RoboKlipsch
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Posts posted by RoboKlipsch
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i think those are excellent points BonsaNut. I have an externally amped system with a few thousand watts to run my theater system and understand where u are coming from.
we cant get too ahead of ourselves though. short of a few high end consumer products there arent many speakers rated with higher sensitivity.....klipschhorns for example.
we have no idea if the op even iistens at reference or how often....so i didnt want to confuse the discussion going past his own questions of which speakers to buy by then saying hey more amp...what about treatment etc....
running at under 10watts most of the time he will have no distortion....if an explosion hits the max amp power and has even 1% distortion he wont notice that either imo. it would be very loud music where he would hear that qualitative diference at high volumes....very high. since he has a giant screen in the room i think he doubtfully does critical listening at 100+db...that was why i didnt get into the amp.
to me when a q is asked i try to answer thoroughly but not go past it too far. we can always spend more money on better....but most people just want their q answered i think
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A 97db sensitive speaker at 1m away is 97db at 1watt. At 10 feet its 87db. 1 watt.
Double the watts and add 3db each time to total dbs.
Now a movie at full reference runs at a continuous maximum db of 85. So look up again....even at 14 feet away you are using 2......2 watts per channel with Klipsch. THAT is the beauty of klipsch design...clarity with very little power required. Many music listeners use 5 or 10watt tube amps for quality purposes and are thrilled with it.
So if a peak is 105db at 14feet that would max out the original OPs avr for just that brief peak moment. Denons put out their rated power...each channel is a discrete amp channel. So hitting peak momentarily will be easy, and in fact his setup could likely drive it continuously or very close. But a movie never calls for that. It calls for momentary peaks...a crash or explosion or gunfire.
Keep in mind it also will only max out the front channels, the surrounds rarely are that loud. Again that makes the demand on the power supply less and easily handled.
My view, already having a very similar setup with 105wpc myself is it is easily enough. Upgrade will never be needed.
Higher rms power in the rb81s will only come into play with extreme volume music listening. Again we are talking ear splitting! 105db from a tweeter is uncomfortable. With tv and movies the OP will be using roughly 1 to 16watts almost all the time.
External amplification or more anplification has different benefits. Its well worth a discussion but will hardly be an issue in this setup.
OP again get whichever you prefer, dont decide based upon rms capability. The rp can handle 400watts peak. You would blow up your ears before u ever came close to using that.
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That distance is a bit too close to be great but will still work imo. I would recommend the s speakers because they diffuse the sound a bit more and are shallower when on the wall. It would be very beneficial to mount them above ear level so they dont play directly at your ears and are high enough to reach other seats i.e. not be blocked by a head.
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In your case i think it makes sense either way but i would get the rp160ms based upon quality no matter which was more expensive.
105db is crazy loud and we were talking about rms - continuous power. The rp160 can handle several hundred watts during a peak. So u can upgrade and still have full reference power and easily handle it.
If u blasted music at crazy levels all day then the rms might matter.
Get 7 rp160ms and have 7.xx sound. No compromises.
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36 minutes ago, shaneacook1989 said:
Thank you very much for your reply roboklipsch, I do not have an acoustically transparent screen and not really looking into one....buy I do have some flexibility in this room with speaker placement because I can move my screen up and down along with the projector. But I can't move the screen high enough to accommodate 3 280fs up front but I could do 3 or 5 81s quite easily.
Could you expand on the benefits of 5 rp160ms over 5 rb81s?
