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Different strokes for different folks, I guess. No regrets on my end on the planning, research, and execution of my modifications. For me, the results are what matters and I am certainly happy with those. Glad it worked out for you!

This is why it is always best to only do one speaker at a time, so you can compare, and be sure your improvements, are really improvements! My experience with upgrading speaker crossover capacitors is this, Poly Caps are the brightest, followed by Mylar, and then by Non Polar Electrolytics. ERSE Audio www.erseaudio.com makes 2 different Non Polar Electrolytic Capacitors, one with more dielectric loss then the other. The MORE Lossy caps they sell make a speaker more "mellow" sounding. Poly Caps are the least lossy of all Caps, and also the brightest. Many Horn Speaker lovers like paper in oil capacitors, for their mellow sound. They too are a very lossy capacitor. I did many many crossover capacitor experiments, especially on some old Klipsch Original Forte's. The original Forte is bright sounding, not hard, just bright, and overly vivid and detailed. With several different brands of expensive poly caps, they got even brighter. Mylar mellowed them out, a little. But the ERSE Non Polar Electrolytics "tamed" them down even more. This taught me something, that Poly Caps are not always the best choice for a bright sounding speaker. Unless, you want that bright sounding speaker to be even more bright sounding:) But, if you have spent too many years in front of very efficient speakers, played very loudly for extended periods of time, and you have some age on you Grandpa, your hearing might be compromised ? In that case, a bright speaker may sound right to you. My good friend is a retired Fireman. He is 62 years old. He craves this bright sound, because of all his years on a Firetruck, exposed to loud Sirens. Here is a link to the very linear, but higher loss ERSE Non Polar Electrolytic Capacitors http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/NonPolarElectrolytic10DF In every bright speaker I have put them in, they sounded better to me then any other capacitor, except maybe very expensive Paper In Oil Capacitors. I recently re did a pair of Cornwall II's that had the Solen Poly Caps in them. They sounded a tad bright and edgy with the Poly Caps, even when driven by Tube Amplifiers. These very very inexpensive ERSE Caps smoothed them right out.

Yes, as long as he did not get stuck with version 3's! Roy Delgado told me they changed driver suppliers on the version 3's. The heavier cones damp the midrange more, according to Roy. The version 3 has cheaper, lighter drivers. I believe either Fostex or Foster of Japan made the Version 1 and 2 Drivers in the CF Series. It was a different vendor that made the version 3 drivers.

They are the rarest of the rare, the most desirable of the desirable, Klipsch Epic version ones! You can drop them off over here, anytime you like:)

Cool! Let all of us know how you like the changes it will make in the sound ? I just got my new Biwire Cables by UPS today, so I have to get get them in my system.

I just meant, don't get "crazy" with the bracing and damping. One of the very best sounding CF 4 Version 2's I ever heard had some round wood dowel braces added right behind each woofer. He used some sort of outwardly expanding screw mechanism installed on the round wood dowels he said. Sort of like a shower curtain is adjusted to stay up. The wood dowels installed behind the woofers, besides being a brace, also acted as diffusers for the woofers he said! As you know, in the CF 3 and CF 4, the woofers are also midranges. They play well up into the midrange. Diffusion of the back wave of a midrange driver is a well known means to lower coloration, especially if used with good damping material. Whatever......, it sure sounded very nice!

Having Bob Crites replace the caps and such. Nothing major... Gives me some time to do some bracing of the cabinets and some better dampening in them also. Bracing and damping material takes up space inside of the box and can change the box tuning, be careful!

I have many many pairs of speakers, cause I get bored I guess ? I find no one pair of speakers ever completely satisfies me, for long.

I did chuckle a little as I was writing my first response for the very same reason. Funny thing is, this thread really does have alot more information than calling Klipsch right now will provide (at least in my experience). They really don't have a lot of information on the Epics anymore. So, I can see for someone, like me, that just bought a 3 or 4 how valuable reading this thread would be. They really don't pop up on the market very often...at least that I've seen. I've got mine apart right now with the networks off for a rebuild and the boxes ready for some bracing and dampening work. Looking forward to getting everything back and put together again. What are u having done to the crossovers, and who is doing it ?

