AHall
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Posts posted by AHall
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I hope this strikes up some dimensions of the pieces and new top hats.
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9 hours ago, garyrc said:
My Khorns sound great with a Luxman integrated amp. They sound almost as good with a Yamaha power amp. Ditto with a NAD power amp. They sound very much alike with any of the three, with, perhaps, the Luxman sounding just a bit better.
You are not using an AVR accidentally set to SMALL are you? Or set with a crossover engaged, and set for subwoofer "Yes" ... it's a long shot, but that would seriously cut back the bass.
I try all different combos with and without. When set to large and pure/direct, it sends everything to the mains anyway. Also removed any room corrective dsp etc.
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I plan to remove the "finish" work and have the original decorator underneath. The material used to cover them is barely hanging in there, so it should be easy to strip. Then I will remove the decorator top. Rebuild into a "b" top with riser. Apply factory black cloth.
Ive done a fair amount of research on this, I was just hoping someone had some dimensions since I don't have anything to go off of.
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I'd like to bring this one to the top. Great read
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Sorry for asking :-P
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I have a set of molested decorator khorns that the tops were filled in unprofessionally. I want to begin building a new top bin section with factory specs. I would also like to convert the bass bin to the 60th anniversary filled back style. Does anyone have the information to help me restore these to where they belong?
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7 minutes ago, dtr20 said:
I know that room dimensions can drastically change the performance of a khorn. For whatever reason, everyone is discarding my several experiences with vintage klipsch speakers and avr receivers. Before he spends a million bucks on acoustic panels, false corners, etc, why not try something simple? If he could feel the bass flapping his pants while standing next to the khorn at the previous owners house, why not at his house? I could be wrong, but even with bad room dimensions and room acoustics, he should still feel the bass while he is close to one khorn. Yes, the bass will be lost at the MLP, but not directly at the exit of the khorn.
I had my belles for over a year without hearing how great they could sound. My father and I hooked them up to my Harmon kardon avr, his onkyo avr, and his integra avr, with lackluster results. When a friend of mine brought over a Sony integrated amp from the 70s, the belles came alive. I asked this forum why this occurred, and I was told by the forum members here that the problem was in fact the avr. When I got my khorns, I hooked them up temporarily to my surround sound setup with a denon avr, and they didn't sound good at all, hooked up a vintage stereo receiver and there was a smile on my face.
Again, I'm not saying that there can't be any improvements made for the room, but start troubleshooting with simple things first. What changed? The speakers are the same, the electronics behind it are different. To me, swapping receivers for a test is a lot easier than room treatments. Just a thought
I appreciate everyone going back and forth on this for me. I'll be back home Tuesday, and my new krell preamp will be waiting for me. I have read this preamp is highly regarded in certain areas of my liking. So I'll feed my bob latino st70 with it and hope for better results.
Also before I get too crazy I'll move that piano and allow the sound to travel deep into the dining room and kitchen.
Where the fireplace is, only makes up half of my "back" wall. As everyone can see from the pictures, the house is now wide open, so I'm not sure I am still totally restricted in calling it a 16x18x9 room. Unless the sound sees the half walls no different than full walls. In which I'm doomed. If moving the piano doesn't make any changes and the preamp doesn't make enough change, I'll move them in different places in the house that might be more ideal dimensions. Although they won't stay there permanently. At least I'll know they have the potential to sound decent.
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Thank you. That is the newer board style I believe.
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I wonder if I half walled or removed the entire brick fireplace wall if it would solve my problem.
Your thoughts?
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1 hour ago, Lost240 said:
I completely agree about the room placement and dimensions being the problem. However, you also changed your mids, tweeters AND crossovers. Just by doing that there is no way it would sound the same as you heard it. Try going back to stock in your room and see what happens.
I did do a month of listening in stock form before I changed anything.