Thanks again,
Shane
i would honestly go with 5 bookshelves anyway, the small benefit of the rp280fs is outweighed imo by their huge size. put 5 rb81s in the room you will be thrilled.
the rp160ms are the newest bookshelves from klipsch. they changed the horn a bit and covered it in a material that makes the tweeter sound a bit better than earlier models. the entire rp line has this. with that said though its just a qualitative point by me. i love both but preferred the rp160s by a little. several here on the forum love them too. the rb81s are front ported and can sit closer to a wall but really we are talking say 4 inches needed for an rp160 so again little difference.
at 10 ft away the rp160m at 96db sensitivity and 100rms watts is good for about reference, 105db
at 10 ft away the rb81 at 97db and 150rms capability is good for higher spl, 109 or 110db
but your avr puts out about 105watts anyway so both work and the rbs would be limited to about 106 in your sitch
both speakers have a much higher peak capability, so if u listen loud or want reference further away u need more power for reference with either. the only point being the rbs are designed to handle more power for higher continuous output
i would move up the screen enough to put a bookshelf beneath the screen....not on the floor preferably but if so tilted up to your ears. i would place identical bookshelves in the other 4 spots. which would depend upon how much they cost and what i liked better. its worth a trip to a store to hear both and be confident in what u like better. all klipsch, esp these bookshelves, are terrific imo. so if u decide to buy blind go with whichever provides the best price. keep in mind newer has a bit higher resale value i.e. rp line
how far do u sit from the screen?
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i am just one opinion but ive been down this road myself. having a big screen does matter and whether or not its transparent for sound matters a lot.
i would not think of price as the foremost concern here, there is a diff but more important is your goals. even in a large room sitting further away the rb81s can easily hit reference. having a seamless front, or better yet fully matching system will have very noticeable benefits imo. but its also not the end all decision point.
first, subs are very important in a nice theater. dont go cheap on subs, better to get at least 2 nice subs that hit down low that you can place in different parts of the room for a consistent response in multiple seats. thats where real $$ shoud be spent, potentially 1000 or more on 2 used, whatever they may be.
now considering the front stage again the screen type matters. ideally if they can go behind the screen u can choose whatever u want. but a floorstanding speaker sits on the floor, obviously, while a bookshelf needs to either be mounted or on a stand. how u want them setup matters.
the rp280f is a great speaker...but with subs there is not much benefit over an rb81, or rp160m. the rp280f CANNOT replace what a sub does. yes it plays lower than a bookshelf, but not low enough for home theater. the height of the r280f is good for just placing it and being at ear level.
if the screen were transparent the highest end install would be 5 rp280fs. correct height, plenty of everything and matching. but with good subs thats overkill imo. good overkill but overkill. 5 rb81s is just about as good, and requires they be mounted or put on stands or a baffle wall.
there is no....repeat....no benefit to the rp450c in your situation. its big but big is not best here. 3 of the same, or 5, is. any center will be loud enough, the difference is a really cool and seamless sweep of sound from one part of the room to another. if all 5 are the same you really cant do better. it may be hard to grasp but the rb81 can and will do as good or better than the rp450c.
in every theater setup, subs handle the low end below say 60, 80 or 100hz. thats because subs can be put in better places to reproduce low frequencies while main speakers kind of need to be in certain places. dont get fooled into buying giant fronts thinking bigger is better. if u listened to just 2 channel music then maybe, but not in a theater setting.
5 rb81iis with 2 great subs will blow u away the best for the price. if cost effective 5 rp160ms would be as good or better, i love the rp160ms.
dont buy an rc62, too small. the center is key and should match the fronts or if not, be at least as big as the mains woofers.
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1 hour ago, SWL said:
Thanks Wim. Yeah, looks like you can tweak til your hearts content with this thing. So far I'm really happy but thinking I might trying cutting the sub off at 35hz instead of 40hz and see what that does.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
theres 2 important points here....1 the co pt will of course create a graph that will help u create a flat response. but distance plays a huge factor too. as u adjust the sub distance that co graph will change dramatically. there can be a 15db suckout or bump at the co depending upon distance. measure the actual distance to the mlp including the horn length and then dial in the co pt u want. it is night and day getting it right that midbass u want will shine when right
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4 hours ago, WESeib said:
I deeply appreciate the response.
When I move to 7.x.x I will use monopoles (direct) thank you.
It looks like I made a good call getting the RP-250's instead of the RP-160m's then. My surrounds (side) speakers are literally 3 feet to the side and 9 inches behind my listening position.
