ka7niq

I ordered a bunch of all motor run metal can oil filled caps for my crossovers. There are no mounting brackets for them, and I was wondering where one might find some ?

I ordered enough of these motor run caps to re do my Electro Voice Sentry III's. Order Number: I0155489 Ship To: CHRIS 2 22-1161 2 MFD 660 VAC RUN CAPACITOR 3.98 2 22-1122 17.5 MFD 370 VAC RUN CAPACITOR 8.30 6 22-1107 30 MFD 330 VAC RUN CAPACITOR 29.34 Total $: 41.62 ____________________________________________________________________________ Order Recap: Total Product $: 41.62 Net Product$: 41.62 Shipping: 16.19 Sales Tax: 0.00 Insurance : 2.00 Grand Total: 59.81 ____________________________________________________________________________ price for all these caps was very reasonable. The stock caps in the Sentry III's do not measure bad, after 36 years! They are right on the money! Have no way for ESR measure. I replaced the stock caps with ERSE replacements, and they Sentry's sound like crap. No one has been able to figure out WHAT kind of caps the 6 - 30uf ones are, but they measure well, at lest for capacitance. I figured what the heck, lets try these motor run caps, can't hurt anything ? Plus, they look cool. I have rigged the E/V Sentry III's for easy crossover rolling of capacitors, they shipped today! I am excited to try them, since exact stock type replacements did not do it for me.

I am sure you are correct, The Oil and metal case are most likely there only to privide heat dissapation and mechanical strength from squirrels and other varmints chewing through the caps on an outside a/c unit. It is said that raccoons and squirrels just loved the taste of PCB's[:'(]

They have Aerovox Bob I think, or may be Sprague, NOS ones too. I have not actually placed my order yet, but it is stored in a shopping cart on their page. My kid took off with my Visa, and they dont take PayPal. I selected by weight, not brand or condition, hoping the old, used ones may be paper in oil like the Russian Paper in Oil being sold. I have read several articles about mechanical resonances in capacitors,and their effect on sound. Clarity Caps even has a white paper on this,and make a big deal about it. The reason the ones you picked out are heavier is because of higher working voltage, so they need more oil. That is what the oil is for, better cooling for the high power application these are used in. They are all likely polypropylene to keep ESR low. In the intended application for these, high ESR makes them perform like a grenade. Bob I figured the more oil, the better damping on mechanical vibrations ?

You dont like motor run capacitors AL ? They have NOS ones. My brother Jamie is an A/C Contractor www.jamiesairconditioning.com AL, I am kind of hoping they sound good. It will be worth it in "shock value" for my brother to see the same kind of caps he uses in his line of work, on my crossover boards.

Here is the New Aerovox Bob http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=22-1300&catname=electric I know you liked these type of capacitors.

Thanks for Pic Dean, now I see how they mount. I selected, but have not yet bought the used ones. They have NOS ones at the same price.

They have Aerovox Bob I think, or may be Sprague, NOS ones too. I have not actually placed my order yet, but it is stored in a shopping cart on their page. My kid took off with my Visa, and they dont take PayPal. I selected by weight, not brand or condition, hoping the old, used ones may be paper in oil like the Russian Paper in Oil being sold. I have read several articles about mechanical resonances in capacitors,and their effect on sound. Clarity Caps even has a white paper on this,and make a big deal about it.

I was surfing and found This http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=22-1161&catname=electric They have used pulls, some new ones, and some buyouts. They are quite inexpensive, so thought I would give them a try in my old E/V Sentry III's. if tey dont work out, at these prices, I could probably re sell them on ebay ? I dont know if these are old paper in oils, polys, or mylars in some kind of liquid besides PCB oils ? I bought on weight alone, because they seem to have several choices in most capacitance ranges. I figured the more weight, the more liquid or oil, but What do I know. You spend your money, you take your chances. I have never tried motor run capacitors before, one of the few that I have not tried, but they seem to be popular with some. Perhaps they will suprise me, cheap thrills. if they do sound good in my speakers, how do you mount them ? My speakers have backs that are split in two sections, I have stands underneath the backs to hold them when they are taken off. This allows me to roll caps at will, and listen, though the bass is compromised by having the top back of speaker open. I plan to set em on tyhe board, and wire em in, see how they sound. IF they sound good, I will have to rig some kind of way to hold them to the crossover board. There is plenty of room for them in the E/V Sentry II crossover. Anyone recognize these capacitors, and know what kind they are ?

