Clipped and Shorn

jazman, I use two turntables, one exclusively set up in case I want to spin an old 78 for historical purposes (I am too lazy to be changing cartridges all the the time). I use one of those inexpensive ratshack source switchers. It has three inputs and one output. I checked with mdeneen to verify that these simple switch boxes can just as easily be used in the reverse "direction", that is you can have one input switch to three different "outs". I think these little devices come in handy when you want to switch things around without plugging and unplugging all the time. also tnx for the reassurance that the Cornwalls will soon be sounding fine when all the tubes are in place. I too have a bunch of nicely recorded jazz, but I also listen to "historical" old latin recordings on atrocious budget labels. No getting around the fact that i sometimes need to listen to music that has lots of soul but sounds like garbage. Even some of the CD reissues of this important material have managed to preserve the garbage sound. I wish there was some kind of filter you could add to the equation, but if there were, I am sure I would have heard about it by now. I have to admit, I often resort to playing some of this old vinyl "wet", seems to help (with noise but not really with bad original recording-like over-recorded levels or inappropiate reverbs etc), but probably is not that great for the stylus-Disc fluid I mean. Have not had any problem so far. I brought back about 100 LPs from Havana last summer, almost all of that vinyl plays better wet, not sure why, something about Cuban recording technique, who knows. Must be the accumulation of tropical goo, sugar cane residue, and cigar smoke. -Bongoed and Congaed This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 03-05-2002 at 03:08 PM

kh, thanks. I will be looking forward to the tube pre and the tube amp mdeneen is helping me put together. I can really tell the difference between the quality of my various recordings now more with the Cornwalls than ever before. If I couldn't be looking forward to this upcoming tube gear I think I would find the Cornwalls somewhat frustrating since they exaggerate the shortcomings of so many recordings with this ss recvr. At some point I should take the back off the Cornwalls to verify what exactly is in there. I seem to remember from the photos on the original eBay spread, that it contains all the good stuff. Vinyl, Jazz, Tubes, and the Cornwalls hopefully will make me crave listening rather than wanting to avoid it. -laurelled and hardied

HornEd, Great post, just my cup of tea, late hour well written with stream of consciousness creativity thrown in. Think of the great video snippets we could all be making of some of these happenings. You must inform mdeneen that his descent of the staircase will be clothing optional. -reddi-made watts and ****** champ

Jazman, You have listened to your Cornwalls with the HF-81 and the Moondogs, and I assume you have had the volume up. My question is: with these nice tube amps is the harsh edge that the Cornwalls sometimes exhibit remedied? (eg. without going inside the Corns and doing that dampening thing). My Corns, as well as fini's, have a certain harshness somewhere between the mids and tweeters while running on these "nothing special" ss receivers. Just wondered if you are now totally happy with the sound of the Corns with your two different tube set ups? Is there hope for Corns? -Dr. and Mrs. Scholls

take it the right way?...ouch however you take it.... I'll forgive your mild case of Tourette's syndrome. (now I know why those KT88s in your amp seemed a bit greasy...also that rectumfier tube... Just kidding, let's call the whole thing off. -And and And This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 03-05-2002 at 03:02 PM

Chris, Considering the Mullards and the shine etc. you made a cool and decisive move on that one. It is not you who is causing the elevation of prices it is that wickedly tempting "buy it now" feature which is like instant "mainlining" relief from the agony of waiting, but with a price. Mike, You should get fini's secrets for finding audio treasures at bare bottom prices at garage sales and thrift stores. Part of it, I know, is his ability to be an early riser. -Pinned and Needled

