ODS123
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Posts posted by ODS123
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51 minutes ago, Deang said:
Your Cornwall III's are braced. I see a Plywood motorboard, but the rest looks like MDF (which helps).
It's not a "myth", it's from "Building Loudspeakers 101". Smaller speakers don't suffer from the problem as much because the panels are smaller.
Cornwall III's being built. Notice the braces.
I think we have a few thousand posts on this forum on how to brace Cornwalls.
Thank you Dean, I stand corrected.
What I should have said is that the "rap" test is an audiophile myth. I have encountered many speakers that fail this rather non-scientific test yet have no audible resonances.
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1 hour ago, Deang said:
All of these speakers fail the simple knuckle rap test. There is no internal bracing, and internal resonances cause the panels to vibrate. You can lay your hand against a panel and feel it vibrating, and a moving box is not silent. Naturally, it’s more noticeable when you turn it up. The larger the panels, the more you can “hear the box”.
another audiophile myth. I've heard numerous unbraced speakers that did not exhibit audible resonances. ..Including my current CWIII's
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My CWIIIs are about 14' apart and I sit facing forward about 16' from each speaker. I've found slight toe-in (12 - 15 degrees I'm guessing) to be the best compromise b/w resolution and soundstage.
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18 minutes ago, kink56 said:
Hey I am going to remain silent for awhile. Maybe the OP will magically return! 😆(for those conspiracy theorists on this thread)
I'll add that I did download the Emiliana Torrini Song (Birds) you mentioned and while I did hear the rumbling (which I believe Torrini intended) I did not hear the resonance. I played it three times at increasing volumes and couldn't hear a resonance. Either the Cornwall IIIs don't have this issue, or I'm blessed by exquisite amp/speaker synergy: meaning my McIntosh Integrated exhibits a -7db 150hz drop-off to offset my speakers 150hz +7dB hump.
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On 1/12/2019 at 8:13 AM, Dave A said:
On day twenty three
What shall we now see
OK OD question for you. Advice given is more money spent on speakers than the rest. Why did you not follow your own advice? Very confusing for people to read one thing and then see you did another with your equipment list.
Been away for weekend, sorry for slow reply.
I think I've covered this, no?? Features, build-quality, feel, aesthetics...., etc.. are all good reasons for spending more. Better sound is not.
Here's my review of my amp on audioasylum. (under "hifi heretic")
https://www.audioasylum.com/messages/amp/180899/review-mcintosh-ma6600-integrated-amplifier-ss
I wouldn't change a word if I wrote the review today EXCEPT I would add that the remote absolutely sucks... It has the same feel and build quality as my Verizon top-box remote except it has a rubberized coating which is starting to get sticky and peel. Considering the build quality of the amp I would have expected much better for the remote. Thankfully, Mac has promised me a new much nicer remote once they arrive in April. ..No charge.
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12 minutes ago, Don Richard said:
Here's the rub - if you do not hear the same orchestra with the same conductor in the same hall in which the recording was made, it is not a valid comparison either.
And not to put too fine a point on it I'd add "and on the same day." Because our hearing changes day to day based on allergies, colds, recent exposure to loud noises and so and so on. No, these changes might not be huge but when you're talking about hearing faint nuances that aren't measurable, I'd wager it's enough.
Which is why the idea that one must hear an amp for days and days or weeks and weeks before being able to truly distinguish from another is so hard to believe.
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47 minutes ago, Deang said:
I'm sure it is.
I mentioned earlier in the thread, wondering what would happen if someone used a very small sample of something, like a cymbal crash or a 10 kHz test tone, and just went between A and X, and never on B.
Well, as you opine on that I think I can safely say to beginners that I’ve proved my point...
That IF differences between amplifiers exist they are apt to be soooooo small that you have unclaimed $10k awards; dozens of people on websites endless debating their existence and importance; and manufacturers who never provide ANY outcome data from listening trials.
So, the moral of the story as I see it: Spend most of your money on speakers... But be sure to leave enough left over for an amplifier that has the build/feel you want, the features you want (like tone controls, ability to drive a 2nd pair of speakers, mono switch, auto-on,etc.. whatever matters to you) and has enough power to drive your speakers to the levels you desire without clipping. Beyond that, set aside concerns that you’re missing out on some faint indescribable, immeasurable audio magic, because chances are — you’re not.