Unfortunately DeanG, I have neither the time, nor the Inclination, to use a word processor for a word by word rebuttal. I will only say that you parts and crossover sellers have enjoyed a free ride on this Forum for a LONG time, IMHO I really WISH I could get on the Local Tampa Bay Forum, and post what I know about cleaning roofs,LOL The minute you are found to be running any Local commercial venture on the Tampa Bay Forums, you are out of there. Klipsch has been very kind to you guys, and IMHO you have cloaked your true intentions by acting like ordinary everyday audiophiles, while you rake up the sales Klipsch might have had. You subtly, and through shills and friends,, convince Klipsch Owners their speakers "need" your Golden Screwdrivers. You are welcome to your delusions, as I am welcome to mine. It is Friday evening, made a LOT of money today, a Jazz Band is playing down the street. I will be sure to suggest they need an AK 47 crossover, equipped with Sonic Traps, blessed by Dean Golly Gee in his ISO 2000 shed, as I enjoy some live music.

If you feel that way about them, get the originals from Klipsch and put them back in. I'll send you my old diphragms from my K-77M tweets if if you will stop complaining about it.They don't cost that much. I can send you some old crossover caps, too. I have said that sonically they are the best 60 dollars I have ever spent on my Cornwall II's. It has effected resale with the potential buyers I have encountered so far. That is the only complaint I have of them. The Corwall 2's occupy the space the E/V Sentry III's will go in,,I own B&W 801's, Big Polk SDA SRS 2B's, JBL S 412 P's, old vintage Pioneer Horns, plus several small monitor type speakers Marvel. They are in my way, out of room here ! I have ALL my speakers, except the E/V Sentry III's for sale

LOL, OMG, no wonder why you are so adamant, you SELL stuff http://mysite.verizon.net/res12il11/id69.html z

My diapraghms were bad, and some here suggested them to me. In retrospect, I really wish I had not bought them, because I plan to sell the Cornwall II's. Many buyers cringe at the thought of non stock Klipsch Parts in the Corn II's. In many buyers eyes, my Cornwalls are but a tinker toy now, I have seriously hurt the re sale of my speakers! If I had it to do over, I would have bought STOCK Klipsch diapraghms from Klipsch, and NEVER mentioned I have been inside the Cornwalls.. One guy said " if you changed the tweeter insides, how do I know they wre done right, and what ELSE have you done" ? I prefer some other speakers i own to the Corn II's, and they need a new home, just having trouble finding one!

Look who is talking, you have a hot link in your system profile to your roof cleaning business. Don't play innocent. Who is calling the kettle black now...... Pot to Kettle calling Kettle. Ill bet the pot is at least Living in the Midrange. Dave. Get a GRIP dude,I can HARDLY clean roofs outside of Tampa, and NEVER have I written any business off my link. But I have helped plenty of fellow audiophiles in other places, by telling them HOW to clean their own roofs, for free. And, my phone number is on there, in case anyone wants to call and talk audio. I have met a few audiophiles here on Klipsch that way. There is a BIG difference in advertising on the forum when you are selling crossovers and Capacitors to all parts of the world. Every time a crossover seller posts, it is one big advertisement for what they do, or sell. Go through my posts dating way back to 2002, you will NEVER see me selling or promoting my services on this forum. ALL my posts are audio related. Wow, you are really grasping at straws now, are you one of the shills Amy from Klipsch speaks about ? Instead of keeping with the thread topic, you change the topic and post title every chance you get, and launch personal attacks on me as well. I have a right to my opinion, and you have the opportunity to question it. That you change the topic and title of this thread constantly indicates to me you are either protecting a seller of crossovers and components, or maybe are that same Person yourself ? WHY do you keep changing this threads title ? Maybe because you feel this information and my experiences may be Hurting sales of capacitors and crossovers ? Why ELSE would you do it, is there not room for any other experience that may not fit the illusion you "Need" some special crossover or capacitor ? IF you don't like this thread, may I respectfully suggest you find another, or simply start your own ? Google has indexed this thread already, so the public and other Klipsch Owners will be the final judge of it, and it will live on the Internet for years,and be pulled up by Klipsch owners confused about the "need" to "improve" their crossvers and capacitors. It present a different point of view, no more, no less.