PS: I had not yet seen mh's post above while I was originally writing the post (below). After seeing mh's nice photos, I am reminded that in the very early days of radio, circuits were often built on top of a surface like that, with terminals and connections on the top plate or surface. Even the cotton wrapped copper wiring was on top! I loved that old stuff. In some way the amps pictured above evoke the very early days of radio circuits. The wood "signals" us to enjoy the visual beauty and nostalgia of this engaging technology. Here is what I had posted prior: Did you notice on this restoration (same as previously mentioned) eg. in the photo image choice which is bottom left of the six eBay photo image choices. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1335886151 that the restorer put a slice of walnut over the metal in the back where the power cord comes out, probably as a way of redefining the ins and outs of that back panel. This suggests the idea of a wooden frame being around the sides of an already metal frame or chassis. This, of course, makes the panels inconveniently thick, but would still give that aesthetic (which I do not always agree with anyway). My point was that the only thing really justifying that wooden frame aesthetic is the DIY "beating the system" aspect, not really any electronic practicality. That and the fact that wood in itself connotes the era of hand-made craftsmanship as any collector (or user) of antique hand tools will attest to. What has happened is that tube technology is kind of a quaint antique looking thing. Vacuum tubes and all the rest of the related components, color-coded rainbow polkadotted and candy cane striped underside electronic confections etc., are indeed 'beautiful', especially now that it is the "past technology", what McKluhan called looking in the rear view mirror, like why we (this culture) was (is) so obsessed with cowboys etc. The fact that the vacuum tube happens to have also redeemed itself sonically in such a big way in recent years (but remember we are still a relatively small percentage fringe group in the big picture) makes us want to feature it as a work of art. {Some of the most beautiful mellow sounds are made on the vintage Selmer Mark VI tenor saxophone, now in limited supply and commanding sometimes 5-6K dollars, if you can even get one. Serious players have learned that one way to kill the magic of the sound is to have the thing replated, so when you see a Mark VI in person you had no idea how such a tarnished and worn looking instrument could be behind such beautiful sounds. This thought just popped into my head, not sure of its actual relevance here. Is Willie still using that guitar with the hole worn in it?} Oftentimes the technology of yesteryear appears to us as having a contemporary kind of beauty that the socalled "beauty"of the bygone era no longer has {IMO}, it is why the old "turn of the century" steel-cut engravings of science and technology look more contemporary to us now than the same era Victorian steel-cut engravings of the then "artistic" content. The "artistic" stuff is hopelessly dated and irrelevant, the science stuff looks to us now like "art". Tubes indeed are beautiful now (to me they always were, but I was considered a weirdo in the 50s for thinking that) , and because they still today perform a "useful" function, we figure why not feature them in artistic settings in the home (the wooden frame chassis etc.). mdeneen mentioned to me that there are people who collect tubes like someone collects stamps or art, eg. they do not need them for any use particularly. This is effecting the prices of good NOS tubes because the collectors want mint boxes as well. When you think about it, a vacuum tube is like a beautiful science fiction alien castle built inside a bottle. fini's idea of wine bottle tubes is not that far off. With mdeneen's help I bet we could actually build some kind of basic anode or triode and put it together with "ship in the bottle" secret techniques and a vacuum pump ala Tom Edison. Hey, how about a line of energy inefficient wine bottle light bulbs and/or Christmas tree lights. Now were talking. Any marketing wizards around? Next: "Why data is warmer with an all tube computer and why I just put in a bid for a 10K acre building site in Montana." -corked and snorkelled This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 03-04-2002 at 03:32 PM

Here is an example of another approach: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1335886151 Pretty nice, but the guy must be doing this as a labor of love. -bewitched and bewildered

Mike, so you noticed. mostly I feel like a kid in a candy store with something in each hand, chewing on something else, and looking over at what someone else has got that looks good. Part of this is a build-up from years of thinking I could never explore good audio because all i knew was in the "other" ridiculously expensive room at the audio store. now I see there are alternatives and ways of squeezing out more from affordable gear. -audjo and awdiyo

You mean there really isn't an audio related "Buttworth". What was it supposed to be? My mouth is watering for some of that Oak Smoked Linkwitz that fini was talking about. One order should be enough though, that stuff is peppery! -doubled and entendred BTW, I originally asked if anyone has a schematic for the Cornwall crossover, I think mine were from '78 if I am not mistaken, I will have to double check. This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 03-02-2002 at 04:43 PM

Craig, I just wrote a whole reply to you and accidently brushed something on this overly sensitive iMac keyboard and everything disappeared. Darn. I cannot seem to retrieve it. I hate that! It happens frequently. Maybe I should look into getting a different keyboard. The old one I had on the previous computer was much better. This one is boobytrapped! The short of it is the mdeneen is doing some fitting of the new circuit components to the old chassis, apparently a challenge in itself. The driver board will be mounted vertically, and there will be a new rack style face plate to hold better switches and balance the look of the much taller capacitors. The old cage will now be discarded (eBay?). In a week or so I will be up there again ready to start soldering the parts which are still arriving in the mail. -flicked and flacked

