Clipped and Shorn

Maybe this will help: http://cjredwine.blogspot.com/2007/08/how-to-handle-phone-solicitor.html - 08923409234 ^ 873487

I'm flaky.

So here is my plan for Corn redo or makeover with Cab intact, so far: 1. Try out a new B network, A/B compare, speaker to speaker with the old network. 2. If that is satisfactory, build a new B network. 3. If still not quite it, I will replace tweeters and X @ 4500, building new network accordingly. I seem to recall someone mentioning that right above 4500 hz is where some potential problems start with the K55, so that seems like a good plan, and if BEC tweeters handle everything above that, it seems like a possible solution. So is the theory that the frequencies between 4500-6000 hz give rise to the majority of harshness issues here? In the bass dept, how much and what kind of improvement might one expect to get with your woofers Bob? -9239823495 % 9236499

Nice to see a vote for the stock horn and driver, I will know more when I audition the Dean Bees and the SET with Merlin. Who knows, maybe Dean's Bees will be the Bee's Knees, in which case I will stop there. Remember, I am not expecting the ultimate here. -@ & #

Ok, how about that idea of changing the tweeter and Xsing over at 4500. Does your tweeter fit the bill here Bob? So is it just above 4500 where the offending frequencies live? Crossing over at 4500 will anything feel missed or does the new tweet take care of it. Have people enjoyed this approach to a solution? What type of crossover mod is necessary here? -lxcnvb & euyruery

Thanks Mark, I think I see it now. You are the problem solver. Here is yet another known technique and style for making substitutions in the Cornwalls without breaking any of the Klipsch rules: -uoieroiuer & gfhasdhgfa

Seriously, short of adding an Altec Midrange horn and driver on top, what are the optimum improvements that can be done to the Cornwall I while still containing everything in the original cabinet? So far I understand there is the crossover upgrades, the woofer and/or tweeter from Bob Crites, but what about a midrange horn which is the crux of the problem? Is there a practical way to replace the K55/horn with something better which can be easily retrofitted into the existing space within the cabinet? -mnbvcxz & asdfghhjkj

Hey fini, we could use my garage. My mom could help with the costumes. And I have that enormous box full of high voltage TV rectifier tubes! Let's concoct away..... Konconctaway....... -piypuolkpijoulipo & hdwytevyt

To B or not to B, that is the question. To B or to ALK-B, that is the question. To B, or not to B: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the ear to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous squawkers, Or to take tubes against a sea of troubles, And by single-ended end them? To ALK: to recap; No more; and by a recapping to say we end The ear-ache and the thousand natural shocks That audio is heir to, 'tis a consummation Devoutly to be wish'd. To upgrade, to modify; To modify: perchance to remedy: ay, there's the rub; For in that mod of electrons what sounds may come When we have shuffled off this mortal Litz coil,..... excetera eXcetera Nucular Ecksetera ........... -yrueiqo & jgfkal

As soon as you "specify" a category you imply that all other categories at that same level of categorization are not included. For example, if you mention "Tango" as a category you imply that "Mambo" and the other Ten Thousand specific types of dance music are not included in your list. If you list Irish Music as a category, then it is insulting to list the music of other specific countries as only "World Music". So the very premise of your list is faulty because you have mixed together different levels of categorization. That is why I said there is only one category "World Music", other categories would be music from Mars, Neptune, and Uranus etc. that is assuming you meant World=Earth in this case. Your list, of course, is no more a mess than most music stores. -kgbkgbk & vgcdgvcdgv

So would I keep all the values the same on the new parts? Is there a schematic posted somewhere for the Type B. I do realize it could be as simple as physically following the units I remove from the cabinets on hand. By the way, I am currently using this 2A3 amp with my diy Valencias and the problem is not getting volume so much as the harshness that comes with this increased volume (moreso even with the less powerful 45s -- one simply has to remember to be satisfied with the optimum volume level and not let one's musical excitement and enthusiasm escalate those levels), even with the Valencias which use the 811 Altec horns. But, I like your nformed suggestion of keeping the Type B design (since you have knowledge of this situation), building new from scratch with proven boutique parts. What is "wrong" with the old autoformers in there? Just curious, I am definitely open to getting new parts, just wondered if Bob's are an upgrade or if the old ones actually do "wear out". -asdrasrd & trewtrwetr

Listening to Zeno's Alecs....hmmmm goood! Now we need to dispose of his Cornwalls, and if I am not mistaken the clock is ticking, is that right gentlemen? (lot's of cream, lot's of sugar....)

