the music, doesn't it???? Organ music can definitely go below 30 or even 20Hz.

Ever made? lol

Ok now your just nitpicking I said most music to make a
point I’m very aware there is music that can hit 20 Hz wow really? If you don’t believe me that’s fine audio engineers
mix movies to Dolby standard or very very close to it. They mix to the standards
that will be used in the theaters and the disks which in this case is Dolby and
DTS (80hz) They don’t sit there and think well people have bass management so
who cares what Dolby and dts say let’s let them figure it out. If you want to
make your case by saying that .05% of blu rays have content below 50 Hz to all channels
by all means but that’s just nitpicking if you ask me.

There is no right or wrong here so I’m not sure why your
trying to discredit me by mixing my words to say what I clearly never said.

Also
how is your definition any different than mine of full range?

[The conversion from 5.1 to 7.1 begins.]

lmao [6]

[Audyssey XT Settings]

Those same reasons would be a good “reference for this assumption” every point you make for your argument is another reason they would mix it that way. Right?

No. My guess is as StephenM pointed out, some do some don't, and when it comes to older material definitely "not." Remember the industry assumes that there will be Bass Managment at the users end just as there is in theaters...Again, if I am right and you enjoy your setup who cares what I think. I really don't think you are missing/gaining much either way...Fwiw, when I had my older Denon AVR-4802R I ran my RF-7s as large but with the addition of Audyssey on the AVR-4806 model I have been able to fine tune my Home Theater even further by running my mains as Small.

It’s all good I like hearing people’s opinions on this stuff

its very interesting and I seem to learn something new every day on these forums.

It sounds really good both ways and really at this point its tuff to do it

wrong just different.

[Audyssey XT Settings]

Like I said I do it because I like how my subs sound better

with the speakers set to large. The rest of the speaker’s imo sound the same

large or small because there really isn’t any content anyways. Some speakers

need bass management so there is differently a purpose for it. But if your

speakers can handle 50 Hz with ease it doesn’t matter too much like svs and

corn just said.

[Audyssey XT Settings]

Dolby recommends that all material below 80 Hz be sent to the LFE. I have the white paper on it. My brother is a sound engineer and "in the industry.". He said that less than 1% of content below 60 Hz makes it to anything other than the sub. Take that for what you think it's worth.

Yes that’s very close to what svs said and what I found.

[Audyssey XT Settings]

The content material in movies just doesn’t have super low content to those channels. So just because it can doesn’t mean it automatically will. I will say it again sound engineers have no reason to put that type of content into those channels so they don’t...

Where is a reference for this assumption? EDIT: I also cross my RF-7s at 60 Hz because anything lower than that my RSW subs can handle better.

I hadn’t really thought about it tell a conversation with

SVS sparked my interest and I did some research on audio mixing for movies and confirmed

what he said. The normal cut off for a speaker/channel is 80 Hz because that’s how

movie theaters are set up. They send all the really low stuff to the lfe. (Why wouldn’t

they?) All thx speakers are designed to go down to 80 Hz and up. Look at

the stats for the klipsch thx speakers they are rated at 80 Hz and up. I’m not

trying to convince anyone that one way is right. Just replying to your post

when you asked how I came up with setting speakers to large. And SVS wasn’t telling

me to set my speakers to large he just explained why it’s not as big of a deal

as it seems to be made into in audio circles. You can crossover your speakers but

you’re just not sending much of anything that low to the sub because there isn’t

anything much to send below around 50 Hz. The reason I say 50 Hz and not 80 is

because there is always a slope (12db or 24db) so at the 50 Hz point there

really isn’t too much to send to the lfe. crossover your 7s at 60hz so you’re

at the most sending about 50 hz-60hz to

your sub. Same goes for your other speakers. So my way isn’t better it’s basically

the same with just a little less mid bass to my subs. If you like it great I personally

like how my subs sound without the extra bump in that range. For me it’s all

about how it makes the subs sound and nothing to do with my speakers being full

range or not.

http://www.klipsch.com/kl-525-thx-bookshelf-speaker#second

As far as “reference for this assumption” I will look for

some proof if you need it. But ask yourself this. For the very same reasons you

and 98% (me included) of people would argue to send all the real low bass content

to the sub. Those same reasons would be a good “reference for this assumption”

every point you make for your argument is another reason they would mix it that

way. Right?