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47 minutes ago, Deang said:
And please stop saying that no one is saying that all amplifiers sound the same. If the argument is that people can't tell the difference between amplifiers in a DBT, then for all intents and purposes - amplifiers sound the same. To say otherwise is being either disingenuous or obtuse.
Why shouldn't he be setting the record straight? It's true NO ONE is saying all amplifiers sound the same. That would be ridiculous b/c it's always possible someone's amplifier is either not working properly, driven to clipping, or was engineered to roll-off at a certain frequency. That's why the "engineered to be linear and operating within it's design limits" or whatever.. matters. So no, don't stop saying it. ...It makes it easier for you to attack the claim, but it's not what is being said.
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26 minutes ago, Deang said:
No, you weren't. You've been lurking, trying to decide when it would be a good time to jump back in ...
Your hostility certainly doesn't reflect well on you.
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14 minutes ago, glens said:
The aspect I find most humorous about this whole topic (expanding it to include more of the "audiophool" kind of stuff - 'test/measurement results be damned, I know what I know') has got to be stuff like 1-gauge cables perched on glass insulators perched on elastomer whatevers and/or how altering the lay of leads makes them require time to "come around".
And this has an unintended consequence. ..A couple who enters an audio store with the intention of buying a pair of nice floor-standing speakers and something to power them sees the garden hose thick speaker cables and lifters and is met by a Salesperson who tells them "you should allocate 30% of your spending on interconnects and cabling" may well end deciding , "Well, this ain't for us!" and leave with nothing and instead go on to Amazon to order a Bose SoundDeck or a Sonos set-up.
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5 minutes ago, glens said:
I buy that one person can get as much enjoyment out of hearing a piece they like on a $25 mono table radio as another does on a 25.6-channel multi-million-dollar system in a perfectly-constructed-and-equipped habitat.
Agreed. ..My grandparents enjoyed music as much or more than anyone I know and listened to it on an all-in-one compact system (philco, I believe?) set on the floor of their living room. And both wore hearing aids to boot.
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I've been away from this thread for a few days.... After catching back up it seems like what a beginner might glean from this is buy an amp that is engineered to be linear while driving your speakers to desired levels AND buy an external equalizer to adjust to taste.
These boutiquey amps that some people gravitate to aren't doing anything magical. They are simply affecting the signal in a manner that they find preferable. ..No different than an equalizer. ..Or, for those not wanting the extra clutter and fuss. ..Tone controls may suffice.
So...... pretty much what I've been saying all along about how beginners might approach buying their gear.
Remember, most people buying hifi are NOT looking for a hobby or a lifestyle, they're looking for a way to fill a room with music.
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31 minutes ago, joshnich said:
And Borsendorfer was bought by yamaha!
The story behind my Schimmel is actually pretty interesting. I was in the market for a piano and went on a "piano quest". I should note that in my 20's I thought that being a piano tech would be an awesome way to make a living. I worked with a local tuner and actually attended the Piano Technician Guild convention. I rebuilt a few pianos and learned a lot. I can still do some rudimentary work on my piano. I learned pretty quickly that being a piano tech was not going to be my lifes work! But I did learn a lot about pianos. There was a pretty large piano retailer - Colton Pianos - that was the importer for Schimmel. Colton also sold inexpensive pianos from China under the Schafer and sons brand. Schafer was his house brand. In an effort to build the brand reputation for Schafer, he had Schimmel grands branded Schafer for pianos that were on stage - either in a performance venue or even for Television. I happened upon a listing in LA for a 6'10 Schafer & Sons and knew that it had to actually be a Schimmel - Schafer never made a 6'10". I went to LA to check it out. Yep it was a schimmel. I contacted the factory in Germany and confirmed. Because the fall board had Schafer and Sons engraved on it as well as stenciled in large type on the side ( which I easily removed) I paid 8K for a piano that at the time was worth over 50K. Schimmel offered to send me a replacement fall board for a couple hundred bucks but I never got around to ordering it. Long answer to the question on the age of the piano. If I recall corectly it was built in 71.
So if you see a Shafer and Sons 6'10" grand know that it is actually a Schimmel and one of the worlds finest pianos!
Beautiful indeed! Question: is that a Prathermade LP rack in the other room? https://www.prathermade.com Do you like it?
