ka7niq

Me BAD! I am laughing now too. The problem is with all of this is I have been responding to my notification emails. Had I READ the post you made about Roy being here, all this wouldn't have happened. BTW, I checked out the CF 4's as soon as they hit, made her pull the ports too! They were the small port versions, indicating the might be series 2's, or even worse, series 3's. No way I am gonna buy some speakers cross country without looking at the woofers to be sure they are not the "dreaded" series 3's, LOL Someday, we need to "prod" Roy into finding out WHAT the crossover change he was forced to make by marketing was, so all the many CF series 2 owners can return their speakers to their former glory ? Hey, I got an idea ? It it possible to pull one of your crossovers and take a picture of it. Then, maybe we can find someone having a CF 4 series 2, and get a pic of it;s crossover ? Then, maybe Roy, or someone else can see WHAT was changed, and we can change it back. This would be an enormous service to CF version 2 owners, and sure increase the resale value if we decide to move up to say a Jubilee, or something. Version 1 CF 4's and CF 3's are highly sought after, yet it is hard to "give away" a series 2. People are "scared", and rightfully so, of thinking they are getting a version 2, and winding up with the dreaded version 3, and it's different woofers. "Different" is being kind ...... Have you tried a passive biamp arrangement, with level controls so you can back off the horns level JUST a tad ? You must be careful not to back it off too far, or you will hear the upper end "nastys" of the woofers. But I run mine this way, and find I seldom need tone controls. Floyd Tool and the Canadiens have identified a "warmth curve" that most listeners find pleasurable. Bi amping your CF 4's with controllable amps will allow you to "voice" your speaker a bit more for your room, and tastes. But WHAT did they do to the crossover, was it simply a level increase or decrease, OR a crossover point change, etc ? Whatever they did, I do not like it. I am quite sure the people responsible for this change are no longer at Klipsch. But I know myself, and several audiophiles, would pay big bucks for 5 minutes alone in a locked Anechoic Chamber with whoever is responsible for turning the excellent CF 4 series 1 into basically a glorified boom box! Although the longer series 1 ports are not available at Klipsch, surprisingly the shorter ones still are, LOL See for yourself what damage the shorter ones do ? They are cheap, and you will chuckle in amazement how such a simple thing as port tuning can make or break a speaker. If Roy ever comes back to the forum, I want to ask him about perhaps using my RANE 24 db active crossover on my CF 3 version 2's ? It has 24 db Linkwits Riley adjustable slopes. I can control level and crossover freq, and even compensate for time delay! Like I really know how to do all that, but I can learn. I wish I had never sold my CF 4 version 1's ......

Wow, Jim Hunter, now that is a blast from the past! I used to pull and sell old Western Electric stuff out of theatres out West in the late 70's and early 80's. I considered it "JUNK" back then, LOL Half the time it was given to me by the movie theatres. I couldn't imagine why the Japanese paid so much for that old stuff ? I had a weird pair of Western Horns, almost looked like Trumpets ? The Japanese would not buy them, and I was "stuck" with them, or so I thought ? A guy I met in Audio Mart, IF you remember that , and NOT the one in Stereophile, told me of some guy who worked at Klipsch named Jim Hunter. He told me that Jim Hunter might want them for his horn museum ? And so, I called Klipsch, and spoke to Jim. Sure enough, he bought them from me. I could KILL myself for selling all the Western stuff I did, but I made a LOT of money off the Japanese. Little did I know how good some of that stuff was. I even asked several audiophiles WHY the Japanese wanted all that old stuff. I was told it was a "status symbol" to have in a Tokyo apartment, LOL Kinda like having the tail off of an old Pink Cadillac in your family room! I FINALLY heard a full Western System, after it was ":too late". OMG, now I finally saw why the Japanese wanted that stuff!

Oh My God! I just checked my Private messages. Bob Crites sent me one, and let me "in" on what was really going on. Bodcaw Boy Is THE Roy Delgado. I honestly had NO Idea who I was talking to. I meant no harm, quite the opposite. I apologize to any I may have offended by my total ignorance of this situation. Work picked up, and I was out the door before I had a chance to call Trey at Klipsch to "take care" of this "insult". But even on my way to work, I expected to see this thread going nuts, once people saw last night's "insults" of Klipsch Head Engineer. I guess everyone knew BUT me, LOL And yes, I am laughing about it right now, because I have been "HAD", big time. And, I am honored to have been allowed to provide such amusement for the wonderful people on the Forum.

