ninjai18
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Posts posted by ninjai18
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None of my points have been effectively refuted. So I'll just let that stand.
You mean except for the lengthy and informative posts from the designer himself?
Again, nothing I said was effectively refuted. Not sure what's confusing about that.
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Heh, ad hominem attacks. Original. How about you actually refute my points, Thaddy? Which part do you disagree with, exactly? So parts SHOULD be crammed together shouldering one another? Or that Mills resistors are not better quality than cheap ceramics? Or how about the coils laying less than an inch apart down flat on the board...? I'm waiting...
Sure doesn't take much to get a hair up this forum's ***.i'm not an electrical engineer, so i have no idea.. and my point is that neither do you. You're presenting this facade of knowledge and authority when all you're doing to simply regurgitating phrases you that you read when Dean expressed caution surrounding your idea of transplanting the RF-3 networks from PCB to slabs of wood. and then when a Klipsch Engineer does engage you for discussion, you simply pass him off as lazy and uninformed.
you're arguing on a topic with which you have absolutely no business doing so.
Ahh yes, so you are an elitist who believes only people with a degree in a subject have the right to say anything, now you make more sense. I clearly don't have a clue, seeing as my upgrades worked extremely well.
None of my points about crossover parts quality and layout have been effectively refuted. So I'll just let that stand. -
Maybe it's a case of "It's not what you say, but how you say it"? I agree, there is nothing wrong with asking questions as opposed to saying something like, "What was Klipsch thinking when they did it that way? That goes against basic knowledge".....I think that type of statement comes across as very condescending or as "I know more than you do". Not trying to be argumentative here, just saying this might be why your criticism isn't being well received.
This isn't the first time around either though, initially it was that he decided the new R-115SW was a piece of junk because the box "probably" didn't have a small cross brace like an SVS, and was insistent that sombody tear theirs apart to prove or disprove this notion. When people do nothing but stuff like this with not much else to say, after awhile they tend to look like a troll.
And people like you tend to look like zealot fanboys.
Care to sight where I worded it as a "piece of junk"...? I love how you are now twisting my words. Wonderful crap slinging, you must be a politician or watch Fox News. How dare I ask about detailed information. Klipsch is not traditionally known for well designed subs. -
on the contrary, i think it's a healthy discussion at times. i just don't think you're at all equipped to be the one initiating it.
I know plenty about audio to comment. I never said I was an "expert", but it doesn't take an expert to hear the very obvious improvement these crossover upgrades people are doing. I have now heard it first hand, and have absolutely no doubt that Klipsch customers across the board would prefer the sound. You are coming across as one those people that thinks only "experts" have the right to offer up any construction criticism, which is, quite frankly, ridiculous.
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Maybe it's a case of "It's not what you say, but how you say it"? I agree, there is nothing wrong with asking questions as opposed to saying something like, "What was Klipsch thinking when they did it that way? That goes against basic knowledge".....I think that type of statement comes across as very condescending or as "I know more than you do". Not trying to be argumentative here, just saying this might be why your criticism isn't being well received.
Right, but these are simply basic crossover design facts as stated by people who have made many of them and information from well regarded sources. I am not saying these things to "piss people off" - I am saying this to insight a well needed upgrade across their higher end speakers.
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Heh, ad hominem attacks. Original. How about you actually refute my points, Thaddy? Which part do you disagree with, exactly? So parts SHOULD be crammed together shouldering one another? Or that Mills resistors are not better quality than cheap ceramics? Or how about the coils laying less than an inch apart down flat on the board...? I'm waiting...
Sure doesn't take much to get a hair up this forum's ***. -
My good man, I think you misunderstand. Firstly, I hope you realized that I am a loudspeaker engineer for Klipsch who makes said "design decisions".
No engineer would ever spec a part of low or poor quality. The crossover is the heart of the speaker, and easily the most important part. Minor changes here and there have massive ramifications. To "upgrade" your speakers with Mills resistors and Auricaps of equivalent value is your prerogative. We will never endorse such a modification, however.
