captainbeefheart
-
Posts
1422 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Forums
Events
Gallery
Posts posted by captainbeefheart
-
-
I wouldn't say they are easy to find, you certainly have less options for non-standard values but they are out there. The toughest one is certainly 13uF.
One could always parallel an 8.2uF and 4.7uF to get darn close enough to 13uF. Panasonic ECQ polyester caps I was using in amplifiers for a while and they are fantastic. They are metalized but so isn't the JEM Tecate caps. Best part is all 4 caps to do two networks is only $10.
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/panasonic-electronic-components/ECQ-E2475KF/56516
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/panasonic-electronic-components/ECQ-E1825JF/2567785
-
1
-
-
Datasheet for all interested parties: https://www.cde.com/resources/catalogs/WMF.pdf
Typical foil properties of high pulse strength, fast rise time and high current. The thicker film layers have some advantages to them.
-
1
-
-
$44 bucks to do my E networks, CDE polyester and foil axial for those that don't want metalized types
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/cornell-dubilier-electronics-cde/WMF2W2K-F/1930479
-
20 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said:
I don't care if it's a monopoly. Nice 2's and 13's are impossible to find - unless you want to buy 500 of each.
And this is primarily for the people that don't want to veer in another direction.
With that said, it would be outstanding to see the differences measured out.
2's and 3's aren't that hard to find, 13uF run about $7.00 and the 2uF are much cheaper.
WIMA FKP is a high quality polyester and foil but they don't have 13uF but you can parallel caps to get there. In a crossover network where the tweeter inductance is naturally going to impede very high frequencies anyway any resonance or increased lead inductance shouldn't be any issue at all since I see these anomalies in the RF range.
-
I have pretzels this time..............
-
1
-
-
Plumbers solder is acid based flux which cleans the metal piping. This is the main issue with using it for electrical work. Electrical solder is rosin core solder.
I also use Kester, I have different types including 60/40 which works good, it has a lower melting point. Just don't use the acid flux with plumbers solder, bad stuff.
-
Here I found it for anyone interested in construction of film caps. I also added a reference of properties for various dielectrics.
-
1
-
-
3 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said:
I've been in contact with several people who have recapped with the Tecate polyesters from JEM. They like them. No complaints. So, I think it's more than possible that better film quality and construction may make this metalized capacitor a better sounding part than it used to be. Lead attachments too, which used to be pressed in using a conductive paste, are now spot welded after an end spray is applied.
I very much feel like it's just easier to just use the part Klipsch recommends at this point.
It could very well be the construction of the flat pack and how they layer the film. I have a nice visual of different construction methods. I think the better metalized films have opposite plates staggered to either end of the package and then the leads and plates are pooled together with a weld.
I'll post the image if I can find it.
-
8 minutes ago, billybob said:
Yes, not the *Chief so only he could say. As an observer from afar, could not possibly say. Can say that gentleman is a man of few words. Explaination
can only come from him, if so chooses to elaborate more.
Thanks!
I can totally relate. For example I build someone an amp that uses a specific power tube and the person ends up installing a tube that gives say less power at higher amounts of distortion that the circuit wasn't optimized for. Half of me thinks this will make my amp not as good as it could be sort of making me look like I don't know what I'm doing but the other half says well it's his now and he can do what he likes and if he likes the way it sounds now that's all that matters. If it gets shown to other people with the wrong tubes I'm certain they will tell their story about what it came with and what he did by changing the tubes etc... so it gets me off the hook so to say. I'd just explain to anyone that purchased it second hand that those weren't the intended tubes and explain the differences and let the new owner decide what to do. Who am I to tell someone that they shouldn't like extra distortion or whatever. I aim to please and if that pleases them then so be it.
I also will freely admit, I just like to be a giant nerd. The capacitor thing has been beaten to death will no real measured data so it's something right up my ally. Look what we found with the tweeter protection diodes, people claimed to hear a difference with them out of circuit so I did some measurements and clearly showed that the diodes start to begin their conduction before 5.1v, this is common and how diodes work. Unfortunately they start to add distortion below the 2 watt protection limit. There was a clear increase in harmonic distortion between 1-2 watts compared to the circuit without the diodes.