Those Wellbourne wood frame chassis not only look real nice but the prices beat the chrome and copper customs. Has anyone built a circuit from scratch using one of those Wellbourne wooden frame chassis? Obviously the reason the Wellbourne chassis are less expensive is because what they are is a flat metal plate screwed to a wooden frame. This is much simpler to tool up for than an all metal chassis. In fact, it is so simple that almost anyone could do it with some fairly basic tools. If you can make a picture frame you can make one of these. And if you cannot, you could have your local frame shop do it for you. There is a bargain scrap yard business around our neighborhood here that has things like sheets of copper or aluminum. Wallah! {on closer reading of the previous post, I guess the fancy French spelling is Viola- fiddlesticks....} I do like these wooden chassis frames, even moreso knowing that I could make one myself for ten bucks. This practical reality, this very fact, then, influences how I preceive the aesthetic. It is not that I need to see wood grain on an "electronic tool" as much as the fact that doing it this way "beats" the system, a system which requires industrial metal forming machinery and a system which is only practical when mass production economics is in the equation. It is the DIY aesthetic. Many of these high-end amp companies, I'll bet, are actually glorified DIY operations put together by very talented individuals, not necessarily corporate entities. I think it would be fun and informative for me to build a coulple of SET monoblocks from scratch , starting with my own home-built <$10 ea. wood frame chassis. I would continue down this economical path by paring down the cost to the list of quality parts necessary to accomplish the goal. I imagine one could put together something decent for far under the $2500 that a souped up set of Moondogs go for these days, plus learning a bunch in the process. I am just dreaming here. Are good circuit schematics readily available? Are there economical parts that can be had for 80% less than the more expensive versions that only deliver a 10% "improvement" or less for that 80% increase, thus making a set of SET monoblocks come in dramatically under the $2500? Maybe it is even possible to put something together for much less than half that $2500 while still using the very best parts. Has anyone gone down this path? mdeneen? All I know is that when I see photos of the underside of these SET amps, I am reminded of those very simple transmitters we use to build (when I was in junior high school) that were fun and easy to fabricate because indeed they were so very simple. One more thing about the DIY equation that I have deduced from years of various DIY projects in other fields of endeavor is that usually for the price of hiring out a process (say, having the metal plate punched for you) one can obtain the necessary set of DIY tools for not much more. Then you have those tools for future projects. Even if the tools cost twice or three times as much, you are often ahead in the long run. I realize this concept is a big "duh", but I thought I would mention it anyway in this context. I also realize this approach is not for everyone, and sometimes it is easier and better all around to just buy the nice retail product and be grateful that some folks have gone to the trouble of putting their cool business together to suppy these things. In that case one should gladly prosper those who provide quality merchandise and/or quality service. Tweach Hizone -mitered and glued This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 03-02-2002 at 04:12 PM

mdeneen, Actually I do possess two or three electricians hole punches in rather large diameters (definitely larger than socket size). First you drill a pilot hole then you put on the punch, the "male" on one side and the "female"on the other. They are bound together on the same bolt. By tightening down on a large nut you eventally pop out a clean cut hole. -popped and riveted

Kelly, Regarding the nostalgia for the old Dynakit, I am tyring to remember how I got into this project in the first place. Wasn't it your suggestion and encouragement to trust mdeneen to do a radical makeover of this amp as a viable alternative to the many other alternatives out there? Man I was all set to buy Moondogs or something. Maybe not really ready to spring for that much bread, but I was dreaming of something that would be a dramatic improvement over the existing Dynakit70. Anyway this is all fun and may even result in a big pay off. I mean in the resulting sound, not the payoff that fini has hinted at in his suggestion that mdeneen is actually running a con here to obtain Dynakit parts to sell on eBay, going from town to town conning Dynakit70 owners on the dream of the mystery circuit (which doesn't actually exist), only to get them to snip out all the old components which he puts in his famous dustpan and telling the 'marks' that he is going to throw them into the garbage, wink wink nudge nudge know what I mean. Actually "mobile" first gets you to believe there can be something better, then they make it seem like they are squabbling over the fine points of audio, in mock disagreements on the forum, but actually they are in cahoots, getting victims to offer up their Dynakits for radical tweaking. The two of them are actually behind all those old vintage Dynakit parts that are being sold on eBay. Hey fini, maybe you are on to something here. I am calling the people at 60 Minutes, these guys should be exposed. I wonder how many Dynakits have been parted out for big bucks on eBay by this slick pair. -pushed and pulled