Hello Bob, I don't know WHO he is, and this is JUST my opinion, but I like people who use their real names, or at least initials. BEC stands for Bob Crites, DJK stands for Dennis something, DeanG is Dean G, ALK is Al Klapinburger, and Duke Spinner is Duke Spinner, at least I THINK he is. Ka7niq is my Ham Radio Call. To each his own, but from what I have read from this guy so far Bob, I can see why perhaps he hides behind made up monikers ? It's pretty late in the evening now, and most are in bed. But, when the regulars on this forum see how he slammed Klipsch Head Engineer, they might be as upset as me. I do not know Roy Delgado personally, but he took the time to be kind to me, and answer my questions, just like you have done before Bob, in several Emails. And, since a busy engineer like Roy has better things to do then hang around on a forum like this, he is obviously not here to defend himself. I honestly think Bob that because it is late in the evening, this bodcaw knows he can temporalily "get away" with his insults of Roy Delgado. And, I am sure when Trey or other Moderators see his slam of Roy, he will get moderated, and maybe more ? If that happens, everyone will probably wonder what got into me, because they will not see what this bodcaw character did to set me off ? I believe in free speech Bob, and I have been sometimes critical of the Klipschorns. It is well known they are not my cup of Tea. But, though I much prefer the CF 4 version ones to them, I do not call PWK a "pain" and a "two bit engineer". Especially on the Klipsch board! Well, finally my girlfriend, who is an RN, is home from work.' She is doing Home Health, and had a patient with a crisis, and was called. She has some wine for me she picked up from the store, and I need a drink after all of this. The heck with this bodcaw, I am going to go out in the front room, turn on the CF 3's, and listen to some romantic Jazz with my Lady, and some good wine. The Moderators will take care of him tomorrow!

and damping does help...[] boy!! I read somewhere that PWK preferred the Exponential flare. Maybe it was in a discussion or review of the new heritage series ? Where the midrange horns were left alone in honor of Paul, or something to that effect ? But I know I read it, and if it isn't true, thanks for correcting me. And thanks for the advice on damping too! Chris

Wow, a DENON ? I have owned the Denon 5600, and 5700, but never a 5800. I have also owned the Harman Kardon AVR 7000, and a lot of other receivers. I got on a "receiver kick" about 5 years ago, and had many come through my house. For a surround receiver, with dolby digital, and all the gee whiz video stuff, my favorite is a real sleeper. A JVC! Yep, a 50 some pound JVC RX DP 9, or RX DP 10. My European friends turned me on to it, and it seems to be quite well accepted on the other side of the pond ? It has a sweet, warm sound quality, and it really takes my very best seperates to actually beat it. It has a really cool switchable anti jitter circuit in it, and seperate power supply caps for all channels. The supply caps look really small, but in stereo they all parallel. The JVC will actually drive my VMPS RM 40's, a 4 ohm load, although not as good as a real big amp. I probably have not heard the Denon you are using Tom, bet here is my take on the 5600 and 5700. I found them to have a thin, detailed sound, which may be ok on speakers really warm and rich ? The JVC RX DP 9 has more of a Luxman type sound, and it must be low on IM distortion too because it never fatigued me. The Harman Kardon AVR receivers all shame the same bland, dark, uninvolving sound, kind of like a B&K 4430 amp. The AVR 80, 85, and AVR 7000 never did it for me, a FAR cry from the OLD HK stuff. The Luxman R 117, for a stereo only receiver is a masterpiece sonically, and at 160 WPC, not lacking in power either. It is well known by now that personally I do not care for the Klipschorns. But, the best they ever sounded in my home was with a cheap TEAC all in one CD/DVD player. I read about the TRY Path amp here, and decided to look at the back of my TEAC bedroom stereo. Sure enough, it was try path, and I hooked it up, and wow! Best the Klipschorns ever sounded, but in all fairness to the KHORNS, my room is very wide, and I could not get an image like I like. I still have a JVC digital receiver, you know, the one everyone raved about ? It is a POS IMHO. Onkyo makes one, and I took it home from Circuit City. I returned it, but it wasn't bad on the Forte's and Klipschorns. Certainly MUCH better then the JVC digital receiver. I was not impressed with the Panasonic digital receiver either. I have owned two of them. I sold my Von Schweikert VR 2's to a guy who then called me back for my suggestions on what sounded good with them. He had some Adcom stuff, and didn;t have a lot of money to spend. I suggested a JVC RX DP 9 receiver, and a LITE Audio DAC 72 tube DAC. That combo is almost shockingly 3 dimensional, and very affordable too. He is very happy. Like you, I like to find sleepers that sound good, and cost little.