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2 hours ago, Tizman said:
Yes. He probably gave her a list of the must have features he and every beginner audiophile require, and there is no other amplifier with that feature set. So McIntosh it was. I’m pretty sure that my wife loves me, but not that much. Let’s hope all the beginners out there have thoughtful and generous wives as well. Otherwise, no crucial mono switch, metres and balance knob for them. Oh well, what to do? At least every amp sounds the same and they won’t miss out on audio quality...
sheesh, again the hostility....
No, I didn't give my wife a list of features I wanted, she simply let me pick it out.
My recommendation to beginners was to get an integrated or AVR that can drive their speakers to desired levels without strain and has the feature set they want. The feature set they want and are willing to pay for will be different than mine.
My first component was an NAD 7250PE integrated amplifier. I used it for 12 years until it conked out. It was terrific. It had a balance control, tone controls and, yes, a mono switch. I grew to appreciate all of them. Today, If I was younger and looking for an amp and didn't have much music dating back to the early days of stereo, I probably wouldn't care much about a mono switch. My oldest son keeps asking for integrated amp recommendations and I exclude mono switch b/c he would never use it. As for the wattage meters and input leveling they are definitely luxuries, I went for years without them. At no point did I suggest to beginners that they were essential features. ..And yes, the wattage meters were indeed helpful when driving my far less efficient Paradigm S8's, but not essential. As for tone controls and balance control - yes, I would recommend them to everyone, but the choice of course is theirs. ..And they can be found on many affordable integrateds and nearly all AVRs..
And you are incorrect, several Luxman and Accuphase integrated amps have meters, and a mono switch (on the remote of the Luxman). ..Not sure about input leveling.
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4 minutes ago, Tizman said:
ODS123: What is a “modern amplifier designed to be linear”? In your words, not Clark’s words, and with the specs required by your Objectivist stance. Clark’s criteria include amplifiers that you have rejected, and slagged, in this thread, so referring to the Clark test link doesn’t cut it as a reply. Beginners everywhere, and ignorant somewhat more experienced folks like myself, await your reply with baited breath.
I can’t believe you forgot your Cornys’ birthday by the way. Unforgivable. Hey! What’s that dog doing back there behind the Cornwalls?
I really have no idea what you're talking about. Are you making an issue of the fact that at times I said "modern s/s" amps? Well, maybe, but in other references to this challenge I also mentioned tube amps qualified so long as they made his criteria. ..Move on to another subject Tiz. You're big "gotcha!" isn't much of one. And my Corny's say "Thanks!"
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22 minutes ago, pzannucci said:
Do you live in a swimming pool?
Maybe you want to take them apart and paint the insides with urethane or something.
Egads, no! ..thankfully. You see even though the vast majority of speakers these days - including some very very expensive ones - are made with MDF, some people here have denigrated my CWIIIs because, they argued, the best Klipsch's are always made from glorious 7-ply birch. So strong were their opinions on the matter that they warned my speakers would not hold up over time even though they weren't engineered to be dragged from rock gig to rock gig, hung in amusement parks, or bus/train stations, like Klipsch's Pro Series were.. ..So I'm now trying to appreciate each and every day with them because one never knows how long they'll hold up. I think the odds are in my favor though because every speaker I've ever had was made from MDF, each lasting years and years , AND a quick look at Audiogon one will find plenty of 30 year old speakers made from MDF that look perfect. So I'm optimistic.
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57 minutes ago, Tizman said:
I went to web sight and read what was there. That’s not what I asked you. Clark’s criteria include amplifiers that are not included in YOUR criteria. So what are your criteria? Specifications etc. Once again, define “a modern amplifier engineered to be linear”. You are the one giving advice, and although you refer to it repeatedly, your advice doesn’t correspond to the Clark test criteria. Pointing to the test is not answering the question posed to you. Again.
From: http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/rcrules.htm
7. All amps must be brand name, standard production, linear voltage amplifiers. This does not exclude high current amps. Amps can not be modified and must meet factory specs. They must be "car audio amplifiers designed to be powered from a car's electrical system.". See NOTE 1 below.
NOTE 1 (from conditions 2 & 7) This test mentions 12v and "car" amps only. The test originally began with home/studio type amps and was revised in 1994 for the car audio industry. This version dated 2005 is again expanded to include 120 Volt home/studio/commercial type amps.