Kelly, You're correct about the looseness to the analogy with Hawkinson. He does work in several conceptual modes, however, and one piece I saw early on was like the skeleton of an old Christmas tree that he had taken apart and then put back together so all the branches faced in one direction.(hey, like a rectifier...) Anyway the point here is to mention how cool you knew his work. The analogy had something to do with the fact that his concepts were deep but his technique and craftsmanship was homespun and not polished like a Koon's gold plated figurine of Michael Jackson etc. HornEd, Do you have an interesting audio system in the motor home? It would be fun to have a North Bay wine country get together, yes indeed. mdeneen, oops, I forgot to also drop off a bottle of the the Mont Pellier Viognier that I am enjoying chilled as we speak. Next visit for sure. fini, You hit the chrome plated nail on the head with your vintage collectible hammer there talking about the comradery of a weekend garage project. Now that I think of it, this could be an episode of King Of The Hill. Yep..... For some unknown reason images of those 50s cast aluminum plates identifying which hot rod or custom car club one belonged to just popped into my memory. They were usually displayed in the back of the vehicle or up on the back "dash", or whatever you call that part of a car {where they often mount loudspeakers--just to stay on topic). -Strokered and McGurked This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 03-02-2002 at 02:27 PM

Then again, maybe I won't bid on it afterall. -Tomaytoed and Tomahtoed

Good one mobile. You caught me at my most consistent game, which is being entirely inconsistent. Actually I wanted to get the best one possible so I could pretty much do what you did to yours, which was to bring out the very best of what was essentially inherent. I won't say more lest I further add to the mystique you have created around this unit. Maybe after the auction. Remember I didn't call myself Clipped and Shorn for nothing. Now I won't be any more embarrassed by taking yet another clipping and shearing. -shipped and chloroformed -docked and shanghaied -started and stopped

In actuality the now polished old chassis is perfectly acceptable, especially for a "prototype" design. When we go into production on this unit we can utilize the $200 new chrome or shiny copper chassis and pass the expense onto the retail customer by a factor of two eg. adding $400 onto what will need to be a $2000 unit. It is then that we will also be repainting the old transformers and all the rest. We could even have fini fabricate a nice bird's-eye-maple frame to go around the chassis (an extra $350) for that fine fini Finnish finish. The analogy to the over-powered VW was not meant to be one regarding the integrity of design but an attitude. Part of the "bragging" appeal of the amplifier upgrade will be the relatively low cost and the surprisingly good results, but yet will still have the general appearance of the old "humble" Dynakit, not something disguised to pass for what would look like I paid a bunch for cosmetic appeal. That Ferrari at the serious race track does not usually have quite the same appearance as the same "retail" model in the garage of your billionaire friend if you know what I mean. The focus of this prototype is the electronic engineering not its imitation of high-end salesfloor cosmetics. I actually want to see the honest elements of its origins displayed rather than hidden. It is why you strip old oak furniture of its paint that a previous generation applied because of a different aesthetic, one that is now seen as misinformed eg. what did we do before we had the Antiques Roadshow? {Sorry to tell you that your Dynakit would have been worth $$$$$ had you not used the chrome chassis so now it is only worth $$...darn}. Damage is one thing but the simple evidence of minor "stress marks" due to age is not IMHO undesirable and in fact can be considered desirable in this particular instance. Investing $200 in a new chassis for this dynakit remodel is precisely the crux here. If I did that, then the previous comments about how I could have better spent the money on an entirely new unit, and how I could have sold the old Dyna for $350 on eBay, and how old Clippped and Shorn must be insane to undertake this project, might then be true. If this old chassis is worth $100 to some restorer on eBay, why isn't it worth $100 for my "modified restoration"? The aesthetic philosophy here is entirely consistent with a lot of fine art that I respect. We are talking Tim Hawkinson here, not Jeff Koons. -Braqued and Schwittered This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 03-01-2002 at 10:27 PM