I came home to the two 250S speakers last night in Walnut.
I can't wait until Tuesday when I get the mains and center!
They are very large for rears.
Much larger then I expected them to be.
My current rears are Bose 161's
U made great and wise choices. At 3 feet a mono would not work especially one that is a foot deep!
If you have not yet experienced the WDST klipsch you are in for a treat. By far my fave from klipsch. They may look like they only go sideways but that is not the case. The two sets of drivers are aligned to give the strongest signal similar to a mono but also have a more diffuse pattern to reach a larger area, in your case critical since u are 3 feet. Place them above ear level at a minimum. My suggestion is dont guess how high or exactly where to place them...test first. Put them on ladders, boxes....a little higher, a little lower, and suddenly one set of spots will have as i like to say, the "magic". It just sounds perfect in the right spot in a room. Congrats and feel free to ask anything else u wonder we all love to do virtual setups ☺
U picked the top of the premiere line and will be at least as thrilled with all of them as u will the surrounds.
Rerrun your accueq program each time u change something. Then dont be afraid to tweak the volumes of the center and surrounds. Its about what sounds best in your room.
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25 minutes ago, KA1J said:
After listening to the replies and looking at reviews (thank you for your replies), I decided to settle on one of the new SVS SB-4000. It had quite a few and varied options to adjust its characteristics to the existing sound system, even one that works with Android. My McIntosh has 75W per channel and that is plenty and as an acoustic musician I am more into linear sound than hearing a pop at any certain frequency, be that ultra low or otherwise. The ported version would be wonderful, I'm sure, but from my past experience with ported speakers, they can hang and add an artificial character to lower notes. Having the sub be crisp and efficient at lowest frequencies to mate with my existing speakers will fit better with my library which has no electronic music other than amplified instruments (most are acoustic, sans amplifiers).
I'm sure I'd be happy with any of the Subwoofers, including the R115SW, it was the ability to alter the characteristics wirelessly, on the fly that made the difference.
Cheers!
Congrats on making a great choice. Let us know how u like it please.
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rears are usually monopoles because most surround comes from the sides. the issue with surrounds is you dont want them firing directly at your ear from close distance say 3 or 4 feet away. a simple solution is to have them a foot or so above ear level which helps also to reach all the seats without a head blocking a line of hearing.
if you are very close to them or just want them then go ahead i personally love the WDST klipsch speakers but in my situations have found that monos work better, just my 2c. rp160ms are great speakers and more than what is needed if you are looking for back surrounds but are the best ones.
side surrounds are where listening distance is critical. under 5 feet no monos for sure....at a distance of 12 to 15 feet away monos are preferred because you want some directionality but even then both could work
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Rew needs the umik only. u need to have the laptop sound output set right to make the hdmi work
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Dtel thanks for sharing I think it looks great! I love the wood and especially like that quality trumps concerns whethet or not it looks ideal to a designer! Wall mounts are amazing and the articulating one is night and day better. I have most of my theater room treated including the front wall and find it makes everything sound better including just the tv on its own. Im out so i cant share a pic now.
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there are no svs subs in my signature or my setups but it doesnt mean they arent great
few people care to diy and fewer want 10cft+ boxes in their room
what u and i want doesnt matter...its necessary to focus on what the op wants which is a ht sub
thats why i dont reco a diy option when he initially states hed like a klipsch, esp in the klipsch forum
no doubt room and placement are critical but that goes right to the point that a sub with flat response within a range can likely be flat in most rooms and wont require corner loading to reach down low. the r115sw will hit 18 at -3db minimum anywhere in his room, and of course placing it right will be critical to get the most out of it
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1 hour ago, jason str said:
Flat frequency response is useless unless you are using them in a airplane hangar or a large theater setting, the room itself and placement dictates frequency response. More importantly distortion, build quality and SPL is what you should be looking at and those measurements are not listed as far as i have seen.
