hornsandtubes

I am not "yankee" WTF ever that is. The whole crux of what pisses me off: Heritage guys that think they have a superior and flawless speaker, and the new stuff just can't compare. Anyone that outright slams systems or calls them mediocre. Elitism and snobbery can KMA. After reading Paul W. Klipsch's book, he admitted the Horns had flaws. Just put in a 1ms pulse, you get 3 out, thanks to group delay. Horn throat resonances and coloration. Overbright upper mids that only level out with tubes and a HUGE room. Rolling off at 17khz, less transparancy than new. Why do I care? Really, it doesn't matter. But it's time to take those rose colored glasses off and admit that there are audible flaws in heritage designs. They are not superior in every way...period, measurable fact. I will end this thread, and my involvment in this forum. It is pointless: rather than experiance, you just post fanboy worship and condescending rhetoric. I submit you are the over sensitive one. If I accomplished nothing here, fine. But know this: No one on the face of this earth can get me to think heritage is better. No one can sway me from sheer enjoyment. So all you blowhard haters out there can get bent. I hope I pissed you off, you deserve it. Get over yourselves.

You must be a) wanna be moderator Huge brennen fan c) heritage fan d) Hallucinating i am someone else e) All of the above. Sorry if I actually know there are obvious flaws in heritage products, and they are not perfect. No, I do not glaze over thier faults, nor do I worship them. Anyone who doesn't admit that has rose colored glasses, and has had too much to drink. Also, anyone who calls my stuff "mediocre" can KMA. Not to the left. Not to the right. But in the groove.

Funny you should mention mediocre brennen, That is just what heritage is. The CW have more glaring flaws than I can shake a stick at. They are ugly to boot The Rf7 is far from medicore, and I have bass with the sub that is *FAR* superior to *ANY* heritage in terms of depth and SPL at 16-25hz. No brag, it's physics and fact. So, tough s--- if you think the Rf-7 is mediocre, your loss. Stick with the ugly boxes and thier flaws because you jerk a tear for nostalgia. I will stick with modern, and IMO dust the over bright ear bleeding heritage, and thier lack of lower 1st octave bass, or sheer boominess and distortion in that range I know, if you MOD the CW with better oil filled caps, or maybe TRT, or auricaps with cardas silver , and after mArket drivers you get: SOMETHING THAT ISN'T A KLIPSCH PRODUCT. I couldn't disagree more with you, not even if i tried. Your opinion just simply isn't fact, but an opinion. Edgar horns and Avante garde, as well as a capella slaughter heritage klipsch also, and they look a lot better too. ISN'T THE NET AMAZING? LOUD MOUTH JACK-OFF'S CAN ACTUALLY POST AND TRY TO CONVINCE ME MY OWN STUFF IS "MEDIOCRE" WHILE THIER OWN GEAR IS MEASURABLY FLAWED IN MANY WAYS. PRETTY HYPOCRITICAL I'D SAY.

Well, here goes: Thanks for the wholly unnecessary physics primer. It took me 5 seconds at the most to realize how ugly the cw's were. Looked like a box. that didn't take long term experiance. The Cw's bass is not as competant at 16-28hz as almost any semi decent 12" sub I can name. Output, and quality. The CW has significantly high distortion below 28hz. It additionally has much lower output at 20hz that a plethora of 12" subs, including svs, HSU, velodyne, VMPS, M&K and so on. That is pretty much varifiable by comparing the cornwalls measurements. Some music sounds poorly defined on the CW, loose and sloppy compared to a sub or other fullrange speaker systems. The techno I played did not sound controlled very well at all on the CW. The CW sounds good on most music types, but again, low bass is not that impressive to me anymore.

I hate wide front baffle, and ugly speakers! Slim towers and stand mounts image soo much better! I also would rather have the new towers that need a sub, because althought they cut off at 32hz, the bass is tighter than those boomy/floppy 15" cones stuck in ugly, wide cabinets. Sub bass is far superior to 15" old cones that cannot play all forms of music as well. Not to mention waf is low because they are pug ugly. So what if the CW BOOM out a lot of 30hz? it's lower quality and looser than a sub doing that. I did my listening to old CW's and disliked the bass and appearance. I don't regret that at all, and would never trade my setup for any 15" , wide front system in a ugly rectangular box. There, I took my turn at "The expected banter"

HMMM 281 feet... That would be a new category in "farfeild listening" The HSU sub is like this: The bottom has a port, the 12" driver fires Upward. The sub takes speaker level inputs, and can be used lying down or as I have it, on some 4" steel spike feet. It has a kind of bipolar bass effect. Corner loading helps, like all subs. I like it because it is very musical, and for well under a grand, I have not heard *ANY* "powered box" sub that is this loud, this low, and musical, not just an HT boom box. It does *NOT* have the output at 30hz like the big Klipsch rsw-15, but it outdoes the klipsch from 16hz-25 both in spl and musicality.