To "upgrade" your speakers by changing values means that it is no longer design intent and you've tailored the sound of a Klipsch speaker to something you happen to prefer. That's perfectly fine since everyone has their own taste. This does not make it a better Klipsch speaker. It makes it a speaker using Klipsch parts that you've modded. Either way, that's your call.
However, to state that the RF7 with its stock resistors is horribly grainy sound and simply by putting in a different ceramic resistor you can create audio nirvana implies that the people who designed your speaker in the first place are clueless. If the difference is so stark, then we clearly don't know what we're doing otherwise we would have done it in the first place. Alternatively, it could mean that we do know what we're doing, but we knowingly neutered the flagship Reference speaker. Consider that for a moment.
You are free to mod, purchase mods and post mods on here at your heart's content. Us engineers are fully aware of the science behind capacitors, inductors and resistors. We don't chose parts that compromise the drivers and cabinets we spend so much time and effort designing. If you hear a large difference using a different resistor, then that's fantastic that you're enjoying your speaker even more. If you like them stock, then that's just as fantastic.
Do not assume, however, that we're putting cheap, low quality parts in products that we're proud of. More to the point, do not imply that had we only done what is obvious, that we'd have a far superior product. Trust me, we've got it under control.
This really is amazing to me, and I sure would love it if others with mods would chime in on this. How you could possibly say the cheap ceramic resistors and tiny brown caps are as good of quality as some Daytons, Mills, Jantzens, or Mundorfs ect is beyond me... I am wondering if you have actually heard a fully upgraded Klipsch crossover... It is not just my "personal preference" that they sound better, I have played them for many friends and family members, and everyone universally agrees that they are, without exception, much improved. Not in a million years would I ever go back to stock with how they sound now, I dare say anyone would agree with this sentiment.
Cramming parts so close together is another issue with the crossovers. I am not saying you are a bad engineer, I am saying that Klipsch are making these decisions for financial reasons, i.e., cutting corners to save money. I understand many companies do this (doesn't make it right), I am simply suggesting the radical notion that spending a little extra on quality crossover components (the heart of the speaker, as you put it) would be a welcome upgrade.
No offense, but if you had it really handled, the upgrades I did would not be so blatantly obvious to myself and everyone who hears them. (no, they did not have any mechanical problems prior to upgrade)But you know, according to many on this forum, that's just crazy talk... Good grief.
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two weeks ago he couldn't read capacitor values, schematics, or solder to save your (pcb's) life. Now he's the resident expert on crossover mods, the electrical properties of inductors, and has made it his personal mission to change Klipsch's business model? did i miss something?
My information on what makes a good crossover comes from DeanG and Bob Crites, which some might argue are fairly knowledgeable.
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and yet hear you go again disagreeing with someone who im pretty sure is a Klipsch employee. You asked for an answer. The guy gave you one. Yet it's not good enough.
Say what you will, but you cannot deny results. Every person who heard my speakers before the mod agrees that they sound far far superior after the mod, for minimal cost to boot. People would not be paying people like Bob, Al and Dean to do mods to their crossovers if it only made negligible improvements. It's simply factually incorrect to say the difference is minimal, it is not. People keep saying "they chose them for a design reason" - as though they couldn't possibly choose lower quality parts - yet every person that upgrades their crossovers loves the improvement. It truly amazes me that I am being pushed aside and scoffed at for having the "audacity" to say they could use improvement. I never even attacked Klipsch, I have stated multiple times on this forum that they are my favorite speakers and I love them as a company. Amazing that being a loyal a fan isn't good enough, I suppose "zealot" would be preferred.Side by side: Mills ceramic resistors vs. "regular" ceramic resistors used in the majority of Klipsch networks.
They are both wire-wound, and both have ceramic cores. Both are non-inductive up into the 100s of kHz range (I've personally tested). Tolerance is 1% vs. 2%.
Top of the range Mundorf Supreme resistors clocking in at $15-$20 each are ceramic core, wire-wound, 2% tolerance and non-inductive.