[Audyssey XT Settings]

On your 2^nd part yes if the sub was turned off

the fronts would get a full load. That’s one example why it’s important for the

channels to be full range 20-20k. But when the sub is set to yes the fronts don’t

get lfe info its separate.

I have read in some forums people saying large means they do

but that is absolutely wrong.

[Audyssey XT Settings]

Movie content doesn’t have super low frequency content to any of the speakers anyways so by setting your speakers to small (at say80hz) your only really redirecting frequencies in the 50hz-80hz range anyways.

FYI, Dolby does spec that each discrete channel is full range: http://www.ti.com/lit/an/spra724/spra724.pdf

Five full bandwidth channels with frequency range of 20 Hz to 20 kHz. A sixth channel, the Low Frequency Effects Channel, reproduces 3 to 120 Hz. This channel, with limited frequency response, is referred to as the “.1” channel.

But after having a long conversation with a SVS tech guy he explained that sound engineers who make movies don’t put low content into these speakers

Some do, some don't. For the front channels though, I would practically count on the channels being utilized full range, reason being that if the analog outputs are utilized on a DVD player, the only bass that will be left is that on the front channels (LFE is thrown away).

Full range capability doesn’t mean anything other than it
has the ability to process 20-20k. The content material in movies just doesn’t
have super low content to those channels. So just because it can doesn’t
mean it automatically will. I will say it again sound engineers have no reason
to put that type of content into those channels so they don’t. When you listen to music its full range right?
But that doesn’t mean you’re hearing 20 Hz because most music doesn’t go any
lower than 30hz.It’s the same thing with movies full range just means that it
will get the full content of that channel which just happens to be in the
50-20,000 range. So again it comes
down to what is really being crossed over. In theory yes if movies had low
content (like lower than 30 Hz) going to those channels then it would be very useful.
But that’s just not the case.

[Audyssey XT Settings]

Plus it comes down to what sounds best. If it sounded better

to run them as small I would. If you’re set up sounds better setting it to

small then you should keep them small. We should never do something just because

other people like it that way. I have tried it a lot of ways and this is how it

sounds best so far. I think we get hung up on doing things because that’s what might

technically be the best way. I wasn’t recommending it just saying it’s how I set

up mine.

[Lets see YOUR Home Theater:]

Wow my HT is a happy meal []

[Lets see YOUR Home Theater:]

Westcott...... DO NOTE, that I mentioned 'that space' ..... It

is also the 7.1 'spec' position for the speakers. SURROUNDS to the

side (like YOURS) and BACK surrounds to the rear ! My setup is

exactly the same outside of speaker heights such as yours...

Now,

your setup is nice, but again, you are dealing with a LIVINGROOM theater

and NOT a dedicated room such as Mr. Reverence. So you have

conversational chairs in the foreground, and I don't know how you can

see your electronics if you do have IR or a wireless remote system going

there, the room is also SO spacious and outside of the drapes to ONE

side of the room, it looks like you could run all your surrounds in MONO

and still get a decent, natural delay / reverb...

If I were to be critical, those issues would appear 'quirky' to me. Happy Meal Syndrome ?!?

..........end of commentary

lol

[Audyssey XT Settings]

1) If your system (speakers, amps, and processor) is capable of reproducing the full range of sound (and I'm not saying that Reference Head's system is), does it matter if your speakers are set to large or small? That is to say that if you can recreate 20 Hz to 20 KHz for all 5/7 speakers without loss in current/impedence/watts/THD/etc., is there anything you gain by setting your system to small?

2) Doesn't most source material contain a discrete LFE channel in order to limit low frequency strain on your system, and if so, if you had great 5 channel speakers and a weak sub, might you over-strain your sub by sending additional low frequency signals to the hypothetical "weak link?"

I'm looking for clarification on my line of thinking here in case I've missed something.

1) In a perfect world no, but what speakers do you suggest reproduce the full range of sound effectively and what will you be driving them with? In the real world the more prudent question to ask is at what frequency is your sub better to hit those notes and blend with your other speakers and have a seamless sound environment while wasting the least amount of energy.