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2 hours ago, hsosdrummer said:
Admitting to myself that my Khorns just weren't going to work in my home was indeed painful for me, especially because I'd had such good luck with them in my previous rooms. (One room in particular — in which I formed what was essentially a natural corner by building a 6-foot long wall the same height as the Khorn using 3/4" drywall over a 2 x 4 frame that was nailed into the floor with double-head nails so that the landlord could remove the whole thing by punching through the drywall and pulling out the double-head nails — was where I converted the system from 2-channel to derived 3-channel by adding a Cornwall, a third amp and building a summing network based on info in the Dope From Hope. The whole system sounded absolutely awesome in there — and I mean awesome. The bass seemed to go down to the center of the Earth.)
Once I got over the loss of being able to use my Khorns I was much happier with the results from the Cornwalls. For the year I had the Khorns in the 16 x 16.5 x 8 room we hardly ever listened to music — I was only able to find maybe 8 LPs (out of more than a thousand) that produced decent results in there, and even those had disappointing bass performance. Once we changed to the Cornwall system and rearranged the room we listened to music all the time.
This isn't acceptable
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21 minutes ago, hsosdrummer said:
C'mon, people... Room dimensions, shape and construction are 1000 times more likely to influence a Khorn's bass performance than the amplifier. You can swap electronics for the next 10 years and it won't have anywhere near as much effect on the Khorns' bass performance as would moving the speakers into a different room. That's the difference between what you heard at the seller's house and what you're hearing now, not the amp, not anything else. That's something Khorn lovers have to accept — you're sitting inside of the bass horns, so the room is part of the speaker. Some rooms work better for this than others. Unfortunately, turning a bad Khorn room into a good Khorn room can be expensive and time-consuming, and will almost always involve altering the room's dimensions.
Rooms with identical or nearly identical length and width dimensions will produce a large number of bass standing waves and more importantly, bass nulls — which will be made worse if the room's length and width are integer multiples of the room's height. You can solve standing waves with sophisticated measurement and parametric EQ, but you CAN NOT SOLVE BASS NULLS WITH EQ. You'll run out of amp power trying to do so; all that power will simply be turned into heat instead of sound, and the woofers will exhaust their ability to dissipate that excess heat, likely resulting in driver failure. One thing that can help overcome bass nulls is finding a listening position that's outside of all or most of the nulls, but unfortunately, Khorns don't afford such flexibility in listening position, since you can't move the speakers around the room. I know this all from personal experience...
I love the sound of Khorns. I bought brand-new Khorns in 1978, and they sounded different in each of 4 different rooms that I had them in over a period of 7 years (various dimensions but all were rectangular), with bass performance ranging from pretty good to astoundingly good. Then I moved into a house with a 16' by 16.5' foot living room (8' ceiling) and they sounded terrible (same electronics). Nothing I did made any difference in bass performance (and because I was renting I couldn't make construction changes in the room), so I replaced the Khorns with Cornwalls, which sounded MUCH better in that room (especially in the bass) because I was able to rearrange the room's layout and place the speakers where they generated few bass standing waves and bass nulls (away from the corners and back wall, contrary to PWK's rule that speakers always sound better in corners). I wound up staying in that house for 16 years, during which I sold the Khorns. After that I bought a house with a living room that has only one natural corner and is too small for Khorns (although it is rectangular) and have been there for another 16 years. I expect to live in that house until I die, so even though I love them, no more Khorns for me.
This might be the truth I've been scared to hear.
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Also keep in mind the reason I changed the crossovers is because certain types of music sounded very muffled like a blanket was cast over the horns. Others sounded very good. Since I was on the phone anyway, I grabbed the mid drivers and tweeters. They were fairly inexpensive for the outstanding reviews I read. I didn't buy them to fix my low bass issue at all. I just like to tinker. And have no problem putting the stock units back in.
At this point my avr and music source is a lower quality than the original owner. And the room is "different". The tube amp seemed like a must anyway to really do the khorns justice. It gave a nice smooth top, but gave no positive change to bass.
