2Bmusic

I guess the reason I asked the question is due to the size of the room. If I would put khorns in there they would be about 10~11 feet appart center to center and about 14 ~ 15 foot back at sweet spot. DO YALL think that room is to small for Khorns? I am looking for full accurate sound, but not loud. After reading about the Decware Monoliths and the fact there is not cross-over "per-say", they seem to make sense. Good 2way sound is made by a number of MFG. decware speaker info http://www.decware.com/newsite/DM947.html I like that they are efficient Take up little space The Horn-loaded speaker should not sound as distorted as so many speaker like this do. I have had Lascalas, not my cup of tea. I have listened to many of the name brands all the way up to $100,000. None sound as good as Khorns. ALSO NONE had a folded horn and minimal cross over like the Monolyths

The Pilgrimage in Hope presents an excellent opportunity to "listen your ears off". We will be spending time in the listening room at the plant doing comparisons. There will also be a couple of systems at Rodney's. Will there be Khorns there that have the Volti Audio Upgrades? Or other upgrades for that matter? Do you think Khorns are to big for a room where the khorns will be 10 ~11 feet center to center and 14 ~15 feet back to seating area? I would love to come to the fest. I do not know If I can get off that weekend, but will try. Can I just show up? Or does one have to register ahead of time? Will it be difficult to find lodging with in 50 miles?

Does anyone own or listen to other speakers than Khorns? I have not found any that sound better than my KHorns, but then I have only listened to a very few. BW 802, Sonos, Martin logan Electrostatic. and some $50,000 at an audio shop in New Orleans. I was thinking about getting a second pair of speakers for another room. I am very interested in the Decware Monolith's. Since I know every one here has golden ears, or approaching that level, maybe some one could share their experience.