My Lord, this old thread just refuses to Die! I am glad too! I remember when I got my first CF series spekers, and in my excitement, started this thread. I STUPIDLY sold my CF 4 version 1's, but one day, I will find another pair. Tell me, are any of you biamping the CF 3 or CF 4 speakers, like I suggested ? They really sound best IMHO, that way. If anyone is looking for a good sounding cheap speaker of high efficiency that will knock down the walls, and sounds very audiophile like, let me suggest The Cerwin Vega VS 150, until you can get your hands on a CF 3 or CF 4. I know, I know, Cerwin Vega sucks, right " Yes, most of them do, but not their old flagship, the Cerwin Vega VS 150 It is a warm, rich, musical sounding speaker of great bass power, and high efficiency. It will "hold you over" until you can get your hot little hands on a CF 4 or CF 3. I just threw this in the thread, because I have got several emails asking me to suggest a speaker that is readily available used, until someone can find a CF 3 or CF 4. LOL, I think, because of this thread, I have "driven up the price" of the CF Series speakers ? It is not easy to find a CF 3 or especially a CF 4 version 1 anymore and you must pay all the money. Cerwin Vega VS 150's can be found under 300.00 all day long. I also like ORIGINAL Klipsch Forte's! For a small speaker, they will rock your world, and can shake a room with deep bass. They are a little bright, not hard, just very vivid and detailed. Best to use a tube amp with these. But one of my very favorite speakers, besides Electro Voice Interface D's that you will never find, are Version 1 Klipsch CF 4's passively biamped.

Yes, it would appear so! But call Klipsch to be sure!

Great Work Khornbred !!!!!!!! Even Roy Delgado did not recall, nor could he find notes to give me regarding the crossover change.

I don't remember what color my Horns were. I sold all my CF 3 and CF 4 series speakers awhile ago. Honestly, I wish I had the CF 4 back! When biamped, the CF 4 series 1 or even the series 2 (it can have the longer ports put in it) CF 4's are one of my all time favorite speakers. You know how us audiophiles are, we sell perfectly good speakers, in hopes of buying a better sound. This does not always work out. LOL, there are a pair of the little CF 2's for sale on Ocala Florida Craigslist (I am down in Tampa) for only 250,00. They are Black too! I never owned CF 2's, I wonder how they sound ? I think they have a different compression driver in them ? I JUST missed a pair of CF 4's here llocally, but I always keep my eyes out for them!

Good Post Brian! It is hard to believe this thread is still going, since I started it some years ago! The info you posted might keep someone from buying a pair of the dreaded version 3 speakers ? Ray Delgado of Klipsch kind of warned me that the Version 3 of the CF 4 and CF 3 had different woofers in them from another vendor, and were not as good. One must remember that the twin woofers in both the CF 3 and CF 4 also reproduce a good amount of the midrange! I do have to wonder though, about the new horn material in the Version 3 ? I wounder IF it is better then the Gray Horns in the version one > IF it is, then version one owners could simply buy the newer horns from Klipch, and possibly improve their speakers ?

IF you ever come across a pair of CF 4's, any BUT the series 3's, at a sensible price, Grab them! The CF 4 series 1 is the one of choice, of course, but a CF 4 series 2 can quite easily made a Series 1, by simply buying the longer ports from Klipsch. But in the series 3, Klipsch changed the woofers! And, according to Roy Delgado, NOT for the better either! Being a long time Klipsch owner, of many different models of Klipsch, I did all the "required mods" to all the CF 3's and CF 4;s I have owned. You know what they say "Hang around a Barbershop long enough, and you will get a haircut"! This forum is full of tweakers, hang around here long enough, you will wind up tweaking! I tried Rope Caulk on the horns, and even went into the compression driver to experiment with felt pads under the dome. Hell, I even applied damping to the woofers cast frames! However, once I was able to lower the level of the horns, I found all that chit to be totally not needed, and in the case of the rope caulk on the horns, it actually HURT the sound! I did use thin gage solid core wire for the Horns/Amp connection, and good old 12 gage Home Depot wire on the woofers. I was planning to update the crossover capacitors, and use Solen or Blue Clarity Caps in the crossover one day, but to be honest, they sounded so good I just enjoyed them, once they were biamped. I also planned to try some silver litz wire on the horn to amp connection, but the solid core wire I used sounded good, and felt no pressing need to do so. Oh, I forgot to add, I also listened to them non biamped, and swapped each of the compression drivers to the other speaker. Then, I listened some more, being VERY careful to watch the volume. This is an easy to do tweak I almost "automatically" do to many speakers I own, soon after I buy them. It costs nothing, and great improvements can often be had, just by doing this. These drivers VARY. You may have a compression driver that is .5 db hot. If this driver is left in a speaker that also has a woofer .5 db or more Hot, the result is often a hard bright sound. If anyone wants to do this, be sure and listen to the speakers w/o the horns level lowered, so you can clearly hear the differences in each compression driver. OH, and before I forget, be careful! I was told years ago Klipsch was nearly OUT of CF 3 woofers, so if you Pop one, you are basically screwed! Same with the compression drivers, they are not cheap!