-
2
-
-
4 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said:
With their 15 watt iron, the wrong solder, no heat sinks, and TA-DA!
Uhg.
I do mostly agree with you.
Hey I see far too many posts of people trying to fix their amps that haven't a clue what they are doing, but no amount of how wrong they are going to do it will change their minds so it's best to just help them instead of letting them destroy something nice.
Of course it's better to send things off to the professionals, after all it's what they do and you'll get the best results that way. I have seen people use plumbers solder to make electronic repairs and other horror stories. As you mentioned the 15 watt iron that takes way too long to heat the joint up all while destroying the component they are installing. You want fast heat into the joint, if the joint is too close to the part add a heatsink to keep heat out of the part. I cringe a lot but I also know they aren't going to send their gear to me or anyone.
-
3 minutes ago, Curious_George said:
There are only a handful of manufacturers that make capacitors anyway. If you knew all the brands that were made in 4 factories you would die laughing. Just like there are only a few who make the laminations for transformers.
Exactly.
Here is my stance.
I completely agree that Roy just wants the Klipsch speakers to sound their best, or at least how they intended to and I don't blame him. My goal is to make a list of capacitors that will achieve the same results as what they intend. We all know there will be some people that will choose a component for whatever reasons regardless of any information they are given but I think a "sanctioned" list of parts that keep the same transfer function as intended will help everyone. It helps Klipsch keep their speakers sounding how they want them and it keeps owners happy by keeping their speakers going as long as possible. Many people pick these up from someone selling them and they want them to be the best they can be, a lot of people will totally use a part that is deemed acceptable to keep the original intended sound, I know I would. The best part is they don't have to pay an engineer to waste time finding parts that work in their networks as intended, I'll do it for free to keep the Klipsch sound alive.
The tricky thing is people don't hear the same. I have tried electrolytics, paper, polypropylene, and polyester in these networks and without critical listening the differences were very subtle. To me polypropylene seemed to be a little edgy with the treble, but someone that has attenuated hearing in the upper frequency range might welcome less losses up there and choose a polypropylene. To me the most natural sounding were paper and polyester, the paper sounded maybe a smidge "cleaner" but I chalked that one up to psychological effects. If I go back and forth on something in my mind I just declare it not worth worrying about.
So I think what I want is actually the same as what Klipsch wants, to find correct parts that work as intended in their designs. But, if my measurements show differences with certain types then someone might feel they will like that better for their ears and preference. It's all about cutting through the BS and getting some hard data to work with instead of just talk.
-
Let me word it a little differently.
Say someone sells some old heritage speakers where the capacitors have degraded badly effecting the sound. This will paint Klipsch speakers in a much more negative light than any fresh capacitors installed into the networks that meet the specific values.
To me the capacitor thing is very subtle, I hardly see it as a game changer for your average person as they will never know the difference or hear it, they just care if music is playing and it sounds good enough. With old parts nobody wins but not everyone is going have the money to send the networks off to the licensed repair facility and have them repaired, they are far more likely to search the web, end up here and change the parts themselves since it's quite easy to do. This brings a lot of fun and I think better results to keeping these speakers alive and running well. It's mostly the design of the circuit not the brand make of passives that make it the way it is. The latter will make very slight differences but as I already said, any fresh caps are better than old dried up dead ones, yes even electrolytics.
-
3
-
-
4 minutes ago, billybob said:
Yes unless there is a reversal from the *Chief, part brands are out, last I read.
May could use XYZ as unique identifiers. And PM them as the list expands.
I won't buck the rules but just curious to why we can't name parts. Klipsch doesn't make capacitors so I don't see why they would worry about mentioning brands.
Guys like to tinker and the discussion of swapping around parts with the heritage line brings a lot of attention to the name Klipsch. If they start policing this I don't see it as in their best interest since the buzz around the speakers won't be as large. I think that's part of the reason they are so popular, the large boards and layout make it easy for a novice to tweak the networks. I don't think this paints Klipsch as deficient in any way, I mean look at all the car people that like to make their car "theirs" by tweaking them but it makes their customers into loyalists. Take that away and people feel like they are in a police state which nobody likes.