You posted a Q about the sub, I could not respond I was very busy. Anyway here goes: The HSU sub is sitting in the corner of the 14w x28l x 9' room, about 1 foot behind the RF-7's. It is crossed over at 35-37hz +/- with 250w/ amp on full up, in phase with Rf-7 running full range. I have a 1" thick 18" plywood circle I got at home depot as a base for the sub. 35-37 hz seems perfect. I seem to have achieved *THE* point in which the Rf-7's taper down and the HSU blends seamlessly. I think this is largely a function of room geometry, location and size of room entrances, and proximity of the RF-7 about 3.5 feet from back, and 2 feet from side wall toed in. The floor is carpet over wood floor. The HSU test disc did in fact showcase the prodigious ability of low bass from this sub with a combination of music and test tracks. Tuning by ear, the combo works exceptionally well, this was evident by switching the sub off and retrying the same track. The RF-7's do not *REALLY* need a sub any more than Forte or cornwall would. However, I feel that the bass extension is improved on material that demands it. The bass is also not there unless it is supposed to be: no artificial overlap or bloating. Samplings of some material I used: Gladiator soundtrack Al Di Meola- Kiss my Axe Telarc Space spectacular Telarc Classical thunder Chick Corea: beneith the mask Andreas Vollenweider/ down to the moon Kodo drums Mickey Hart: Planet drum/spirulinga Trilok Gurturu Empire Brass: passage I like this system. No changes unless I add an SACD player.

NOS & Dean: Indeed, I am who I am. I have not posted as any other moniker. I have no reason to do so no matter what any blowhard JERK has to say about it. My final word on heritage: I like heritage. Unlike what I am reading in places here, they do have obvious flaws. They are not perfect, and do not "blow away" everything. I chose the RF-7. Nothing more to say or argue about. That being said: initial setup: I am using Apature pure silver interconnects, and awg 12 ofc speaker cable. I have some Apature silver speaker cable but am staying with the OFC. Initial impressions: As I stated before, I have only used stand mounted speakers and slim column type. My last speakers were Soliloquy, for those who care. Very musical and tube friendly. The RF-7 were initially very stiff, and a bit hard sounding in the treble with a bit of forwardness. I played a variety of Chick Corea, Bela Fleck, and some Dave Weckyl to loosen up the drivers a bit. It was startling to note right off, the unblinking detail, impact and sound pressure level that a few watts could make. For my room, the HSU sub is helping balance out the treble energy, and give the bass a very deep, tight and musically satisfying foundation. As any other HSU owner can attest, these subs go well with horns. Dr Bruce Edgar recommended the sub with his slimlines . I did not go with the slimlines because they do not extend much past 16khz rolloff. They also do not have the low end of the RF-7. I could forsee splurging on the TITANS one day. SVS guys: do not use this statement that I have anything against SVS, since it is a similar type sub. The SVS's I looked at all had a 40hz low crossover. I liked the fact HSU can cross over at 30hz, giving me more flexibility to optimize speakers blending with the satellites. It will have to be at least a week, at least 50 hours of break in before I can evaluate further. But I like what I hear so far. If *ANYONE* thinks I should have purchased anything different, feel free to send me a certified check or money order covering the item, to include shipping and tax, and then...I'll try it.

I have no opinion on "Cary" products. I never auditioned them. I blocked out any components with those price tags, no matter what they are. So what does "cary" have to do with anything? This forum is too weird for me.