I will tell you what, if I want my roof cleaned, I will call you for advice. If I need crossover advice I will call DeanG, ALK, Bob Crites or one of the many other qualified forum members. You really need to start living in the Midrange. Dave. OK, call who you want for advice ? Why not try Klipsch for advice, maybe call and ask for Roy Delgado, or the engineers who designed your speakers ? Oh, I KNOW, the resident "Guru's" know more then Klipsch Engineers, right ? LOL When any of them hold US Patents on speaker design, please let me know ? I swear, someimes this Forum can be like Ray Charles, driving Stevie Wonder around, LOL I will heed advice from Roy Delgado, or any Klipsch Engineer first.

K3KWK, LOL, I say jokingly K3Klipsch Without Klipsch, and I am KA7 Never In Question or KA7NoIQ LOL Al, we are not talking about Microwaves here, these are not RF Frequencies, but audio frequencies. Many fail to realize when measuring ESR what frequency they are measuring at. Go lower down in frequency, and the high ESR drops, at least on the capacitors I have measured. But High ESR is not necessarily as bad as some make it out to be. In fact, a lossy high ESR Capacitor may tame a shrill, foreward speaker, quick and dirty, w/o spending the grand kids money for a full blown crossover redesign. One must remember, that PWK and Roy Delfgado are talented engineers, PWK was holder of many patents, before he was taken from us. Do you really think that the Klipsch engineers did not account for the Mylar and Electrolytic caps in their anechoic chamber testing and voicing ? LOL,my kid bought "premium" plug wires for his hot rod, against my blessings, andthey flat failed at 25,000 miles! I tried to tell him STOCK plug wires are designed to go 100.000. 000 miles, but he had to learn the hard way ... Hey, last time I saw you post,, you imposed an exile on yourself from the Forum ?

LOL, Posting "Living In The Mid range' has nothing to do with upgrades and modifications, and why do you constantly change the topic of the thread, as well as the title ? Maybe TRY to "protect your crossover and capacitor selling friend" from search engines, who uses this forum for free advertising, IMHO Amy from Klipsch warns about this in her post, as well as using phoney profiles to shill for crossover and capacitor parts seller on Klipsch Forum. It my opinion it is best to buy stock replacement Capacitors from Klipsch, if possible ? If not, as audiophile I share ERSE website because they make decent quality replacement capacitors, IF Klipsch can not supply them.

Here is some things I have found out by re doing crossover capacitors in many speakers, Klipsch included. Replacing old electrolytics with low ESR Poly caps changes the sound, not ALWAYS for the better. [] A B&W engineer told me the charecteristics of the caps they used in the Matrix 801 were taken into account for. Changing caps will change the sound, but not always for the better. Floyd Toole has shown if we are to make a mistake in a speakers response, we should accept a DIP, vs a Peak! I have deliberately placed a bunch of caps in parellel to get really low ESR, with terrible results , much of the time. It is my opinion, the paper in oil caps have high ESR, and that is what we are hearing. I would bet my life that if we took a Mylar Cap with exact same ESR and values, and did a double blind A B test, it will sound the same. PLENTY great sounding speakers have Electrolytic caps in them. I do believe it possible to :TUNE" a speaker by playing with different caps! But it is cap Value and ESR, not TYPE, we should be concerned with. If you slap a new Electrolytic in a circuit that had another cap type in it, and you LIKE the sound, go for it! In some old Spica's TC 50's, I rigged a way to insert several different caps and switch. I wound up with a Bennic Electrolytic, vs several poly and even a paper in oil cap! That cap was what the Spica's wanted! In my opinion. "limiting yourself" to only "good caps" is not the best course of action. I have changed many speakers crossover parts, and have had Radio Shack Electrolytics sound better, in several applications, then even Red Clarity Caps and Mundorf Supremes! It is all about what the circuit wants, not the cap TYPE, is what I have found.