Perhaps it is useful to your pursuit to list some factors that make the loudspeaker sound either better or worse. I find that having a "mental model" of these is really useful in trying to improve the sound. Here are some factors that are documented elsewhere: 1) Flat on-axis frequency response ...what most people tacitly assume is the key performance measure for loudspeakers but in fact is something that can be largely corrected via use of DSP--digital signal processors--like is the heart of digital loudspeaker processors/crossovers. Having flat on-axis frequency response (FR) can be good or not so good, depending on how it is achieved by the loudspeaker. Getting your Khorns to have flat on-axis FR (especially in the upper bass region from 100-300 Hz) using EQ is something that will improve its sound realism rather dramatically. Paying particular attention to EQing the bass FR flat (...and most Khorn owners fail to do this...) will yield much more realistic performance. 2) Controlled horizontal and vertical sound coverage vs. frequency ...which is one of two real advantages of horn loading. This is especially important in the midrange frequencies from about 100-5000 Hz). One of the weaknesses in the Khorn design is its use of a "collapsing polar" midrange horn - the K-400 series exponential horn. This design achieves more or less flat FR by allowing the coverage angle of the midrange horn to collapse down to a smaller and smaller angle as frequency rises, due entirely to the limited height of the horn's mouth. The solution is to use a midrange horn with a larger vertical dimension than the K-400 horn (or K-401, which is made out of a polymer material but is otherwise identical). I recommend a horn that has true controlled coverage vs. frequency but which requires EQ to boost high frequencies and to attenuate lower frequencies. The stock K-400 horn will begin to lose its polar control below about 1700 Hz, which puts an excess amount of midrange SPL into your room's floor and ceiling from about 400 Hz up to 1700 Hz. This excess energy, if not absorbed by carpet/acoustic absorption panels, or delayed in it reflection via a high ceiling, makes the loudspeaker sound tonally unbalanced and is the major reason why most Khorn owners learn to add absorption to the floor and ceiling in their room. Pianos and female voices typically sound distorted or "larger than life" due in part to the loss of vertical coverage by of the midrange horn. The solution is to use a horn that doesn't do this, such as a Klipsch K-402 horn, which controls its polar coverage angles all the way down to the the crossover frequency with the folded bass bin (400 Hz...and even lower to 175 Hz if the attached compression driver could go that low). A good compromise in terms of polar coverage is the K-510 horn, which controls its polars down to about 600 Hz before losing its pattern control. Using a good full-range compression driver with parametric equalization (digital crossover or EQ) will allow you to avoid using a separate tweeter (plus another crossover) that will improve the smoothness and realism of sound. This is probably the most important single upgrade that you can make. I don't recommend using third-party midrange horns that do not have controlled coverage--both horizontally and vertically. If you cannot get good data from the manufacturer on the horn's coverage angles vs. frequency of any third party horn, I'd recommend not investing in them. If you are using a midrange horn with non-straight sides (i.e., exponential, full tractrix, etc.) that horn will not have controlled coverage up to higher frequencies in both axes. Plots of coverage vs. frequency that show a significant narrowing of polar coverage as the frequency rises are not very good horns for this purpose. These horns exhibit the characteristic "honk" sound. 3) Time misalignment of drivers ...that are typically exaggerated with fully horn loaded loudspeakers using passive crossovers. The only effective ways to correct time misalignment of tweeter and midrange is to either add delay to the tweeter channel using a digital crossover, or to remove the tweeter from its top-hat cabinet, and place on top of the top hat, centered about even with the midrange compression driver position at the back of the top hat cabinet. Once the proper location of the tweeter is found, the sound stage image should dramatically widen and become much more realistic. The only effective way to time-align the bass bin to the midrange is by using a digital crossover, inserting delay on the midrange channel. Avoidance of using a tweeter altogether by using a full-range 2" compression driver of high quality (i.e., a two-way loudspeaker like that used in the Jubilee) is a superior way of achieving no disturbances in the loudspeaker's HF coverage, which are extremely audible at high midrange-tweeter frequencies. Also, getting the tweeter and midrange co-axially located will eliminate "X-Y-Z" offset issues of the horns/drivers which lead to a partial fragmentation of the sound stage--due to off-axis nulls that are formed by having two emitters separated by more than 1/4 wavelength at the crossover frequency. 4) Sealed back bass bin ...which is an advantage with a Khorn and is very easy to do with a Khorn back, in order to reduce the loss of mid-bass and midrange FR notches use to a poor seal with the room's corner. The single remaining issue with the Khorn's performance, assuming all the above improvements are implemented, is the mid-bass performance issue due to the folded bass horn design. The frequencies of interest are 100-500 Hz - which are really midrange frequencies. Getting the Khorns' backs sealed up tightly to control loss of midrange/midbass frequencies on-axis is a key upgrade. Having a straight mid-bass horn is even better, but that upgrade will take you away from the Khorn design, typically. Chris WOW CHRIS..... thats a great deal to comprehend. I need to know how to put it in to action.

in case any one is interested RX A1030 specs and more. I had no idea it was this good. Not a F7 or 30.8 or $25,000 tube amp, but it seems to get the job done to the 95% level. And to think I paid $400.00 for it. Not to shabby... http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/aventage/rx-a1030_black_u/

Hey Folks, I got to talk to Greg at Volti. What an amazing wealth of knowledge when it comes to our beloved Khorns. I will be buying his full upgrade in a few months. That way unknowns as well as knowns that cause a perturbation in the sound will be ameliorated as best as possible. Once that is done I will resume testing amps. The ones on my list will be: First Watt F7 Pass 30.8 Decware ZMA and amp and preamp from QS if he will allow. also If Justin Weber will allow for demo, I would pay for shipping both ways, if I do not buy, and a $50.00 handling fee to try his Casablanca's maybe others.... stay tuned!