Glad you are happy with the CF 4's! I like the CF series speakers too. The best mine ever sounded was in a passive biamp setup. I took out the speaker terminal shorting bars, and wired one amp to the woofers, and one to the horns. Both amps had level controls, and were the same. I slightly reduced the top amps level, JUST a tad, and oh my! I think Roy Delgado, the CF Series designer, went for as flat a response as possible. This is great, IF you are one who likes to use tone controls, LOL Actually, they sounded great with an old top of line Pioneer Pro Logic Receiver. I still have this receiver, and I like it because it has remote control tone memories. You can program a bunch of tone control settings into it's memory, and switch on the fly, until it sounds best. I was shamlessy enjoying this receiver with the CF 4's until some audio buddies made me feel "guilty" for using tone correction, LOL But, I feel that the CF series speakers benefit from a slight reduction in the horns level, if you are like me and do not want to use tone controls/eq. Another amp that was "majic" on both the CF 4's and CF 3's is the small Parasound HCA 500. My big Moscode 600 did not do it on them, but this may change. It just had all it's caps replaced, and will be back shortly. What amp experiences have you had with yours ? And, have you ever compared the CF speakers to other Klipsch ?

Wow, he backed out ? Those were about as nice a pair of VOTTS as I have seen in a LONG time. There is a pair of them for sale locally on CraigsList Tampa, and the guy wants 650.00. They are beaters compared to yours. I BET you are luvin the Model 19's ? I know you like Solid State Tom, and perhaps they can sound really good with it too. But I was totally blown away hearing them with all Conrad Johnson tube stuff

I thank You Fritz for the pictures! My CF series driver is a bit different, but this gives me hope! I see what i am contemplating has been done before. Like I said, i am gonna do it, and see how it sounds. If it does not improve the sound, I will remove it, just like I removed the Rope Caulk from my fiberglass Tractrix CF series horns.

You a Ham too Duke ? I had a Drake C Link, and an old TR 4 CW, great stuff, American Made too! Miamisburg, Ohio is where Drake was made. BTW Duke, the CF 3 uses the K 63 KN driver

OOPS, The CF 4 and CF 3's have the K 63 KN aluminum driver, with NEO magnet, not the K 77 My Cornwalls of course have the K 77

Thanks Tom, and btw, congratus on finding the Model 19's! What's with this Lexington KY stuff ? I thought you were in Chicago ? I know you retired, and I remember you driving to go "rescue" the Model 19's. I also saw your old VOTT's on AGon. They sold right away!

Exactly, and since the volume of air effects the compliance, it should change things, for better, or worse ? Remember, we are talking about a CF series speaker, the CF 3. It's driver is from Klipsch Pro Line, and maybe it was not really intended specifically for this particular Horn ? I hear a resonance peak in it, especially at higher levels. I am HOPING to "push" this peak up higher in frequency, or subdue it. Hey, if it don't work, nothing lost but some enjoyable time, right ?