The "modern" stipulation - which didn't originate with me - is from other summaries of the test found on the web. If I can find one, I will. However, I'm not sure how this undermines anything!. If anything, it looks like R. Clarks criteria may be even looser - so use that if it suits you!
That said, one can infer from what's stated above that if the test originated in 1994 and the rules required that the amps be std. production, etc.. that amps 10 or 15 years old at the time probably met the "modern" criteria.
Ok? Now, will you answer the question I posed to you, Dave and Dean?
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4 hours ago, Tizman said:
It appears that ODS123 went to bed without reporting on the state of his Cornwall III speakers. I hope they are okay...
( Tizman, thanks!)
I feel guilty that an important day passed 27 days ago without being acknowledged, my MDF edition Cornwall III’s first birthday! I am very grateful that they managed to keep their structural integrity despite being moved around countless times to optimize their sound. Also, though we have taken the precaution to add 2 dehumidifiers to the room, there was still the ever present risk that moisture would intrude past the veneering and cause the speakers to swell to horrifying proportions. Thankfully with prayers and luck, this didn’t happen! ..So here they are today, enjoying some cake and filling our house with the forever awesome "Talking heads: Stop Making Sense."
Happy belated birthday Corny’s!! (seen here enjoying some birthday cake).
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12 hours ago, ODS123 said:
So if you are a believer in the house sound and signature sound concept of amplifier selection, what do you think of this very possible theoretical conversation between a customer and a salesperson at an Audio store. What would you tell the customer?? Yes, this is a straw man, but it's not an unlikely scenario.
Cus: “Wow, there are a lot of amplifiers in this room - why so many choices? is it just a difference in how powerful they are?”
SP: “No, it's because they all have their own sound!”
Cus: “Wow, so if I hooked one up after you leave the room could you tell me which is playing without looking when you came back in?
SP: “Well, yes, but it would take time - could be hours, maybe days before the amp would reveal itself through its unique signature and feel. I would know which because each differs in how it connects me emotionally with the music.”
Cus: “You mean, you couldn’t just tell me now?
SP: “No, because your question makes me too uneasy to be receptive to the amps unique signature.”
Cus: "Wow... and what about Cd players? Those too??
SP: "Yes, those too AND all of your speaker cables and interconnects as well. ..They all have their own signature. And they all could take a while to reveal their unique strengths to you."
I think most beginners looking for a sound system to enjoy with their existing cd and music file collection could very likely think, “Ok, that seems nutty…I think I’ll just go look at a Bose SoundDeck or a Sonos system.”
Meanwhile, maybe Diz, Dean or Dave (or anyone of course) would care to answer the above? I'm convinced that our hobby is hurt by it's lack of validity controls. Customers encountering this sort of interaction are more apt to just give up on buying a dedicated audio system and instead gravitate to all-in-one table top or sonos-like streaming systems. Not that those are bad - they're not - but they will not keep this hobby alive.
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It seems Diz, Dean and Dave are hellbent on getting this thread shut down. I seem to have a struck a nerve with you three.
Guys, I'll reply to your posts so long as their pertinent. It's not a problem if they're snide, snarky or even nasty, so long as their relevent.
Tiz.. From Richard Clark's website. There's a great deal of Q&A from RC to critics such as yourself. I suggest you go to the website and read for yourself before further hectoring me on this point.
Amplifier Comparison Test Conditions
1. Amplifier gain controls - of both channels - are matched to within +- .05 dB.
2. Speaker wires on both amps are properly wired with respect to polarity. (+ and -)
3. That neither amp has signal phase inversion. If so correction will be made in #2 above.
4. That neither amp is loaded beyond its rated impedance.
5. That all amplifiers with signal processors have those features turned off. This includes bass boost circuits, filters, etc. If frequency tailoring circuits cannot be completely bypassed an equalizer will be inserted in the signal path of one of the amps (only one and the listener can decide which) to compensate for the difference. Compensation will also be made for input and output loading that affects frequency response. Since we are only listening for differences in the sonic signature of circuit topology, the addition of an EQ in only one amps signal path should make the test even easier.