2B, he's noting that your Emo Stealth DAC/pre may lack sufficient output voltage to drive QS Monos to full power, and if that's so, you never heard what they're fully capable of. Note the lack of disclosure of the output voltage on the Stealth DAC (bizarre oversight for a product marketed as a pre-amp). The Stealth was most likely designed to feed a high gain amp like Emo makes (they typically require <1v for full output). The fellow from QS who "helped" you should have let you know that the QS Horn Monos require that. That he didn't verify compatibility with your existing kit makes me think he prioritizes a sale over your satisfaction. (Such is life in consumerville, and why I prefer DIY over commercial offerings.) You've already returned the QS Monos, correct? Yes they will arrive at QS today. I would have like to have kept them longer. But I only had a short time to demo and then return. I think demo's should be 30 days. I lost five days ( demo time) because I had to go out of town for a week. It was painful to know they were waiting for me, but I was 400 miles from the people I know. As to the references about preamp out put voltages etc. I found this. http://emotiva.com/resources/media/DC1_AP_Report.pdf I think it makes enough out put to drive any amp sufficiently to get to 1 or 2 watts. I usually listen at SPL of max of 90 but lower 80's for the most part. I sit 12 feet from speakers ....so anyway. I would like to know if a tube preamp would do better. I guess the only way to know is to try one.

FJD, I am not sure I understand. Maybe we could talk on the phone?

I would say yes, there is distortion but only on certain passages.

one can not know what one does not know. To that end I feel that upgrades are a good idea. I posted this because I have talked to several people that say leave the Khorns alone. For me, I am wanting the million dollar sound for as cheap as possible ( relatively speaking of course). It seems from posts here and google searches that upgrades improve sound. TODAY I just found out about Volti. So now the decision is harder. ONE PATH> Volti other path> ALK & Fastlane..... how can one know. Serious money ether way, and something to not be repeated!

Done, they are closed in

I infer that Oldtimer is implying that your thread title implies a preference for solid state. Actually NO Preference here. Tubes or SS, which ever way results in sound as close to original or even colored in such a way that makes listening for long periods of time unforgettable! After asking about speaker mods, I think the VOLTI upgrade kit is where the money should be spent first. Specially in the light that I have tried the amps I have mentioned here!

Mancave man, & others HOW DOES one decide on which path to take. THE VOLTI AUDIO or the FASTLANE / ALK path? I know they are both good. Can any one here give me some insight please?

I listened to the Jubilee's at Kevin's house. They sound amazing. THEY WILL NOT FIT IN MY rent house sad to say. Other wise I would do that!

VERY NICE AS WELL. I guess you are still liking the set up? MANCAVE MAN...I WOULD APPRECIATE YOU IDEAS ON AMPS ALSO! Currently by default and accident I am using a Yamaha RX A1030. Compared to the others below it is certainly acceptable. I am trying to figure out what amp to go with. Thus far I have tried: 1. BIG BEN 6watt SET, not enough power. Shy by about 15 watts for good bass. 2. Emotiva's 300 watt XP gen 2 series. Sounded good, great bass, but not worth spending the money (compared to the free yamaha 1030.) 3. First Watt F6. It sounded a tiny bit better than the above, but again for the money not what I am looking for. 4. Quicksilver Horn Monos. These were again every bit as good as others above. On some music they bested all the above. But after reading about Steve Decware ZMA, I think that is a better way to go for many reasons. I will have to save up for a while to buy that however. 5. I really want to try the first watt F7. Reviews show that it picks up where the previous F series left off. 6. OR the Pass Labs 30.8. Something tells me this is the best way other than Pass Labs mono blocks. AND i am not going to spend that kind of money. One has to draw the line some where! Thanks again for everyones ideas.... please keep them coming !!! Sincerely, Dave

WOW very VERY NICE thank you so much. I did not know about this! CAN ANYONE talk to how this compares with ALK and Fast lane stuff?