I have borrowed a friends high end cables and rega CD player. This rules a poor source out. So now once the preamp portion is ruled out, we will know it is the room.
And keep in mind I'm very happy with how these things sound. They are unreal. They just aren't close to the same league as I heard in the demo. The dynamics made those speakers sound 100ft wide and 100ft tall. And have a huge 3 dimensional feel that had the cello sound as tho it was coming from the platform, the violin 5 ft away up front, and various other individual instruments scattered all over this invisible stage. I was truly blown away on the initial listening. Now I have very very loud speakers that are extremely clear and enjoyable, but flat and 2d. And decent bass, but it doesn't punch you in the face or vibrate your pant legs.
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I ordered the Crites crossover rebuild kit. It has a schematic, but I'm wondering if anyone has a picture of how the final product should look. I do better with pictures.
Here's what I have.
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3 hours ago, dtr20 said:
Where are you located? Maybe someone on the forum can bring over some equipment to test.
In the western slope of Colorado. There doesn't seem to be many interested in music here until you get near Denver.
3 hours ago, TomR said:get a good vintage STEREO receiver and you will be shocked at what you hear. It doesnt have to be a lot of wattage either. Then just sit back and enjoy.
Have a suggested model I might keep an eye out for? I'm always in the market for that stuff.
3 hours ago, jason str said:Putting them up on stands will leave it slightly shy in the bass department and why i mentioned the sub is all.
I wasn't trying to be smart. I was just mentioning how impressed I am with their perform for their size. Such an easy listening speaker. Although I have new caps for them so I can make sure they are performing as good as they can. I need to figure out what goes where.
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4 hours ago, JJkizak said:
Those two dimensions are very close to the dreaded 17 feet as I experienced in one of the apartments I was in. The sound was horrible there and when I moved the problem was corrected.
JJK
I sure hope not. I was planning on keeping this house for a while after I finish the remodel.
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Also the room is 18ft wide, 16ft deep(but now extended into the rest of the house as pictured) and 9ft ceilings.
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I've run them in pure/direct. They sound better that way actually. All the listening is in 2ch.
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I feel like I'm missing an inside joke with the bees wax.
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53 minutes ago, jason str said:
First move the KG-4's to a different place, they work best on stands with the horn at ear height with a proper subwoofer.
The KG-4's are blocking the bass bins and the sealed cabinets are likely sucking life out of the bass response, after this step reevaluate the sound and go from there.
Use the current sub with the KG-4's in another room as its never going to blend properly with the Klipschorns.
See above post. The kg4s aren't usually in there. Nor do they really need a sub.
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Also I don't normally run anything by the khorns. I was just playing with my new kg4s I scored for $120. And might I add they absolutely rock. And sound stage better than the khorns. I find myself double checking that the center channel isn't on over and over. They are so "3D" I absolutely love them.
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How does a guy correct his room so khorns sound as they sound? I've seen the acoustic panels, but I don't want to fill the room with those ugly things.
Cut your losses and add a smooth transitioning tight 10" sub?
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1 minute ago, dtr20 said:
Is the receiver an avr? If so, that's probably the issue.I hooked up my khorns for grins and chuckles to my denon avr being driven by a Yamaha m40 120 wpc amplifier. The sound was lifeless. I hooked up a vintage stereo receiver, and it was amazing. I love my khorns.
Yes it is an avr. A mid level ~$1200 unit. Very high regarded in performance and DAC.
It sure would be wonderful if removing it from the equation fixes my issues.
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Interesting. I have a bunch of this around me. Could be a fun project over the 16ga generic cable I'm using currently.
I ordered the Crites crossover rebuild kit. It has a schematic, but I'm wondering if anyone has a picture of how the final product should look. I do better with pictures.
Restoring Heritage Labels
in Technical/Restorations
Posted
Do you have any write ups on restoring horns? I'm gathering my research and enjoy reading how everyone does it. And I need new top cabs with enclosed back info.