Warranty and return is great but nothing i have heard from them is special in any way but admit being spoiled with horn loaded models.
flat frequency response is not useless and as you know is an issue with many horn designs especially larger horns playing up above 80hz. the size of a horn box is quite simply huge and although its cool to get unlimited spl above 30hz most people looking for a full ht experience want their subs to play down below 20hz more than they want 120db at 30 and up. ive heard many horn subs, i know they are spectacular but you at some point have to recognize the fact that most horns are not ideal for ht until they are huge in size.
A danley dts at 25cft is awesome but not what most people want, let alone say 2 that they dont necessarily want placed in corners
audioholics has cea measurements of all the svs subs. a couple of used pb2000s or pc2000s offer a lot more placement options and plenty of low thd spl until they reach their limits. looking at max output and thd ignores performance just below that level
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for ht a big ported sub is necessary, preferably 2 imo
for music no sub needed but ht these days goes below 20hz which is the OPs original intent
svs pays free shipping and free returns...so u can try one out no charge if u dont like it
they even have an upgrade program in case u want a larger model
they have a solid 5yr warranty and design all their subs with a very flat response
the klipsch 115sw is the only consumer model i would recommend...its excellent and well priced
svs every model imo is designed for ht especially the 2000series and up
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1 hour ago, dtel said:
Just went to one of these a few months ago, they work great, pull out to install or change wires and push it back. Because of where we sit and the height of how I needed it put the Tv which is kind of high which I like, it even allow you to tilt it down a little, works great. You don't need to spend a ton of money either, 65" 4 K tv @65 pounds and a very heavy full motion mount was about $60 and is rated for 110 pounds.
Really glad I did this, positioning the Tv is easy, plus had no choice couldn't leave the Tv on the new sub, needed a place for the electronics to go.
great points. hd tvs allow close seating too. i pulled mine out a lot and the screen is much bigger that way. no downsides as it can be left against the wall. mine was from monoprice might have been 120 back in 2008...a great price then. my plasma weighs 110...a great tv but a brick. i was scared for 3 days wondering if it would fall but the studs held 😊
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Definitely wall mount tv but get an articulating one that allows you to pull it in and out from the wall, its a nice feature.
you can keep both, just make sure they are stacked one way or the other. the real center should be as close to ear level as possible
another option is to mount the tv with the soundbar beneath, and then the center on the console, again insuring the soundbar has a clear path.
best option is more radical...move the console elsewhere, mount the tv ang get a 3rd matching l/r speaker for the center soundbar optional. 3 of the same is THAT good imo but not required
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i am happy to help w some suggestions but if u are ocd we have to start with placement
there are enormous issues with seating at the back wall. placing the rps is the least of it
bass is very inconsistent in most rooms but almost always build near walls...terribly loud compared to the rest of the room
you need at least 2 subs for smooth response, i could see front left corner, moving the left channel to same distance from tv as right, and another potentially in the back right corner, calibrated so you wont know where either are located watching a movie...just a thought
reflections from all speakers also bounce right behind your ears at a very close distance that smears the sound and reduces clarity
a commonly used ratio is for seating to be 1/3 from the front or back of the room
now thats just a benchmark. could you:
1) consider moving the seating forward say 3 feet?
2) would you consider some sound panels back there? that removes the reflection problems and if bass traps further reduces buildup
im not trying to make your room look different than you had planned. i know enough about theater setup and am 95%movies/tv and know what that back wall, untreated, does to a theater
you already know the optimum placement for the surrounds. youll need them placed at least a foot and preferably 2 feet over the seat backs because you dont want the seats or heads blocking sound to all the seats. yes center of speaker is the point measure but is not important. compromises are always in the mix but really the back wall is a huge negative for seating
a lot to consider but trust me its night and day
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proper placement is key
its a great sub and will do its part keeping up w those awesome mains 🤠
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47 minutes ago, KA1J said:
Hi & thanks for the reply!