The biggest thing that changes between resistors is power dissipation. The tiny ones used in the smallest bookshelf speakers are 5W, while the ones used in Palladium are 20W or 25W. They are of the same type as the Mundorfs listed above. Mills resistors are 12W, and the Mundorf Supreme are 20W.
As a resistor heats up, it creates more and more of what's called Johnson noise, which is caused by thermal variations. The way to lessen this is to have greater heat dissipation, hence, the use of "high power" resistors in circuits where while you'll never cook the resistor, you want as little noise as possible. Palladium took this approach.
By design, all that a crossover component can do is be less detrimental than any other. It cannot improve signal fidelity. Resistors, by virtue of being the most linear of all passive components, have the least effect by far. Inductors are absolutely the most carefully selected ones, yet get the least amount of attention. Changing an inductor of equivalent value but different DCR can quite literally ruin your crossover network and thus speaker performance. All Palladium inductors are air-core and were chosen for a reason. The ones in the P37, 38 and 39 low pass sections are about the diameter of a Nalgene and could double as 1kg bracelets.
Just a touch of light on the selection of components in crossover networks.
Calling me a fanboy doesn't hurt my feelings. I like Klipsch speakers and other companies as well. Klipsch suits my ear for what I can afford. If you hadn't noticed I own their cinema line and the palladiums. Is that fanboy to do that? Lol sure why not. Guess what? I bet you any amount of money you want that all of them sound better than your modded rf-3ii's. Even with their "crappy" crossovers. Im not the only one that feels your whining a bit either. So keep boohoo'ing as you call it.
So now we're relegating to d**k measuring... Boy oh boy, you sure got me...
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Ugh, whatever. Forget it. You're all right, you should never criticize or object to design decisions of a company that makes something you own. Duly noted.
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Seeing those pics raises another question, why doesn't Klipsch simply place one of the air core coils at a right angle? Everyone who knows anything about coils will tell you that it is always better than having them laying flat right next to each other. It causes interference and cross talk between the inductors. This is basic stuff.
How are you going to situate two circles at a right angle? The right angle thing came from using long iron core coils, they would be perpendicular to each other. I suppose you could stand one up on its end if really necessary but that's not really called a right angle. I have never seen a factory crossover do this.
Standing one up is referred to as a "right angle."
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They certainly do to my ear.
I'm not sure it's irrational to ask these questions. Why wouldn't someone want to know what parts are going into their product? And why is it unreasonable to expect them to upgrade parts across new releases? I find it strange that I keep getting flak from people every time I ask any detailed questions about the internals of their products... Odd. It sorta reminds of the Nintendo fanboys that jump down your throat when you dare ask the hardware specs of one of their consoles.I think it's akin to saying we should notify Chevy that they would see huge improvements for only a few bucks more if they outfitted all new Corvettes with K&N filters, because maybe they just aren't aware.
No, it's not.
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Side by side: Mills ceramic resistors vs. "regular" ceramic resistors used in the majority of Klipsch networks.
They are both wire-wound, and both have ceramic cores. Both are non-inductive up into the 100s of kHz range (I've personally tested). Tolerance is 1% vs. 2%.
Top of the range Mundorf Supreme resistors clocking in at $15-$20 each are ceramic core, wire-wound, 2% tolerance and non-inductive.
The biggest thing that changes between resistors is power dissipation. The tiny ones used in the smallest bookshelf speakers are 5W, while the ones used in Palladium are 20W or 25W. They are of the same type as the Mundorfs listed above. Mills resistors are 12W, and the Mundorf Supreme are 20W.
As a resistor heats up, it creates more and more of what's called Johnson noise, which is caused by thermal variations. The way to lessen this is to have greater heat dissipation, hence, the use of "high power" resistors in circuits where while you'll never cook the resistor, you want as little noise as possible. Palladium took this approach.
By design, all that a crossover component can do is be less detrimental than any other. It cannot improve signal fidelity. Resistors, by virtue of being the most linear of all passive components, have the least effect by far. Inductors are absolutely the most carefully selected ones, yet get the least amount of attention. Changing an inductor of equivalent value but different DCR can quite literally ruin your crossover network and thus speaker performance. All Palladium inductors are air-core and were chosen for a reason. The ones in the P37, 38 and 39 low pass sections are about the diameter of a Nalgene and could double as 1kg bracelets.