I am getting a Bit confused in this thread. ARE you biamping the CF 3's, or not ? The other guy in this thread NinaBeemer took my advice about the CF 3's and biamped them. He seems like a very happy camper. I have owned many pairs and version of CF 3 and CF 4. The speakers are capable of a warm rich musical sound w/o harshness, IF you biamp them. This is the sound the other guy is experiencing, since he implemented my suggestions for them. I have also owned Original Fortes. I enjoyed them too. They have more LOW Bass then the CF 3's, and will shake a room. I found them in my room to be brighter then the CF 3's. Not hard and bright, just more "vivid". I can not live with Stock CF 3's, unless they are biamped. The original Forte's really want, and like, a Tube amplifier. I used a Jolida Integrated Tube Amp, and a Dared pair of monoblocks, with the little Dared tube pre amp on them, and a Tube DAC. I also re did the capacitors in the crossovers. They really liked The Blue Clarity Caps I tried the best out of several different capacitors. Tell me, have you biamped the CF 3's yet, and if not, why ?

Well, now you are finding out that the level of the Horns was the major problem, like I have been trying to say.

Good advice Moray, especially about the Pro Amps, and THEY all seem to have level controls too! The designer of the Klipsch Epic CF Series Speakers, Roy Delgado, uses a Yamaha Integrated amp at home he told me. I ran mine using the little Parasound HCA 500 amp on the horns Moray, and on the woofers I think it was a Hafler 500. I am not nuts about Hafler 500's, it was just what I had. The Little Parasound HCA 500, run full range, bettered the Hafler 500, even though it lacked the big power of the Hafler. Then, I picked up some Yamaha Pro Sound amp Chinese Copies off of Ebay. They were called GVDaudio P 6500s. They are very powerful amplifiers, and I only paid 179.00 each for them! I ran one amp each, on one speaker, using the A side to drive the horns, and the B side to drive the woofers. I found myself missing the warmth of the little Parasound HCA 500, so I went back to it, and used one of the Yamaha Clones to drive the woofers, instead of the Hafler 500. I have kept the little Parasound 500 for nearly 12 years! In fact, I still have it! It is NOT a John Curl design, it was designed by the founder of Parasound. It is a dark and warm sounding amp, just the thing to "tame" a bright set of speakers, w/o resorting to tubes, LOL Roy Delgado really likes the CF series speakers, and told me it was his opinion they are one of the best speakers Klipsch ever made, with the exception of the Jubilees he was working on, back then. I had CF 3's at that time, version 2's. He told me what marketing guys did to his masterpiece, when they went to the version 2. In an effort to get more efficeincy, he said they turned the version 2's into a "Boom Box", by raising the woofer tuning frequency, as well as a slight crossover mod. He was unable to provide me with schematics, so we could see what was done to the crossovers. He strongly suggested I sell my CF 3 version 2's and find CF 4's version 1's. Not only would I gain 3db efficiency he said, but the crossover in the CF 4 "worked out better" he told me. He was right, of course! I found that the CF 4 version 1 really "needed" nothing, except tone controls SOMETIMES, to sound awesome! Please don't laugh, but I had an old Pioneer Surround receiver that had the ability to remember tone control settings, and then control them remotely. You could program up to 20 tone control setting, and then switch them in with the remote control. One setting might have the bass up 2 notches, and the treble up 1, the next setting could have the bass up 1 and treble up 2, and so on, and so on. So, you played a CD, and then went through all the settings, until whatever CD you were listening to, sounded it's best! Or, when you were playing quality recordings, it also allowed you to bypass ALL of it. I am 58 years old Moray, and have literally owned over 100 pairs of expensive speakers, from B&W 801 to Quad 63's to Acoustat model 8's, all the Magnepans including Tympany 1's. I ave had 3 pairs of corner horns, 2 klipschhorns, and a speaker factory one. I have had Belles LaScalas Cornwalls, Heresy, and original Forte's/ But I must say this, the Klipsch CF 4's version 1's, with that old Pioneer receiver, and it's remotely controlled tone controls was the ONE setup I WISH I had back! Like a dumb azz, I told everyone about the Klipsch CF series speakers, and the differences in the series. Now, everyone wants CF 4's Version 1's,LOL They are almost impossible to find, and IF you are lucky enough to locate a pair, you will pay dearly for them! But Moray, I guess it was all worth it, because many who Lurk here, and seldom if ever post, have written me Thank You Chris messages!@ Oh, and by the way, Merry Christmas to you Moray, and everyone else!