Guess it better to live in the mid range, then go through Bankruptcy [] When I have to replace capacitors or crossover parts in Klipsch speakers, I have found great deals on good sounding parts here www.erseaudio.com You have to buy 20.00 worth of crossover stuff minimum to buy direct, but if Klipsch does not have an old part, and you are forced to go aftermarket, I have had great luck with them.

. We used to call it a smile curve

I wonder what PWK would say when people replace the stock type of capacitors in products he designed ? Here is a good capacitor article, along with sources to buy from! Film Capacitors Film capacitors are mostly used in high-performance applications. Polycarbonate, polyester, and polypropylene have been the "big three" of film capacitors. They are the only ones that most film capacitor makers make, although polyphenylene sulphide (PPS) is on the rise. For the lower volume capacitors, I have listed known manufacturers. This does not mean they actually stock parts, but at least they have the capability to make them if they want to. Polycarbonate: Polycarbonate has a fairly low temperature drift (lower than most films), dissipation factor, and dielectric absorption. It can be used in timing circuits, although C0G ceramics are a better choice for small sizes. It is suitable for some pulse applications, and for some precision analog applications, especially if you need its good temperature stability and relatively high temperature rating. Moisture absorption is high compared to most other film dielectrics, a problem for some critical applications. Good heat resistance, to 125C, but not good enough to be found in surface-mount packages. Some manufacturers recommend it for automotive applications. Unfortunately, polycarbonate is about to go the way of polystyrene. The last manufacturer of capacitor-grade film, Bayer AG, says they will cease production at the end of 2000, but may have a substitute material. A number of manufacturers are making recommendations for polycarbonate replacements (some of which should not be taken seriously). Evox-Rifa for one, recommends polyphenylene sulfide, and this is probably the best choice for most applications. Polycarbonate has a slight edge in high-temperature leakage and is better at self-healing, but PPS is as good or better in most other parameters. PPS´s only weaknesses are a higher high-temperature temperature drift and higher DF at high temperature, >100C. Its K is about the same as PC, so PPS caps will be about the same size. Polypropylene may also be considered for applications where very low leakage is important, but high temperature is not a issue, although its temperature drift is not as good as PC or PPS. Polystyrene has had availability long after the film ceased production, but this may not happen with polycarbonate. Production is expected to cease no later than 2006. Unlike polystyrene, polycarbonate has only a few significant advantages over replacement dielectrics. PPS's main problems are that the capacitor-grade film is single sourced (Toray in Japan), expensive, and more difficult to process into capacitors than polycarbonate. >>Update 4/10/05<< Electronic Concepts Inc. ( http://www.ecicaps.com/ ) has announced that they are now making their own capacitor-grade polycarbonate film and are selling the finished capacitors. ECI specializes in upscale parts for aerospace, medical, and similar industries. We may not see cheap, dipped, polycarbonate parts. http://www.ecicaps.com/pub/Polycarbonate_Status.pdf Polyester: Polyester is probably the most popular of the film capacitors, at least for board-level applications. Actually, polyester is a generic term for a class of similar polymers, the one used in polyester capacitors being polyethylene terephthalate. Dupont's trade name is Mylar, some people call it PET, PETE, or PETP just to be confusing (and that doesn´t even include the various European trade names for it). It doesn't really do anything particularly well but low cost, small size and the ability to do many things well enough makes it a good choice for many noncritical applications. High dissipation factor, especially at increasing frequency, means it is best used in DC or relatively low-frequency/low-current pulse and AC power applications. Poor temperature drift, dielectric absorption, and leakage relegate it to non-critical analog circuit applications. Typical applications would be where you want a capacitor larger than a C0G but better electrical properties than an X7R. Polyester capacitors can typically be found in values from 0.01 uF through at least 10 uF and beyond. Polyester has a high