It was mentioned that other people have found that the K-55 squawker (with push-in terminals) to sound a bit harsh. What have been some other solutions to this? I already know about people replacing with Altec components and I am not interested in that route for this project. I just want to preserve the Cornwalls but fixing the harshness. Has anyone replaced this K-55 with other Klipsch squawkers that fit right into the slot? Or is the best way to deal with this, the ALK crossover which we have already discussed. I have not ruled out the depressing yet remote possibility that the ALK crossover may not fix the problem, and someone has mentioned to me an individual who tried the ALK in his vert Corns and consequently rejected them in favor of keeping the old type B. Maybe that had to do with his using McIntosh tube amps and old mono LPs. Currently my plan is to diy the ALK Xvrs (need to economize at this point, and anyway I have some extra solder and plywood scraps on hand) and then use the Corns with SET 2A3 amp. I seem to recall past testimonials by those using essentially this type of gear. Anyone remember if Kelly's (vert) Corns had original or upgraded Xvrs? I have to admit that all these Altec subs for the Klipsch mids is not the best recommendation. I already know how good the Altecs sound (*Bonnie buys crap coffee so I know how good my coffee is since I buy it), and I have them everywhere and listen to them all the time. My goal here is to justify these dmnd Cornwall$, finally. -p[oiuyp[o & ghjrewqhg (*the Bonnie situation)

Thanks Dean, I knew you must have had an informed reason for your decision. I was going to take your advice anyway. -uiotewr & tyuqwe

Remember I was rip vanwinkling for awhile so bring me up to speed: what is the Bob Crites woofer??? Bob, how does someone make a woofer. Fini told me how good you were (he's got your upgrade in his Khorns), but making woofers, wow......didn't there used to be a song about making woofers....oh that was whoopies. -kljasdf kljfdk & jklsadfkjlsadf

"IBSlammin has the cat's meow of network for the Corn. Over the top really. It is an Extreme Slope network designed by Al Klappenberger. It actually isn't a ESN600 but an ESN700. It also has a custom bandpass for the squawker and tweeter filter for 3 way." Al's info suggests the Altec 811B, I am wondering if there were some additonal slight mods to his chart of vallues when using the larger 511 horn instead? -uhisdfuiydsf & ljkfadlkj

With all of those variations available to diy tweak the ALK crossovers for use with different drivers, even Altec 511b horns and 902 drivers, if only there were enough information available to use a substitue for the Klipsch woofer, something like the Altec 416B. If only. Then one would not have to scrounge around for old vintage overpriced Altec and JBL crossovers. There could be a obvious niche market!, eg. to provide a classy ALK type crossover for use with an Altec 416 woofer, a 902 driver with 511b horn, and a JBL 2404H tweeter. I would have bought at least a half dozen by now. Instead, I am bi- and tri- amping and using electronic crossovers, which turns out to be pretty cool in itself, except for running so many amps. Apparently using an Altec woofer is a whole other ball game. I am not enough of an engineer to figure that stuff out, and the genius available at Parts Express cannot or won't do it either. For my diy Valencias, I just ended up scrounging around for vintage crossovers because information or schematics not available for diy crossovers using those components. For the Cornwall upgrade,on the other hand, I will retain all of the original Klipsch drivers, and look forward to using the ALK design Xvrs. -0purtjsgadfnlmascvg & mcvzxmndoi

"The networks are on loan, and were built by Dr. Pipes as the ALK 600 ESN. That ugly stuff sits atop a heavily braced CW bin with BEC cast frame 15" woofers. 511b/902-16a mids and the JBL 2404's on top . My preference is to cross the mids a bit lower, but the ESN 600 has opened my eyes to slopes. As to the design limits of PWK's reflex, I think that I have pushed (with much help) the single woofer Cornwall design to it's max. Make no mistake, they are kicking my a**!" Referring to Al's posted information, I would assume this to be his AP12-600 mentioned below: AP12-xxx crossover network notes ---------------------------------------------------------------- These networks may be built for your own use only. ALK Engineering reserves all rights to build them for sale. This series of networks are intended to be economy woofer / squawker crossovers for use with the ES5800 extreme-slope squawker / tweeter crossovers. They are gentle slope designs having 12 dB / octave slopes on the high output and 18 dB / octave on the woofer. This is because the voice coil inductance of the woofer driver is integrated into the woofer filter as a third inductor forming a 3rd order filter. Therefor the woofer driver should be the Klipsch K33 found in the heritage series speakers (1 mHy in series with 6 Ohms). There 5 designs to choose from: AP12-AK3 - This is to be used only with Klipschorns that have the AK- 3 network installed. The components that are located inside the woofer hatch are be reused as they are correct and are identical to those used in the AP12-350 network design. AP12-350 - This is a 350 Hz crossover intended for the Klipschorn. It may be used in a LaScala when used as a center channel between Klipschorns. AP12-500 - Crossover is at 500 Hz and is intended for the Belle Klipsch or LaScala. AP12-600 - Crossover is at 600 Hz. This one is intended for use in 2- way systems using drivers that will not safely go down to 500 Hz. AP12-700 - Crossover is at 700 Hz and is intended for use with the Altec 811b squawker horn. All of these networks are compatible with the ALK Engineering Trachorn squawker horn upgrade. The network will operate in a 2-way system using the autotransformer to equalize the level to a wide range driver such as the Altec 902-8 with the woofer using the 2-way strap. By removing the 2-way strap an external crossover can be connected to transition between a squawker such as the Klipsch K55V or K55M and a tweeter in a three-way system. The squawker can utilize the same autotransformer. Three-way operation is recommended as not many drivers will operate safely from 500 Hz up.