I actually met PWK for the first time at Cobo Hall, in Detroit. I was 16 at the time, 52 years old now. I remember seeing these people in an Elevator with big buttons on their jackets saying "Bull Shit" I followed them back to their room, and heard Klipsch speakers for the very first time. Paul was very kind to me, and my young friends. But, with all due respect to what I consider a truly great man, he did NOT design my speakers! The CF 4's and CF 3's are Roy Delgado's design, not Paul's. I am simply trying to make a speaker I like very much, possibly better. I think any wooden speaker needs to have it;s insides coated with a Tar/Sand mixture, to deaden the cabinet walls. This would hardly be practical in production, but it don't mean it isn't better ?. From the limited time I spoke with him, I think he would encourage an audiophile to experiment ? I told him, at the Cobo Hall Audio Show, in Detroit that my Grandpa was a Ham, and that someday, I was gonna be one too. I told him of helping my Grandpa make antennas out of aluminum, and wire, and how i climbed trees for my blind Grandfather, to put his antenna's up. Grandpa went blind from Diabetes Paul knew exactly what a Ham was, and I told him of Grandpa's Bozak and old Fisher Stereo. BTW, I took home Klipsch literature from that show, read it, and told grandpa all about meeting PWK. To my surprise, Grandpa knew exactly who he was, and said he wanted to someday own Klipschorns. Grandpa made good on his dream, sold the Bozak Concert Grands, and bought 2 Klipschorns for the basement. He kept the Fisher tube stuff. My Mom And Dad moved us kids to Florida, and finally the Diabetes killed Grandpa. My Aunt gave me all Grandpa's Ham stuff, but knew the value of the old Klipschorn and Fisher stuff. I made my case that I was the only Audiophile/Ham in the family, and that Grandpa would want me to have his electronic stuff. But my Aunt Theresa prevailed, and I got "stuck" with only Grandpa's Collins S Line Ham Equipment. I still have it Duke, and sometimes, in a darkened room, I swear I can go back to to being a young boy at my Grandparents home, as I watch the glow of the tubes. A mint, complete Collins S Line is worth big bucks, but I wouldn't sell it for the world. Some may call it a "boat anchor", and so be it. But to me, it's a Collins, made by Americans when American Quality meant exactly that. My kid likes audio, thank God, but no way is he ever gonna be a Ham like me. But .... Maybe someday he will "get busy" and make me a Grandchild to "carry on" our family's electronic and audio interests ? The old Collins S Line, and all my audio stuff will then be heading his, or her way.

I am FAR from an expert on Horn speakers, but it is my understanding that the compression you speak of occurs in the mouth of the horn and the front of the driver. And, adding foam or damping material like fiberglass, etc, can make it appear to the driver that there is actually a larger amount of air space. I THINK it may be a good thing in slowing down the rear radiation of the back of the diapraghm. Think about it for a minute ? The rearward sound is ping ponging around, hitting the magnet, then the rear of the diapraghm, mixing with the intended frontal radiation. I would think this powerful rearward radiation can modulate the dome, and do not understand, nor can I find any reason why some attempt should not be made to do something about it, except to save money, ease manufacturing, or prevent possible warranty claims when and if it comes loose ? I'm gonna try it, cant hurt anything, and will give me soething to do.

Thank You for sharing your experience and pictures. The Klipsch CF 3 uses a different midrange driver. It is from the Klipsch commercial line. It is either a titanium or Aluminum dome compression driver, and has a Neo magnet. I have had the compression driver domes apart before, and trhey use guide pins. I feel totally comfortable taking them apart. There is no tweeter in the Klipsch CF 3. It is a two way. I was thinking that all that undamped energy coming off the rear of the dome can't be a good thing ? I mean, think about it ? All that reflected sound is bouncing off the magnet, then back into the dome ? I really wish I had SOME theory to go on, but all I have is my ears. With all the tweaks people do to their horns, etc, I am really suprised there is so little info on doing this ? I know if you really stuff say a conventional midrange driver's compartment, it sometimes reduces coloration, and can alter the Q of the driver, which MAY not be a bad thing ? I am NOT here to bash Klipschm far from it! But, I currently own 12 pairs of speakers, and I TRY and remain objective, and not get emotionally involved with any speaker I own. But I have to say there is not a Klipsch speaker I have ever heard that was not in need of improvement. I think the OLD Forte's were quite good, and I personally prefer them over the two pairs of Klipschorns I have owned, and the Cornwalls, except in the bass. They are still voiced a LITTLE too "on the edge" for my long term listening satisfaction though. I like the CF 3's and CF 4's, but they have their faults too, and I am trying to see if it is something in the compression driver itself that is at fault. I also have a pair of 1978 Cornwalls I picked up, and the guy SAID he replaced the tweeter diapraghms, but they sound almos muted, unless pointed right at you. The CF series speakers image very well, and are smooth. But I hear some midrange problems, noticeable on some female voices. I have a RANE active crossover, and I almost want to biamp them using the Rane and it's 24 db slopes. I believe the compression driver/horn combo used in the CF series speaker has a peak in it's lower range. It becomes clearly audible at higher levels, and I have a large room, and have never been known to be shy with a volume control. Maybe adding damping material will lower the drivers Q, and/or raise the drivers resonance frequency, hence reducing it's output in this range I find offensive. All that will be "lost" is some time. Just like that stupid rope caulk, it can easily be removed. I say "stupid" because on my fiberglass Tractrix CF3 and CF 4 series Horns, it did not sound good. On a metal horn, I bet it could work magic, although I think a mixture of Tar with sand added to it could be good too.