I'm not complaining, I'll adhere to the rules but I'm just trying put myself in their shoes and see why this is an issue.
-
1
-
-
10 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said:
I'm more interested in "why" people are hearing what they're hearing with these modification/changes.
This is all I'm interested in. If it's audible it's measurable we just need to know what to measure and how to interpret it. I usually find there is a logical explanation for things and like to add it into my "matrix" as you so eloquently stated it.
13 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said:You will need an aftermarket autotransformer at some point. Just PM me when you'd like for me to ship it.
You piqued my interest. Do they have an inherent issue I don't know about? Good to know where I can find them and I thank you kind sir.
15 minutes ago, Curious_George said:Post way Cappy. Chief said make a new thread, so here it is.
Excellent!
-
15 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said:
I was hoping this was the Captain's dedicated thread for measurements. We've already had a thousand threads like this one and they always end badly. I predict you'll all be banned by the end of the week.
If Nick doesn't mind me posting the results in here that would be okay with me. I was poking around last night for some other 2uF caps to use for the testing process. Test the networks with the approved Tecate caps then swap to another type of dielectric but I guess any physically different capacitor will be fine to add to the testing results.
I was trying to get more done on Shakey's amp but even though my work bench is good height for bench work I still have to lean over a tad to do my soldering and work and it's just not fun right now. Don't want to get sloppy because of pain and rushing the job ya know.
-
Wow what have I missed hahaha
Trying to get some things done but my back is just not cooperating, I'm taking a small break and having more coffee with you lads. I'm trying to get caught up on the convo but none of it makes much sense, were posts removed or something?
Are we not allowed to name part brands? I'm so confused right now
-
Everyone get your popcorn ready
-
1
-
-
52 minutes ago, Chief bonehead said:
You are looking at it wrong. It’s the whole transfer function of the network. You need to start a new thread.
How am I looking at it wrong? I said test the network. Or if it wasn't clear to you, that's exactly what I meant. Because like I mentioned you cannot test the transfer function of just a capacitor, we need it in the actual circuit.
5 hours ago, captainbeefheart said:I think it's probably just faster to test the network as a whole circuit and plot the output vs input with the JEM caps
^^^^^^^^^^^This is what I said^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I was going to test the properties of the capacitors (esr at various fequencies, leakage, series inductance, loss angle etc..) and also plot transfer function with them in the networks but testing the caps is a waste of time since all we are concerned with is it's interaction in the network.
And yes when I have some time to pull the E networks with the JEM caps installed I'll start a new thread with the results.
-
Just quickly I'd say loss factor is one of the major differences that could effect the transfer function of the network.
This is possibly why some may consider the polypropylene caps as brighter. Losses, especially at high treble frequencies will be greater with the polyester. So amplitude out of the network could be higher with the polypropylene caps, especially at higher frequencies where reactance is reduced and losses across the ESR will dominate impedance.
-
1 hour ago, 001 said:
@captainbeefheart thanks for the explanation, i can follow most of that & it does help. being im just a low level hobbyist like many on here & out there, my questions were more an attempt to get a dumbed down version or a voltage curve for dummies explanation of what we will actually hear using a common PP cap in place of the original PE caps. its been mentioned a few times that PP caps have been used for almost 20 years & most people really like the sound from what i've read, even if its different than original by some amount. room acoustics & speaker placement probably have a much bigger affect on the sound of a speaker than a simple cap swap.
the transfer function of the complete network or how to measure it is way above my pay grade, but i appreciate you taking the time to explain it better. all i can say is that using PP caps in my klipsch & other brands of speakers didnt make them sound bad or take away much if anything from what i hear & enjoy about klipsch speakers. in the future i will consider trying jem or other mylar film caps, was just hoping for a little more info on all this.
apologies to the OP for sidetracking the thread.
To try and go through the different parameters of the two dielectrics, polypropylene vs polyester and how it may relate to sonics in a speaker balance/crossver network would take quite a bit of time and it would be quite technical.
For now I'll post a basic reference table of the properties between different film capacitors. You can then go ahead and research each parameter and how it may effect performance. Or at least narrow down some questions you may have. Hope this helps at least show some of the differences between them.