After installing the new Dean crossover in my 1965 Cornwall it brought it back to life. JJK Were you using the SS amplification when you heard that improvement? That seems like it would be a good endorsement as well since the Corns are supposed to sound so much better with tubes. -[popisjjsanmgk and akjas;dljto

"Anyway, love the ESN for the CW, or "Alcorn" as I call them. The steep slope cures many ills for PWK's reflix. (IMHO) " Sorry to be so dense, but what is ESN ? Is that another term for the ALK crossovers I have been considering? Extreme Slope Networks???? just guessing..... -Sneezed and Coughed

OK, no big surprise, here is what inside my Cornwalls: K33-E K55-V Push Pin type (mounted horizontally) K77 Type B crossover. Everything looks so nice in there, but I am going to assume that a new ALK design crossover will make some important differences. -Klept and Maniaked

Hi Dean, Thanks for the info. I now need to mess up my living room and take the back off of a Corn. Will do. Meahwhile, here is a photo of the sweet little diy 2A3 I was planning to use with the Cornwalls. It was my first from scratch so to speak (many other prior upgrades of Eicos and Heathkits). Worked fine right out of the shute. The 2A3 sounds better through the diy Valencias than the 45s, either can work without changing anything in this design, a tad more power with the 2A3. I got a kick out of using an extra vintage 80 I acquired when restoring an old Atwater Kent radio that fini found at the county dump. c7s

Thanks Dean, I will go with the original ALK type Bs. He gives some sources for the parts including the Litz wire chokes. IB, those crossovers are beautiful. Did you make them? Where did you get the design for using with the Altec and the JBLs? Is that atop a Corn or a Khorn? I will assume those are Cornwalls, then I am wondering what the second crossover if for, the JBLs I presume, so where did the specs and design for that crossover to the JBLs come from? Where did you crossover to the JBL ? 7000hz? WHAT DRIVERS are behind those 511 (?) horns? Also, glad to hear of the positives for the Dean Xvrs. Is that the original ALK design or the revised ALK. See below: From Al's site: Cornwallers: Progress marches on! Even though I am no longer building the Cornwall crossover network, I haven't lost interest in the project. Now that I have the equipment to actually measure the complex impedance of a loudspeaker woofer, I am able to do some fancier designs. The original design works fine, but I have worked up a new woofer crossover section that I think will be an improvement. The old design assumes the Cornwall woofer presents a 4 Ohms resistive load to the network. I no longer have a Cornwall to test, but extrapolating from measurements made on my "Big Heresy", may Belle woofer and on a Khorn by a friend, I have come to the conclusion that it is more like 6 Ohms in series with a 1 mHy inductor. This lets me modify the values in the Cornwall network to compensate, at least in the computer. This will also allow the impedance presented to the amp by the speaker to be changed from an uncertain 4 Ohms to a good stable 6 Ohms. This also will move the crossover from about 750Hz down to 600 Hz. At 600 Hz it is no longer compatible with the Heresy though. It's for the Cornwall (original) only! The schematic of the changed area is mods.gif. Here is the changes: Old Part --> New part -------- --------- 1.3 mHy of #12 AWG --> 2.4 mHy of #14 AWG (It's about the same size). 1.3 mHy of #18 AWG --> 2.0 mHy of #18 AWG. 39 uFd to ground --> 62 uFd to ground (across the woofer driver) 39 uF in parallel with 1 uF bypass --> 30 uFd in parallel with 1 uFd. 5.6 Ohms 20W in parallel with transformer (taps 0-5) --> 10 Ohms 10W in parallel with transformer (taps 0-5) Al K.

I am getting excited now about finally getting these Corns happenin'. I have way too much into them to ever sell. Think I will probably diy a set of Alks, and yes, the back comes off with screws so I have Corn I, that literature is confusing tho. Wonder if I should use Al's 2nd version instructions? Those Altec mods are cool. I really like that JBL tweet myself and have them in three different systems, those are the 'baby bottoms" right? Actually I have an embarrassing number of Altec based systems around here. I like to have something to listen to in all the spaces where I work, but I admit it is excessive and also an excuse to justify buying stuff along the learning curve. Three of my Altec systems use Rane electronic crossovers which makes cabinet designs almost a no-brainer and no expensive passive crossover components. Then, last year, in order to use up a bunch of Altec components bought along the way I made a Valencia system from scatch out of laiminated pine planks that were discounted to almost giveaway at a going-out-of-business sale at the local Yardbirds. This stuff is perfect for my stoneage carpentry skills. Yabba-Dabba-Doo! You just cut and screw together, the material is so thick that there is no issue of what to do with the edges and no need to build a support framework behind the panels. Its like falling off a log. They came out nice. I added the JBL tweeter (2404H) in a separate box which sits on top and also houses all the crossovers (since I needed every bit of net volume in the main cabinet given the amount of that pine material I had). I am going to post this, then go up and take some photos, hopefully to post in an edit later. -Crossed and Shorted

Everything is "World Music", so you only need one cop out category. -Bb7alt