Work is slow right now, and I have some extra time on my hands. So, I am going to take my horn drivers out of my speakers, and place some damping material behind the dome. I have NO IDEA what, or how much to put behind the dome, but I plan to try cotton, felt, and maybe even a foam rubber plug. The speakers are Klipsch CF 3's, but I have Cornwall's too. IF it works, I may even try it on the Corns ? I have done many Google searches for this, and can't seem to find anything about it, except that PWK supposedly did not like it, or something to that effect. Well, PWK did not like the Tractrix flare either ~ ~ ~ I will of course be careful not to have the damping material actually touch the dome, etc. I posted a similar thread, and didn't get many responses. I can't see why it would not be a good thing ? My "take" on the many Klipsch speakers I have heard and owned is that they place efficiency above ALL else. Perhaps they were meant to be EQ'd, and a peak, dip, or resonance here and there was "overlooked" , all in the name of getting the MOST efficiency. I guess this is ONE design approach .......

Well, believe it or not, I have drivers on the way! What a great place this forum is, and what a difference Horn lovers are, compared to the snobs I have been accustomed to in "High End Audio". Someone GAVE me the drivers, just asked for shipping costs! My "instinct" tells me the little Gollehon wooden horn is gonna be a sweet sounding litlle bastardo ?? But, if it doesn't work out, or if I do not plan to utilize it in my system, I will not hoard it Freddy, and will "pass it on". I can't SAY freely WHAT I am planning, at THIS time, because there is something for sale locally that I do not want "snatched out from under me"! But, both you, and DJK I am SURE will "approve" of it, and will understand my current reluctance to reveal WHAT it is I am planning on buying! Stay tuned, more will be revealed.

Yes, it is not a cast frame woofer, but it has a JBL white paper cone, and is very efficient, possibly more then the Altec 421A. I have listened to it, and it is very Organic sounding. In the JBL Decade 315 speaker, it simply runs up and rolls off, no inductor! That means it has a smooth roll off, and goes out past 1K. I mentioned it has a WHITE cone right ? This may be of some importance to me, but I can't tell you why right now Duke. You will understand when I explain though, and I will in about a week.

Noted Duke, but believe it or not, the JBL is more efficient

Altec 421 a 99dB @ 1watt, Fr = 40 hz ..drops like a rock at 70 hz, about 15 db down at 35 hz ... the 421 is a sound reinforcement woof, tho there is non-linear response, and stiff suspension Well, Freddy likes em, and the price was right .... Not really concerned with a woofers ultimate bass capability, have some SVS Ultra subs, and lots of power .... More concerned with midrange reproduction, and Freddy syas they sound ok. I also have some JBL 15's that came out of some Decade 315's. The Decade 315's were a small sealed cabinet with a 15 inch woofer with NO Crossovwer inductor on it. JBL simply let it run up, and placed a cap on the midrange. Suprisingly enough, the JBL 15 woofer is 99 db efficient, and actually sounded pretty good too in the mids. It is a paper cone, of course, a white one, like the old JBL's. These are the woofers I currently have right now. I will probably build a box around either one, and it MAY be the JBL instead of the Altec too. I am just a bit concerned since I have no way to measure the JBL parameters WHAT will happen when it gets put in a large box ? The Decade 315 it came out of is about 2.5 cu ft, and a sealed box.

These are OLD Gollehons Dennis, and I was SURE shocked to see an Altec 421 A in there. Not that I even knew what it was, LOL FreddY likes them, and so do some others apparently from threads I have read. The little Gollehon horns are wood, pity someone swiped the drivers .... I only paid 50 bucks for them, and the 421A's gotta be worth that, and maybe someday I will use the Horns, or at least find them a good home. I did get a PM from someone who said he has some Gollehon drivers IF I pay shipping. I am waiting for him to get back to me. Check your PM Dennis Chris