2) Yes, Who in their right mind would have a great sound system and then skimp on the sub? If they did, they may have well not purchased the sub in your above scenario and direct the LFE material to their mains.

EDIT NOTE: No matter what I drive my RF-7s with my dual RSW subs are going to hit anything below 60 Hz with more thump because they each have a 650 watt continuous/2400 watts peak Bash amp and that takes alot of strain off of my AVR and allows my Home Theater blends seamlessly.

I set everything too large to reduce the amount of mid bass

content to my subs. Movie content doesn’t have super low frequency content to any of the speakers

anyways so by setting your speakers to small (at say80hz) your only really

redirecting frequencies in the 50hz-80hz range . To me adding all that

extra mid bass to your sub makes it sound boomy. I see it on my screen with the

sms-1 eq it runs its tone out of all the speakers not just the subs so I can

see what is really happing. I totally understand all the logic of it and there

are arguments to support both sides. But if you crossover your fronts at say

40hz you’re not changing anything because there is no content below that on the

movie to the fronts anyways so what are you crossing over? If you crossover

your surrounds at 50 Hz you’re not changing anything because movies don’t have

content to the rears below 50 Hz. I run only lfe content to the subs and imo that’s

when they sound there best. All my speakers can handle 50 Hz and up pretty

easily.

I have spent many many hours reading both sides and have

kept an open mind to both ways. I ran my stuff set too small for a long time. But

after having a long conversation with a SVS tech guy he explained that sound engineers

who make movies don’t put low content into these speakers so the change is

small and in fact if you crossover to high at say 80hz you can end up with too much

mid bass going to your sub. Make sense?

[RF-7II Owners Thread]

After reading through, HT Lab results for Denon AVR 4810, I tried to search for 2808ci since I was curious that why 28008ci is able to keep up with my 5.0 bi-amped setup.

heavy sigh.....If you are running 4 RF-7s and RC-64 off of a Denon AVR-2808 (even bi-amped your RF-7s dip down to 2.8 Ohms in certain frequencies) you are not providing any of them with the current they need to preform efficiently especially at higher volumes. The AVR-28XX series is not rated to drive speakers with lower impedance whereas the AVR-4810 is...The Denon AVR-38XX series was a workhorse in the Denon line because it could also drive speakers with 4 Ohm impedance loads, but not at higher SPL..

Btw, you are driveing $7,000 worth of speakers with a $500 AVR's power supply and No Sub. If that could be done how great of Klipsch advertisment would that be?

Regardless, if you enjoy your very nice home theater, who cares what I think.

For today's price you might be in ball park regarding 2808ci (obviously I paid much more than $500 at the time of purchae as a new, but much less than 3808ci for sure...).

Few months ago, we did audition Marantz pre-pro hooked up to RF-7 II at Klipsch dealer who has quite nice - treated room that housed both P-37F and RF-7 II at the time and overall performance seemed comparable but wasn't great. And hence, an incremental benefit to the high cost seemed pretty low to us. But, hey, I don't claim to be an audiophile and nor do I have ears to hear louder than -30dB volume settings on 2808ci for longer duration on our setup.

On the subject of subwoofer, RF-7 II delivers adequate bass for our needs. We watched movie with one of our friends and they were quite impressed as well and concurred that for the size of the room we don't need a sub-woofer to add more bass. Obviously, if we add a subwoofer then it will free up RF-7 II from that duty as well less load to 2808ci driving those low end frequencies. And thus for us the upgrade path would be a sub-woofer and then the amplfier or might be both together - .

Sub would be my first upgrade

[Lets see YOUR Home Theater:]

"Happy Meal Syndrome"

Lol can someone please tell me what this means?

[Lets see YOUR Home Theater:]

Reference Head, that is a VERY nice setup. Everything is in just the right place and the best you would want and arrange in that space for 7.1 !

...........Gary

I disagree. The speaker placement and seating position are all wrong. I usually would not comment but to suggest this is optimal would be a disservice to the rest of the forum members. I call this the "Happy Meal Syndrome". Quantity over quality.

Thanks everyone for the kind words! I’m not sure if the above post is sarcastic lol but I’m all ears on any advice.

Perhaps placing the surrounds and HT screen eight foot off the ground along with two chairs in front of your mains would be a more ideal lay-out?