I forgot to mention, my khorns have the back closed in. I can not find any serial numbers. I was told these were upgraded with new squawker driver and cross overs around the year 2000. No way to know how accurate that statement is. But the only speakers that came from the factory that were closed in the back were anniversary ones. Wasn't that in 2005? I know they are older than that. As for upgrades I am asking about squawker's and crossovers specifically. ALK for cross overs and Fast lane for eliptrix midrange ( squawker ) . These add up to close to $3,000. I did not pay that much for the speakers.... for crying out loud! My thoughts are: ( MOST) all MFG's build things to sell and make money. Also as the years pass many times things improve. I know my iPhone 6 works better than my motorola brick phone from the 80's. ..... so on and so forth. Anyway, there is room for improvement for the most part. I am questioning whether I should spend another ~ #3,000 with regard to how much better they will sound. I really appreciate your thought full replies! Thanks, Dave

care to elaborate? Do you mean to infer that SS is your preferred prescription?

not that the khorns need help. But most everything can be improved most of the time. I tried using the search but must have done it wrong. What upgrades are improvements to the Khorn? Steep slope cross overs? eliptrix wood horns 2" with high quality drivers? Etc? Addendum... I just learned of Volti. Greg uses Vtrack but fast lane eliptrix... how do they sound different ?

Which Decware amp would be best for the khorns... i am leaning to the ZMA

Thanks for that Maynard. BUT this begs the question. What with all the care Mike Sanders at Quicksilver put into the Horn mono's, and the HUGH HUGH out put transformer, I doubt VERY SERIOUSLY that the kit amp will sound any better. Also 8 watts is about 22 less that what PWK thought would be a sufficient power...... DONT YOU THINK? AND like I said the HORN MONOS did sound better than the F6 and a small bit better than the Yamaha 1030. But not worth the cost. IN fact with the TT now spinning the system sounds the best yet. BUT I FORGOT what a PITA records are! lol What do you think?

CALLING JUSTIN WEBER! My TT came in today. Spinning wax revealed what my memory was looking for. I still want to try a different tube amp and the FW F7. Maybe like some one said " a different pre-amp ( other than my current Stealth DC-1)" Hey Justin, You can let me try the Casablanca ... if your amp succeeds, look at all the press you would get! Of course I am willing to pay for shipping each way if they are not what I am looking for.

The curiosity is killing me. What is this 25 watt push pull EL84 amplifier? In case you did not get it from what I wrote previously, Quick Silver horn mono's. TO BE PERFECTLY CLEAR...they sounded great. but $2,000 better than the yamaha rx A1030... not so much. If I did not have the yammy 1030, the horn mono's are keepers! AND the fact that I have the Yamaha RX 1030 is accidental. I had been wanting a Macintosh or Pass amp. I never thought I would have the money to buy one, and in fact did not ( at the time) . BUT i needed an amp. I looked on CL and this 1030 which I knew nothing about was for sale brand new used less than a week. I offered the guy $400 and he took it. I connected it to my ( new to me) lascalas and it sounded good. Thinking that tubes would sound better I saved up and bought the Big Ben. Since that is a buy it and you keep it, I kept it. Although it sounded a small bit better than the 1030, again it was not worth the money as far as sound improvement goes. Then, 2 yrs later, I got to listen to khorns. I was blown away by the improvement! BUT NOW the BB 6 watt SET just was not enough for the BASS when comparing to the yamaha 1030. So now you know the rest of the story.

with regard to the above statements. I say this with humility and hope for finding the truth... I played Bella Flecks "FLIGHT OF THE COSMIC HIPPO". This work will tax all equipment that tries to reproduce it. In playing that music I can tell you with full certainty the following: When I say best sound possible, I am taking about music that sounds as close to original as possible. My big ben 4 ~6 watt SET did not have enough to power to reproduce bass notes as well as a 25 watt p/p amp. This makes sense big time. ........ the Khorn with its incredible dynamic range will "most likely" ( maybe---- maybe not) perform best with bi-amp. An SET for top side and SS for lows..... or some equipment similar. As for how this will sound, one would have to try it and see. ***** THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD****** WITH REGARD TO All the above talk about this and that. WELL it is important to compare apples to apples. What I mean is that one should take one song that has the full spectrum of frequencies ( 20 hertz to 20,000 hertz). This song should be played through all equipment in question. Why because audio engineers will vary settings as recording or mastering is being done. DOESN'T it make sense to compare you know values?

Yes, please do not mess up my thread! Besides I am looking for info not arguments.