I might not have said things clearly, I bought the soundbar solely for the TV for watching news/Jeoprady/Oak Island kinds of things; the soundbar does come with a subwoofer but not a great one. The stereo I have would be fantastic to use with the TV all the time if it were not for it using tubes, and the tubes I have in it are expensive ones from the 60's, so when I use the stereo it has been to listen to lossless music formats or vinyl, never streaming compressed music.
Now that I have a 65" OLED TV, I'll use the McIntosh with it when watching a HD/DVD movie or live HD music and with that, I'd like a subwoofer to ideally match with my Klipsch Chorus & Forte' pairs. This means I won't be using the Klipsch or whichever high quality sub when using the soundbar, I'll just use the stock sub that came with it and for music & watching movies/HD videos, the tube equipment will be running.
got it. the biggest model youcan fit, r115sw being the biggest is best, not because of some hey gets nuts attitude but simply being the best performer. with your setup you need great performance under 40hz and from klipsch that is r115sw. you dont want a model that doesnt get down to 20hz at a minimum....theater has a lot of content down to around 16 or 17.
many other options from other mfg but the 115 is excellent and has had some great pricing too
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a smaller sub will likely fit the bill and be especially cheap from frys on one of their crazy specials.
the only thing you want to know for sure is what the frequency range of the soundbar is....how low it plays
if it shows a -3db stat that will tell you how high the sub needs to play comfortably.
if it doesnt that likely means at best it plays down to that fequency at -10db and needs an even higher crossover
klipsch doesnt offer much high crossovers...say 150 or higher because their mains always play down lower
if your crossover poimt needs to be say 200hz i highly recommend an svs pb1000 or even an sb1000....or their sb12nsd which has had great sale pricing for a while. they can all play up to i think 300hz w a flat response but also get down to 20hz for the pb and 25 for the sealed models. for a soundbar thats plenty.
if you want one you could integrate into the main system also, then a pb2000 or pc2000 becomes a great option as they play down under 20hz and could enhance your current setup and the soundbar.
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speaker designers have for a very long time considered how their mains should integrate with subs and the avr manufacturers have also, i believe many are 12db (2nd order) and a few are 18db (3rd).
how your tubas will blend is very easily determined with a set of measurements looking at the smoothness through the crossover. When its perfectly flat you are then able to create any curve you want on the low end with the dsp settings. which order to use is mainly based on your room and equipment. How far up past the crossovers the subs will play is very much a factor of that slope....6db per octave is very shallow and will play up a lot higer than a 24db.
many subs especially horns have issues crossed up very high or playing up high. this would make the slope chosen very important at say 80 or 100hz cross...but not down low. jason can best address the highest crossover/slope options to keep you away from coloring the sound with port resonances or jagged frequency response.
im psyched to hear the next level swl!
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jason gave great advice and built u great subs
because our ears are less sensitive to bass it makes sense it is calibrated for say 70 db but as you go higher your very good ear quickly hears the bloat where the subs are adding too much.
a 4th order hpf at 35 will likely be a good starting point
also i think the dsp offers dynamic eq...where u can have it augment the bass at lower volumes and u can choose how much boost and how quickly it falls off so you wont ever have to adjust it based on spl...u will have it preprogrammed
you will learn basic REW in 30minutes.
your highly experienced and sensitive ear will have a field day with a mic and rew and dsp
prepare to take swl to an even higher level 😎
i would estimate i have put in 200hrs to set calibrate and measure my rooms...its that fun for me
but i also had a big learning curve and desire to know as much as possible
your music will have way more detail imo
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behind a transaprent screen should be better if they line up right
theres some good leeway on placement...if you move your head up and down and hear the tweeter better than the klfs arent ideally placed but equal to the mids could be fine if you sit at least 7 feet away
center channels usually have horns that arent symmetrical so turning them sideways often makes them less consistent
ideally you would have 3 klf20s behind the screen it would be an impressive upgrade in quality and surround sound
Klipsch R-14S or R-15M for surround speakers
in Home Theater
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1ft is very close, i would prefer to move the couch forward another 2 or 3 feet.
but assuming that is a No, i would test both to see what sounds better. quite likely the back corners is best in that sitch.