Here's a link to wescott's room I pulled out of his profile:

http://community.webshots.com/user/jbwestcott

By the way jbw, that room is absolutely stunning!

Other than his chairs in front of his speakers and the side

surrounds a few feet higher than mine it’s very close to the same lay out isn’t?

[^o)]

[Lets see YOUR Home Theater:]

Reference Head, that is a VERY nice setup. Everything is in just the right place and the best you would want and arrange in that space for 7.1 !

...........Gary

I disagree. The speaker placement and seating position are all wrong. I usually would not comment but to suggest this is optimal would be a disservice to the rest of the forum members. I call this the "Happy Meal Syndrome". Quantity over quality.

Thanks everyone for the kind words! I’m not sure if the

above post is sarcastic lol but I’m all ears on any advice. [] []

[Lets see YOUR Home Theater:]

how high is your ceiling refhead? ever think of hanging them from up above? I love the looks of the cherry.... I wish they sold rb51ii's in cherry.

8ft and I did look at that as an option. Was probably the

biggest reason I never did the rears because I couldn’t make up my mind how I wanted

it. I hate wires and the whole basement is finished so coming up and down would

have been tuff without running wire across at least some part of the celling. I’m

glad I did it this way because having them at a different height level than the

rs-62ii fills that whole area behind me really good. I really like how 5.1

sounds with all four back and side speakers running the surround. Compared to

just the side surrounds. And of course 7.1 is really cool to. I turn my avr to the auto source function

A.F.D (guess it looks for the highest possible source) not sure if it’s running

pro2x or what but they all run all the time when watching TV or blu rays. Unless

it’s just a 2 channel source.

Yes the cherry looks very nice. I was actually surprised how

nice. I love black speakers but these were the ones on sale so I took a chance

that they would look good. []

[Lets see YOUR Home Theater:]

[]

[Lets see YOUR Home Theater:]

New speakers new pic (rb-61ii are new)

[Audyssey XT Settings]

Large

Large

Large

Large

Is how mine are set []

[RF-7II Owners Thread]

I don't wish to beat a dead horse and this will be my final post on the subject....Your response that an external amp could help the OP was correct but stating " your only getting about 30 watts to your speakers" (in multichannel mode) is not factually correct...it's more than likely twice that if not closer to the Denon specs on most material with the RF-7s being driven...What makes them start to sound bad at higher volumes isn't the watts but the inability of the power supplies to provided enough current to cover the impedance dips of the RF-7s.

Exactly!!! You have 125 watts per channel in stereo, but with 7 channels driven, your only getting about 30 watts to your speakers...

Just as 125 watts could be an overstatement, could 30 watts per channel with all channels driven also be an understatement? Do you have a Benchmark results for the Denon AVR-3312?

EDIT: Fwiw, my response to you was to clear up the confusion between Watts per Channel and Impedance, with the latter being why most people have problems driving RF-7s in multichannel configurations with lower-end AVRs..The reason I brought up my 140 wpc AVR is because it CAN cover the dips in my less than 2,000 cu ft HT.

The rf-7 aside driving any 7 descent size speakers is almost

always going to be a tuff task for probably 90% of avrs out there to reference

levels. With that said I don’t see a problem saying that most avrs are only

driving a small amount of watts when trying to explain why they run out of gas.

YES there’s more to it than just watts but it’s probably the easiest way to explain

it so anyone would understand it. I think corn did link a bench test for that avr

showing with 7channels its only 30 watts at 0.1% dist. (36watts at1%)

[RF-7II Owners Thread]

30 was an estimate based on other 100-140 watt receiver bench tests and not specific to Denon. It could very well be double that. Either way, the point remains the same.

My point was that the WPC isn't why his AVR can't drive RF-7s efficiently and that my 140 wpc Denon can. Fwiw, it's not about WPS but current available to cover the RF-7 impedance dips.

EDIT: BTW, Here is a link to the Denon AVR 4806 Benchmark Results: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_4/denon-avr-4806-receiver-12-2005-part-5.html

My guess that bench test is done at 1 kHz and not the full

20-20,000 there are a lot of different ways to bench test. Not saying it isn’t but

he’s not very clear on how he does it on the pages I read.