Just a touch of light on the selection of components in crossover networks.
Say what you will, but you cannot deny results. Every person who heard my speakers before the mod agrees that they sound far far superior after the mod, for minimal cost to boot. People would not be paying people like Bob, Al and Dean to do mods to their crossovers if it only made negligible improvements. It's simply factually incorrect to say the difference is minimal, it is not. People keep saying "they chose them for a design reason" - as though they couldn't possibly choose lower quality parts - yet every person that upgrades their crossovers loves the improvement. It truly amazes me that I am being pushed aside and scoffed at for having the "audacity" to say they could use improvement. I never even attacked Klipsch, I have stated multiple times on this forum that they are my favorite speakers and I love them as a company. Amazing that being a loyal a fan isn't good enough, I suppose "zealot" would be preferred.
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man we get it. But why cloud the forum complaining about something you are never going to change? What's next? Paying taxes? I mean come on. Klipsch isn't gonna start changing manufacturing to swap out s couple resistors to make us forum people (let's fall is the 1 %'ers) happy. They just aren't. Live with it. Enjoy your modded rf-3's. One day maybe you'll stumble upon a deal on some palladiums and you can mod them to see if they sound crappy stock as you describe them as they must sound that way because of some tiny tiny little ceramic resistors.No offense, but per Klipsch rep it's "Subjective"... I had a long discussions on this topic with Klipsch rep... Needless to say, either he didn't understand or didn't digest the issue at hand.
Quote (reply from Klipsch Representative):
Thank you for your being a long-time, multiple model, Klipsch brand owner and for reaching out to our Product Support group. Each product line and specific model would be engineered and designed to meet or exceed performance standards set by our engineering and design group, within the parameters of the marketing group* for that particular model and price-point.
Sorry, we do not recommend, suggest, or support any alteration/modification of any model from that which it would have been engineered and designed. The Klipsch Forum would be a free-form of expression (with reasonable limits as defined in the Forum terms) and we do not condone or support any product modification or DYI projects. While we do appreciate your desire to make modifications, and understand that sound and the perception of sound will always be very subjective and personal, we cannot support any modifications as they would be purely experimental.
It would be unfair to compare any other Klipsch model to the Palladium line as in 2007, the engineering group was for the most part, given a blank sheet of paper with no cost limitations (*even free from marketing persuasion), to create a brand new, three-way design from the ground up- thus the Palladium line was created.
The Reference product line was created in1999 and several generations of refinements have occurred with the latest refinements occurring in the fifth generation MK II models back in 2010 (there are no current intentions for changing the RF-7 II that we are aware of). The newest Reference Premiere line has just been released with the model RP-280F being the largest in this new line of models. http://www.klipsch.com/rp-280f.
Hope this helps offer some insight. Sorry we are not able to make any modification suggestions.
Unquote:
Which is proof they are simply not listening to what customers want. I would pit my upgraded RF-3II's against stock RF-3II's ANY day of the week, I wouldn't be afraid of any test or any listener they could throw at them. I 100% guarantee you my upgraded XO's would win out every damn time. This is all PR nonsense and nice way of telling us they don't care what we want. It's sad because I have always supported them and love the products they make, and it pisses me off that some people think it's totally "unreasonable" to request that they make improvements to parts they traditionally ignore.
Because one voice can make a difference by bringing a lack of quality issue to light. If everyone thought like you, nothing in the world would ever change or improve. You don't like me pointing it out? Boohoo. You remind me of the Microsoft fanboys that defended Microsoft for their policies of disabling used games and and having an online 24 hour check in. I'm sure glad a lot of "nobody's", unlike you, actually spoke up and said something and got it changed. There is NOTHING wrong with a single "nobody" bringing an issue up and talking about it. Lay the **** off of harassing me for saying something.