Thanks for the chassis info. Just the other day mdeneen said he wondered if anyone was making new chassis for Dynakit rebuild projects and here it is. I sent for their prices. However I am sure the information will mostly make me appreciate the value of the old chassis and certainly make me realize how much I have NOT actually lost by doing this rebuild, ergo, by not buying a new copper or stainless chassis and not buying new transformers I am saving at least $500, so given that I have $300 into the original Dynakit 70, I am ahead by at least $200 at the start of the remodel project. All because I do not feel particularly compromised by forfeiting every aspect of the fetish finish aesthetic. Sometimes when you remodel a house you leave old wood that is still good. It would be embarrassing and silly not too. This issue does bring forth an interesting question regarding the importance of the visual appeal of something that is essentially a tool, in this case an electronic tool for the production of simulated musical experience. If one is building a really high end house must one insist that the impeccably well dressed carpenters use beautiful polished hammers and chrome plated nails? {Actually I know tradesmen who have worked for the super Rich and things almost this insane do go on}. I am too cynical here. Actually the idea of audio equipment as good looking furniture does go way back to the very beginning when Counsel Radios and Victrolas were almost visual works of art and craftsmanship. Corny yes and mostly Victorian or anything but the Modernist aesthetic of 'form follows function", at least until the late 20s and 30s -or was that the 40s and 50s, cannot quite remember. I can just imagine high-end tube amplifiers today looking like they were designed by the builders of the hobbit's house in the Lord Of The Rings movie (rather than the Mad Max movies). Interesting why technology must pander to the tastes of those who do not ultimately embrace it, but then again, I can see the fun in all of this, take the new iMac for example, or generally the marketing attitude of Apple wanting to make the little bundle of technology look like a friendly cute thing not to be afraid of. The fear of "modernism" and the fear of math and science are related to this phenomenon, as is any utopian vision of the world in which the simple logic of technology would have sway over the weird stubborn superstitions and prejudices of us humans. Ever see that old old science fiction movie of H.G. Wells "Things To Come"? This whole trip I have just been on is the theme of that film. Today "postmodernism" has replaced "modernism" precisely because the utopian vision of modernism (eg. technological logic solving the worlds painful and ultimately unneccesary contradictions) was rejected -mostly out of fear and the will of all those Blue Meanies. Which is more important the contents or the container? The human or the "cause" etc.etc.{{{it's the oil stupid}}}}............. "The Emperor's New Amplifier" by -cryptic and cornered PS. how about a tv show where audiophiles compete in building amplifiers like they do in Junkyard Wars. I can just see the teams scrounging around in old electronics junk piles looking for weird transformers and stuff to make speaker horns out of. Wow, this could really be a winner, at least for the folks in this forum. The final test would be a fight over whose sound system sounds better, and whose cables contribute the most to the sound. The participants will all need to have English accents. -tripped and flipped This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 03-01-2002 at 03:57 AM

Good, cause I am going for the Cypress, California HF-81 . Thanks. -Clipped and Shorn

I believe mdeneen has a pp triode circuit up his sleeve and remember he believes the preamp is a serious project as well. We will be modifying a PAS 3 in keeping with the Dynakit vintage dynasty. I was up at the local electronics parts store that also carries all kinds of surplus bargains. Even a new cheesy thin aluminum chassis could be $40-60 depending on size. Factoring in the actual price today of decent transformers and the fact that I can use the perfectly good old EL34s for my keyboard amp and I have pretty much recovered my $300 outlay for the old Dynakit, and hanging out with mdeneen and getting a crash course in DIY audio engineering, priceless. As regards chrome plating the chassis: I did manage to find a bit of the old Amway Chrome and Glass cleaner lying around. Turns out they do not sell that anymore. {I wonder if there is NOS Amway and eBay}. The chassis polished up pretty nice but far from flawless. I gave it the time I wanted and after a point remembered that one of the themes of this project is Practicality. It is shiny enough! I cannot really justify the fetish finish aesthetic. This is a "deceptively menacing street machine", not a "powder puff show stopper". The attitude here is that if the first circuit does not do the trick, we will be willing to hack into it again until we learn what we need to get the most out of it sonically with the Cornwalls, eg. a work in progress if necessary. I am as much curious about the Preamp upgrades now. After going through this whole process I will be seasoned for the next round of experiments which are inevitable. -rooted and mean squared

The real inspiration for this project comes from that humble VW bug that just shut you down at the stop light because under the hood is a blown Chrysler V-8. This was a 50s hot rodder's fantasy and was behind countless modifications of otherwise innocuous looking street machines. We won't be throwing away the cage. mdeneen, don't throw away that dustpan, it might come in handy again. BTW I want Von Dutch pin striping on those transformers and "flames" on the big capacitatortots. -sparked and gapped

IKF, good thoughts. I wasn't going to rush into anything. for that matter, I could leave the Cornwalls intact, and biamp to another cabinet housing some beefier woofers. I'll wait until all the suggestions are in. This is all relatively new to me, and I do understand the controversy around vintage vs. altered, so I would definitely time capsule anything I temporarily removed from the Cornwalls. -Clyde and Hortense

fini, Beaver might be worth it. I might be into some woofer swapping, depends on how those TTs and new belts look . Might be a good opportunity to try out digital techniques. Webpage photos of biamping might be of interest. - expurgated and decrassified This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 02-28-2002 at 12:44 AM

mh, Good thought. I could either fire up the old Nikkon or use this as the final excuse to buy a digital camera, as if depicting all the junk I want to sell on eBay was not reason enough. Any suggestions about the best digital to get these days? -shuttered and exposed