temperature drift but can be found layered with polypropylene to flatten the temperature curve (the two go in opposite directions). Polyester capacitors are available to 125C. Good heat resistance allows polyester capacitors to be made in surface-mount styles. Polypropylene: Polypropylene (PP) capacitors have a lot going for them. They are available in a wide range of sizes and voltages, and are used in a wide variety of circuits. PP has a very low dissipation factor over it´s entire temperature range and over a wide frequency range. This makes polypropylene capacitors popular for high-frequency, high-current applications like switching power supplies. Large film, film-oil, and paper-oil-film types are found in power-line applications like power-factor correction. These can have operating-voltage ratings >400 kV AC. Polypropylene motor-starter, motor-run, and SCR snubbers are replacing older electrolytic and paper-oil types which all have much higher dissipation factors. Sizes for these run into the 10s of uF and >500 VAC. While PPs very low dissipation factor has made it the only viable material for many high-power AC applications, its self-healing properties, critical for reliable high voltage operation, are only fair. When an arc-through of the dielectric occurs, PP tends to leave more carbon at the site than polyester. Also, the arc is more quickly extinguished if the gas pressure at the failure site is as high as possible. This requires that the dielectric is as strong and heat resistant as possible. Polyester is better in this regard as well. Oil impregnation helps make up for these deficiencies however. The small through-hole styles are available in the usual range of sizes, roughly 100 pF-10 uF. Low leakage and low dielectric absorption make small polypropylene capacitors suitable for integrators and sample-and-hold circuits. Moisture absorption is negligible. Only its higher temperature drift makes it inferior to polystyrene. Polypropylene has limited heat resistance (to 105°C), and is not found in surface mount. Polystyrene: Polystyrene (PS), (the Europeans often call it "styroflex" or "styrol") has long been the material of choice for critical analog circuits. Low leakage, low dielectric absorption and a shallow, flat temperature curve makes these capacitors suitable for timing circuits, filters, integrators, and sample-and-hold circuits. Moisture absorption is very low. Size, cost, availability, and temperature range limitations make polystyrene unsuitable for most other applications. Heat resistance is limited to about 85C, so forget surface mount. They can be damaged by soldering and by chlorinated board cleaning solvents. I don´t believe I have seen them in metallized film, only in film-foil. Because of the poor heat resistance, polystyrene has largely been replaced by polypropylene and C0G ceramics, and the capacitor-grade film is no longer being made. There is several year´s supply still available, and they are still being sold, but be careful using them in new applications. Some manufacturers have noted that polystyrene caps are "not for new designs". One company, ITW Paktron, makes polypropylene capacitors with a guaranteed temperature drift similar to (if not quite as good as) polystyrene. PS's other electrical properties are mostly very similar to PP. Whether polystyrene capacitors will really go away any time soon is not certain. I have been warned of polystyrene´s demise "in a few years" for over a decade now, and yet it is still available. There almost seems to be vast supplys of the film stashed away in manufacturers back rooms. It may also be that declining usage will extend available stocks for many years to come. I imagine that many of polystyrene´s traditional applications are fading away as newer technologies take over. Companies that advertise polystyrene capacitors include: http://www.americancapacitor.com/ http://www.centechusa.com/welcome.htm http://www.tecategroup.com/ti/ti2.htm http://www.vitelelectronics.com/asc.htm http://www.filmcapacitors.com/ http://www.richeycap.com/ http://www.southernelectronics.com/ http://www.wescocap.com/ http://www.crcfilm.com/ http://www.seacorinc.com/ http://www.lcr-inc.com/products/polystyrene.htm http://www.eci-capacitors.com/ I believe these guys make their own film http://www.evox-rifa.com/ http://www.electrocube.com/ http://www.seasonshk.com/ http://www.am-21.com Centalab Hong Kong !?! http://www.susco.com http://www.rtie.com http://www.tscgroup.com/ http://www.eurofarad.com http://www.capacitors.com.hk Suntan Companies that advertise "polystyrene-replacement" capacitors include: http://www.electrocube.com/ http://www.paktron.com/ http://www.sbelectronics.com/sbe.htm Polysulfone: A few people spell it polysulphone. Now rare, it was once considered to be the dielectric of the future. Not even sure the capacitor-grade film is still in production. Very good heat resistance, to 150C. Dissipation factor fairly good, and it remains good at relatively high temperature and high frequency. Moisture absoption is high however, similar to polycarbonate. Temperature drift is about the lowest among film capacitors. Its major advantage is good high-temperature leakage. I have never seen it in SMD. Companies that advertise polysulfone capacitors include: http://www.americancapacitor.com/ http://www.eci-capacitors.com/ http://www.rti-corp.com/Electronics/imb.html Polyethylene naphthalate: Polyethylene naphthalate (PEN), another form of polyester, is a relatively new material to the capacitor world. It has very good heat resistance, but is otherwise much like polyester. It is available in larger sizes than C0G ceramic, lower temperature drift than polyester, and lower leakage than X7R. PEN capacitors are available to 125C. It is commonly found in SMD capacitors, including large values (>1 uF). Polyphenylene sulfide: Polyphenylene sulfide (PPS) is another "newcomer", although it has long been used as an engineering plastic. It is found mostly in SMD but also in through-hole packages. It has many attractions, including low dissipation factor and very good heat resistance, a combination not found in other common capacitors. Dielectric absorption is fairly low. Moisture absorption is very low. One manufacturer says it has C0G-like electrical properties. This is a bit of an exaggeration but it is probably your best choice if you need a C0G-like capacitor >0.05 uF in SMD. PPS caps are commonly available to 150C. PPS is now being recommended as the main replacement for polycarbonate capacitors which will be going out of production. PPS's only serious drawback comparied to polycarbonate is an increasingly high dissipation factor as the temperature goes above 100C. PPS has about the lowest temperature drift of film capacitors that still have good availability. Teflon: Teflon TFE is DuPont´s trade name for polytetrafluoroethylene or PTFE. Teflon is actually a blanket trademark for wide variety of DuPont fluorocarbon polymers. PTFE is also sold under a number of other trademarks such as Fluoroplast-4 and Fluon PTPE. PTFE has very low leakage, very low dielectric absorption (probably the lowest in both cases), very low dissipation factor, a wide temperature range (to 200C for some), low temperature drift, negligible moisture absorption, and very good stability. It is about the best film capacitor for critical analog applications. Expensive, however, which is why you don't see them every day and few companies still make them. The film has exceptionally poor mechanical properties and inconsistent thickness, and manufacturers find it difficult to work with. Available from 0.001 to at least 2 uF. Have not seen them in SMD. Well almost. CDE now makes a few Teflon SMD parts in very low values, <10 pF. Companies that advertise Teflon capacitors include: http://www.americancapacitor.com/ http://www.polyflon.com/ also non-magnetic http://www.customelec.com/ http://www.dei2000.com/ http://www.crcfilm.com/ http://www.condenser.com/ http://www.eci-capacitors.com/ http://www.semco-usa.com SEMCO is really a mica specialist, but apparently makes some Teflons in small values http://www.v-cap.com big audio caps http://www.cde.com/catalogs/MCM-MIN.pdf SMD Acrylic Acrylic is a real newcomer. The main attraction seems is size. C-D suggests it as an X7R replacement. Dissipation factor is high relative to other films, 0.5-1.5% through 20 kHz, temperature drift is only fair, and useful frequency range is limited to well under 1 MHz. Although the upper temperature limit is only 85C, they are only available in SMD. Companies that advertise acrylic capacitors include: http://www.cornell-dubilier.com/ http://www.tecategroup.com/ Has graphs.

The table shows the relative aging for a number of dielectrics. The numbers are for reference only. Opinions vary on the actual numbers, according to the type of test used.

I get my ears cleaned of excess wax, makes a difference

Wow, I have a friend who I once told to check the tweeter in a pair of Klipschorns I was buying. I listened to the one closest to me, and he listened to FM hiss on the one nearest him. Said it was fine, put his ear by the mid/tweeter, said he heard it working. Got The K Horns home, found out. He is an audiophile too.

And, that reward is good sound,at least for me.