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Apparently the engineers at B&W don't know the basics either as their coils on their $24,000 800D are not at right angles either. Link
With respect, those are much further apart than the RF-7II coils. Not remotely an apples to apples. And yes, even fancy B&W speakers can use refinement. Placing one at a right angle is an almost unbreakable rule of crossover layouts, unless they are far enough apart, which the RF-7II's clearly are not.
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Seeing those pics raises another question, why doesn't Klipsch simply place one of the air core coils at a right angle? Everyone who knows anything about coils will tell you that it is always better than having them laying flat right next to each other. It causes interference and cross talk between the inductors. This is basic stuff.
I can assure you they are aware of how coils can interact.
If you ever get a chance to visit Hope or Indy and talk with the engineers some of your doubts might be removed.
miketn
These are not doubts, it is well known that placing coils laying down right next to one another is terrible design decision.
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No offense, but per Klipsch rep it's "Subjective"... I had a long discussions on this topic with Klipsch rep... Needless to say, either he didn't understand or didn't digest the issue at hand.
Quote (reply from Klipsch Representative):
Thank you for your being a long-time, multiple model, Klipsch brand owner and for reaching out to our Product Support group. Each product line and specific model would be engineered and designed to meet or exceed performance standards set by our engineering and design group, within the parameters of the marketing group* for that particular model and price-point.
Sorry, we do not recommend, suggest, or support any alteration/modification of any model from that which it would have been engineered and designed. The Klipsch Forum would be a free-form of expression (with reasonable limits as defined in the Forum terms) and we do not condone or support any product modification or DYI projects. While we do appreciate your desire to make modifications, and understand that sound and the perception of sound will always be very subjective and personal, we cannot support any modifications as they would be purely experimental.
It would be unfair to compare any other Klipsch model to the Palladium line as in 2007, the engineering group was for the most part, given a blank sheet of paper with no cost limitations (*even free from marketing persuasion), to create a brand new, three-way design from the ground up- thus the Palladium line was created.
The Reference product line was created in1999 and several generations of refinements have occurred with the latest refinements occurring in the fifth generation MK II models back in 2010 (there are no current intentions for changing the RF-7 II that we are aware of). The newest Reference Premiere line has just been released with the model RP-280F being the largest in this new line of models. http://www.klipsch.com/rp-280f.
Hope this helps offer some insight. Sorry we are not able to make any modification suggestions.
Unquote:
Which is proof they are simply not listening to what customers want. I would pit my upgraded RF-3II's against stock RF-3II's ANY day of the week, I wouldn't be afraid of any test or any listener they could throw at them. I 100% guarantee you my upgraded XO's would win out every damn time. This is all PR nonsense and nice way of telling us they don't care what we want. It's sad because I have always supported them and love the products they make, and it pisses me off that some people think it's totally "unreasonable" to request that they make improvements to parts they traditionally ignore.
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Seeing those pics raises another question, why doesn't Klipsch simply place one of the air core coils at a right angle? Everyone who knows anything about coils will tell you that it is always better than having them laying flat right next to each other. It causes interference and cross talk between the inductors. This is basic stuff.
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Right, but my statement also wasn't to say that they were not aware that they could use better parts. What I meant by "bringing it to their attention" was a polite way of saying "hey, we wouldn't mind spending a few extra bucks on the speakers for you to put much better sounding resistors/caps in them."
It really does matter what parts we want them to upgrade, as we are the ones buying and living with the products. I am aware they do upgrade other parts, but to my knowledge, they have not once upgraded the resistors to something similar in performance to Mills resistors. In fact, my father-in-law was considering buying an entire RF-7II system directly from Klipsch, but changed his mind due to the grainy hot "S" sound they make, which in turn, is due to the low quality grainy sounding ceramic resistors. Funny, that once I played my new upgraded XO's he is now reconsidering again and plans to do the XO upgrade if he does go with Klipsch. I have heard and met many people that complain about this issue, as well.
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Anyone else with me on this? I think we need to bring it to their attention.