I understand what you are saying! In a very small room, problems are amplified sometimes. I bought CF 4 version 1's in a small waterfront apartment here in Florida! I sat 5 feet away! The passive biamp setup I suggest for the Klipsch EPIC C 3 and CF 4 (they are the only CF series speakers I have owned) allows you to reduce the output of the horn. Through a LOT of experimentation, I have found that this is the very best strategy to do to your CF 3 and CF 4 series speakers. After I ran my Klipsch CF 4 Series 1 speakers this way, I loved them! I moved 2 times from that very small apartment, into both meduim and very large room houses, and the CF 4's always sounded great!

The slight harshness you hear is because the horns level is a little hotter then it could be. This is easily fixed by biamping, and using an amp on the horns that has level controls. Also, do NOT rope caulk the horns in the CF series speakers. been there, done that, it sucks! Once you can control the level of the horn, you will know a new freedom and happiness. It is that simple. The little Parasound HCA 500 sounded great on my horns, and had level controls. But any decent amp with level controls should work well on the horns. My Kid listens to Heavy Metal, and some of that crap is terribly recorded, made to sound good on speakers with out truly flat high frequency response. Play it on speakers that are close to flat, and it sounds terrible. Many commercial recordings are this way. But, once you can control the horns level, you can make anything sound good.

I totally agree, The first thing I did is re solder the entire crossover. I did not change the caps, but we did test them for both ESR and value after we pulled them. They were spot on for value, and ESR was pretty low, not perfect like a new poly cap, but still pretty low. I re used them, Some solder joints were atrocious. I guess I could have checked them with my meter, but my intent was to simply resolder ALL the connections myself, so why bother.

Do it in steps, passive biamp first, since you have your second amp on the way, right ? Then, if you like, u can go into the crossover, and replace Capacitors, if u feel comfortable doing it. Inductors can also be replaced, as can resistors. But be aware that any and all money you spend on crossover upgrades will be wasted IF you go to an electronic crossover.

Replacing Caps, or adding an Autoformer with different Taps, will never give you the fine level control adjustments that a separate amp with level contols will. The Caps are all Mylar in the CF Series, and mine measured the exact values as stock. I pulled the Caps to measure the ESR, and it was fine.

when u tilt them, it places one midrange/woofer closer to you then the other, not good! If you raise them, u will lose some bass, but not a problem when u biamp, simply turn the horns level down some to compensate for the reduced floor loading. LOL, I once put them on some crates, way off the floor till I was dead center to the horn, they imaged better, but I lost lots of bass

Roy Delgado told me when I owned the CF 3, to look for a CF 4 Version 1. Not only would I gain 3 db efficiency Roy said, but he also said the crossover in CF 4 was smoother then in the CF 3! My ears agree totally with what Roy told me, years ago. I have owned both the CF 3 series 2 and CF 4 series 1 Though I like them both, I liked the CF 4 version 1 best of all. The CF 4 version 1 I can live with, w/o it being biamped, though it still sounds best biamped. The CF 3 is another story! IMHO, that speaker MUST be biamped to sound it's best, as the guy here who plans to do so will soon find out. Being able to control the levels of the horns is a huge advantage. For the very best recordings, run the horns flat, or, if you have level controls on both the woofer and tweeter amps, you can actually run the horn slightly hotter, and wow all your audio buddies with a super detailed sound. But for the vast majority of recordings, I found I had to slightly reduce the level of the horns. The CF 3 and CF 4 speakers, when run this way, suddenly transformed into warm, musical, and powerful speakers, that could play most anything, and sound great doing it too.