-
My E networks in my heresy are so simple with two 2uF caps, they came with the Tecate caps from JEM when I bought them last year.
I think it's probably just faster to test the network as a whole circuit and plot the output vs input with the JEM caps since we know these are sanctioned to be the "Klipsch sound". Then I can swap various 2uF caps in and plot the filter outputs and compare the differences. This should show any and all differences between types to see if the specified caps do have a unique transfer function that is desired. It will probably be best to start an entire new thread for the sake of keeping the conversation kept to capacitor replacements for crossover networks.
I will already state that anything other than the JEM caps will be construed as a "modification" so that's how any cap other than the Tecate types should be referred to. Even if we achieve the same transfer function as them, they will still be considered a "modification" so please keep this in mind to respect Klipsch and JEM. The only sanctioned replacement parts come through JEM but we can at least be scientific about "modifying" the networks and showing the results from said modifications. There are others besides myself that are interested in other replacement capacitors besides the ones from JEM, so a database of how the plots may change may help determine which direction some people will go. If there is an audible difference then it should be measurable in one form or another. I'm also interested in possibly showing the linearity differences between different capacitors. Those will be different measurements on the capacitors alone outside of network. It may be prudent to also measure distortion at various output powers into a load through the networks and not just view amplitude vs frequency. Distortion results may clue us into some of the sonic differences.
-
4
-
-
Since foil caps need much thicker film layers, 5uM thickness compared to a metalized type of .05uM thickness they are going to be much larger in size. So it's certainly possible there is a difference in many regards to the properties of each. You'll get much more of the dielectric properties from a foil type since the layers are much thicker. I'll need to run a linearity check between a metalized type and a foil type and see if the foil has a more pronounced curve from the thicker dielectric.
I do know when they send out product documents listing applications foil types are sold for high pulse applications. The thicker film gives them more protection between plates.
The question @001 was asking about "voltage curve". Since nobody is answering you I can't speak for what is inside their minds but I can give you my thoughts. Voltage curve is vague, but I assume they are talking about transfer function. Which a capacitor alone cannot really have a transfer function as it's a two terminal device. Typically when we talk transfer functions it's a comparison between in and out (2 ports, 4 poles). The crossover network can have a transfer function and they are most likely talking about amplitude vs frequency plots. So input is swept flat through the frequency range while we compare the output to it. Plotted out you'll see a specific shape known as the transfer function. The steepness or "slope" of the network is a transfer function. Phase shift is another transfer function of the network that can be plotted out, again the phase difference between input of the network compared to the output of the network. In theory if the outputs of the network look identical to what the original networks looked like then the amplitude vs frequency transfer function has been maintained and is their goal. It's possible using different types of capacitors that have say higher ESR will effect the transfer function of the filter, the higher frequencies going to the tweeter may be attenuated more than desired and so the transfer function plotted don't match up to the original intended networks. There is probably some papers the engineers have that show these plots for each of their networks and so they try to keep them performing the same when changing part types. So long as the output plots match then they should sound the same.
That's at least how I took what was said.
-
2
-
-
I doubt it's the relays that are the problem.
First you need to determine if the protection is telling the relays to go open. Probe the coil side while listening to music and see if power is present when the channel goes out. I haven't looked at the schematic but what often happens is the large value signal shunt caps going to the protection IC fail no longer shunting all the signal to ground, especially low frequencies. The IC thinks there is DC at the output and opens the relays. Very common issue.
-
1
-
-
20 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:
Yes they do.
Well the comparison was apple to apple, but Mcintosh to Gala.
Foil and metalized can use the same dielectric and will have the same dielectric properties. I'm in agreement and can see a difference electrically due to construction of them. You'll achieve much more plate to plate surface area with metalized making probably the dielectric properties more pronounced with foil types along with having different parasitic properties on top of that.
-
1
-
Crossover Capacitors and Crossovers In General
in Technical/Restorations
Posted
They are only "crap" because the price is so low. Panasonic makes and sells so many the price gets lowered, it has nothing to do with the quality. I'm sure you are aware of this.