Let's be a bit rational about this.....I'm pretty certain Klipsch is fully aware of the quality caps and resistors they put in their speakers. I somehow do not think they will be surprised if we "bring it to their attention".
Besides....if they make their xovers too nice, it will put Bob, Al and Dean out of business.
With the massive difference it made on my RF-3 ii system's performanceAre these are the ones that sound better than stock RF-7ii's? Still find that pill a bit large to swallow.
They certainly do to my ear.
I'm not sure it's irrational to ask these questions. Why wouldn't someone want to know what parts are going into their product? And why is it unreasonable to expect them to upgrade parts across new releases? I find it strange that I keep getting flak from people every time I ask any detailed questions about the internals of their products... Odd. It sorta reminds of the Nintendo fanboys that jump down your throat when you dare ask the hardware specs of one of their consoles. -
While not quite wrong, it's interesting and typical from the customer's aspect that we often look at the components used and forget what's involved to create a product...
I think this goes well beyond speakers. I have people who try to argue about the dumbest things in regards to my utility trailers. Nearly always they have no idea what they are talking about. They know just enough to know some of the lingo and try to critique the technical aspects of building them. It is always a pointless waste of time and I've gotten to the point where I am happy to point this out. My worst customers are amateur welders, they will try to critique the welds before they even see a good picture much less see anything in person. I guess it makes them feel smart when they can ask technical questions in a "gotcha" kind of way but it is super annoying and pointless. They're trying to point out supposedly obvious product flaws and lecture guys who have been doing this for decades, it makes absolutely no sense. I suspect some of these speaker critique sessions are just about as useful.
While I'm sure that can be very frustrating, I can't say I agree that it's the same thing when critiquing the crossover components on Klipsch speakers. Anyone who has changed out the ceramic resistor with a Mills resistor can tell you just how immediate and striking the improvement is. I have done this upgrade myself - and read about many others who have - everyone who has heard my speakers before doing the upgrade says they sound much better after the upgrade.
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Wow!! Those are very impressive! Only thing I'd change is using some nice Mills resistors, as the ceramic ones sound harsh and grainy.
Nets on the test bench.I sure would love to see some. I am dying to know if they use higher quality parts than the reference and heritage lines.
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This is one thing I wish Klipsch would do more. Many of us gear heads are really interested in seeing those crossovers, driver magnets, and internal layout/bracing, as these things really effect sound quality. I would love to buy some Premiere 280F towers down the road, but would like to know if they're still using the grainy sounding wire would resistors they have traditionally used. We really shouldn't have to spend Palladium level prices to get reasonable quality resistors and caps in them.
Honestly, it would be awesome if they would spend a few extra bucks and just go to something like Mills resistors and quality larger metalized poly caps. Anyone else with me on this? I think we need to bring it to their attention. With the massive difference it made on my RF-3 ii system's performance by simply spending a few bucks and upgrading the resistors/caps on them, I can't see why Klipsch wouldn't just do this themselves to begin with. It would yield very very high ratings in professional and consumer reviews. The improvement is THAT noticeable. I went to Fry's to listen to some Premieres, and while they sound great, they don't hold a candle to my newly XO upgraded RF-3 II's. (I know, the room and setup is different, but I could still tell)
I know I know, people are gonna say it's to "save money", but it could also increase sales by beating out the sound quality of other manufacturers handily.
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no speaker is worth 10k IMO
Palladiums are the only speakers I'd happily pay that much for if I could spare the money.
I could certainly be wrong... but I think they said at one of the gatherings (at HQ in Indy) that the woofers on the P39's were different in the crossover. Meaning, they didn't have the same crossover point. One was more of a woofer and the other was more of a mid-woofer.
You may be correct but the spec sheet does not indicate that.
Sure looks cool on the inside.
Bill
WOW!! I am VERY impressed!!
Would love to see more if anyone is so inclined..
Sure doesn't take much to get a hair up this forum's ***.
None of my points about crossover parts quality and layout have been effectively refuted. So I'll just let that stand. 
Palladium crossover networks...
in Home Theater
Posted
Not remotely the same. Good god.