6. That neither amp exhibits excessive noise (including RFI).
7. That each amp can be properly driven by the test setup. Not normally a problem but it is theoretically a problem.
8. That the L and R channels are not reversed in one amp.
9. That neither amp has excessive physical noise or other indicators that can be observed by the listener.
10. That neither amp has DC OFFSET that causes audible pops when its output is switched.
11. That the channel separation of all amps in the test is at least 30 dB from 20Hz to 20kHz.
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1 hour ago, Dave A said:
I want a link. I want to see it for myself. Verification is good. I would also like your concise definition of linear and remember we can put sentences into Google and see if it is primarily your own words or lifted from someone else. The big problem with the internet today for people who love unsubstantiated claims is we can check.
Um... It's in the same issue of Stereophile (The latest - Feb., 2019) in which the 1st Watt appears. I'm looking at the page right now. Do you want a digital pic?
Pg., 67. In John Atkinsons review of Ayre's new EX-8 Integrated. Top of pg. under heading "Listening". Very first sentence. "Ayre recommends 100-500 hours of break-in for the EX-8."
Wow that amplifier must be some incredibly exotic device, no? ...Even more exotic than all the equipment you see in hospitals?? Do you think MRI machines, CT Scanners, electrocardiographs, surgical robots, etc.. all need 500 hours of use before they work properly? I mean, don't they also have scads of electronic components that need to "settle"? .. Sheesh, I sure hope not.
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55 minutes ago, TubeHiFiNut said:
Nice timing on the article.
From what I have seen, great designers (like Nelson Pass) use every tool they have at their disposal during the design process - including their ears.
Yes, I read that too. "He uses ABX testing to understand how experienced listeners perceive distortion, and the role the that distortion might play in helping our brains reconstruct the original musical event." Sounds impressive, if a bit nebulous. So, what was his conclusion? Do people reliably prefer distortion? How does this square with other studies on distortion in musical playback??
Nonetheless, it's a shame that if he had equipment and experienced listeners in place for his ABX testing he didn't take the opportunity to do blinded AB testing to see if his experienced listeners could reliably distinguish and PREFERRED his newer amp to either previous 1st Watt models or other brand amps. As I've said before, if it reliably sounds more music-like to a group of people, why not say that in your ads and cite your trial data.
In another review, Ayre Acoustics recommends 100-500 hours of break-in time. This is remarkable to me! Can you imagine buying any other kind of appliance and reading in the manual that it won't work as well as possible for 500 hours!?
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So if you are a believer in the house sound and signature sound concept of amplifier selection, what do you think of this very possible theoretical conversation between a customer and a salesperson at an Audio store. What would you tell the customer?? Yes, this is a straw man, but it's not an unlikely scenario.
Cus: “Wow, there are a lot of amplifiers in this room - why so many choices? is it just a difference in how powerful they are?”
SP: “No, it's because they all have their own sound!”
Cus: “Wow, so if I hooked one up after you leave the room could you tell me which is playing without looking when you came back in?
SP: “Well, yes, but it would take time - could be hours, maybe days before the amp would reveal itself through its unique signature and feel. I would know which because each differs in how it connects me emotionally with the music.”
Cus: “You mean, you couldn’t just tell me now?
SP: “No, because your question makes me too uneasy to be receptive to the amps unique signature.”
Cus: "Wow... and what about Cd players? Those too??
SP: "Yes, those too AND all of your speaker cables and interconnects as well. ..They all have their own signature. And they all could take a while to reveal their unique strengths to you."
I think most beginners looking for a sound system to enjoy with their existing cd and music file collection could very likely think, “Ok, that seems nutty…I think I’ll just go look at a Bose SoundDeck or a Sonos system.”
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18 minutes ago, Tizman said:
So what is your problem with tube amps?
So long as they are and remain linear while driving speakers to desired levels I personally think they're fine. ..But if they sound like S/S then why bother with the hassle/ cost of adjusting/ replacing tubes.
Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club
in General Klipsch Info
Posted
Just did. I would argue that a speaker needs to be braced only to whatever extent necessary to ensure that resonances are not audible while speakers are driven within design limits. Beyond that, add'l bracing is superfluous. PWK must have felt the same b/c NONE of Klipsch's speakers do all that well in "The knuckle test".
Knocking on my Paradigm S8s or Vandersteen 3A Sigs sounded like knocking on a cinder block - they were THAT inert. ..And while neither had audible resonances neither do my Cornwall IIIs (MDF edition) which sound a bit like knocking on a cardboard shoe box.