The only thing that is clicking is your sad imagination . What in the hell are you talking about pass labs ???? Other than the reference you made that passion was made by ASl, what are you taking about there also? You seem damn sure that I am someone else. You lost me sparky. I think it's another defense mechanism you have. All dish, no eat. BTW: the sales guys name is Sam, he works at a Sacramento good guys. the one that was made famous in 1991 by a hostage situation invoving vietnamese militants. Nothing like "inventing" things there mobile brainless. I can see dean was right about "hertiage bigotry" He failed to warn me what an *******, and a bigot that mobile brainless is. I give up. I come here to get solicitations about a new system, I get railroaded by a jack-off with issues, and hallucinations that I am someone else. Mobile brainless: get over yourself and your system. I give up on this forum. Mobile brainless has nothing to add except animosity. What is the damn point of this place? get a life you zero!

Holy jesus, Chief! I wasnt putting down the RF-7 just talking about the merits of the CW after having owned it. When someone says the CW bass is all over the place, and I have found otherwise, what's wrong with talking about it? ---> very hyper emotional knee jerk reaction. Who said the bass was all over the place? I said it was a touch too loose for me and I also stated it may have been the room because that design needed more space and a better setup. You go ballistic and make it seem as if I trashed the CW. You went off the deep end by artifically inflating my comments to your angry interpretation. This also causes another guy to piss on my situation by proclaiming the klipschorn better in every way. What kind of BS is this to just piss on someone in such a way? Is this one of those "my toy is better than your toy" arguments? or is it "You bought a lesser product, so i look down on you?" NONSENSE!!! Besides, that second post was for Allan in talking about CW with electronic music and rock. ---> I got that you totally disagree. Since you were not in the room with me to hear the demo of the CW, then that is an empty statement. I already mitigated my findings via room limits affecting front ported design. Again, not once did I say it was not "good" I simply said "Too loose for me" I dont think anyone was totally dismissing the RF-7 at all. Hell, a lot of the guys here love the RF-7. But if you are going to make a statement about the CW and dont expect someone to counter it with some more experience listening to it in a variety of systems, then what's a forum for? Why the soft as daisy skin? Has this place gotten that soft? 2003 is a harsh year so far. ---> You are the oversensitive one here. Pissing on the RF-7 "No one is totally dismissing the RF-7" that's mighty white of you to stoop to admitting that. Why the hell does someone need to counter? the asinine juvanile desire just to piss on people and piss them off? "Hey man, you almost bought something 1/2 as good as my stuff there". Sounds like that to me. What is a forum without some banter. In NO WAY OR WHERE did I say your purchase of the RF-7 was bad per say. Although I did give you some sh** on the Mr. Bass list. But do you think it possible to enlist for a sense of humor here? -->The banter is ok as long as no one mentions they think less of you or the CW than you do. kind of like you give, but can't take it. you have a wide mean streak, and you are not funny at all. MR THIN SKIN.... Why take this so seriously? I thought MAya of the Shepherd Kings would have driven the point home. She is a genius. A goddess. The Beauty.... And totally tongue in cheek. --->maybe she is. You go off like someone killed your dog when you think they even remotely insulted your CW's...even when they didn't. First Yankee, now this. Hell, I cant even play any more.... I need some warm milk. ---> I suggest a strong sedative for you also. You really need one. take one outside in the fresh air. Listen to some mellow music and collect yourself. you need to come off your high horse and quit pretending you own this place.

Item 1: I posted the bass list from work. Item 2: I could not download and try any deep bass mp3 demos at work (firewall) Item 3: Klipschorns: I would not buy the originals, but I would buy the new ones. I should not even mention it anyways, because I have no space for the klipschorns.In a couple of years when I buy a new place, I shall buy some new klipschorns. Now, they are irrelevant. Item 4: I don't know why "Mobile Homeless" even bothered add to this post. Is it because I used the "C" word? Correct me if I am wrong here, but he seems brash, defensive and complaintive. Is this guy the owner of this server? This dude has "issues" I think I'll adjourn to go listen to my system. If this is the way that this forum is, I want no part of the "Heritage" vs "reference" argument, I made MY choice and I will continue to enjoy it reguardless. I chose not to buy cornwalls and I do not regret that for a moment. I suggest if you are going to get so rude and emotional about it that you should disconnect the internet for a month and get a life. All that time you spent complaining, arguing and posting could be time better spent listening. So folks, for those of you who were polite and helpful, thanks. For he who posted when I asked for RF-7 owners, please, back away from your PC, and get out of the house once in a while.

List of deep bass recordings: Deep Bass CDs Telarc CD80097: The Ruffatti Organ in Davies Symphony Hall, Michael Murray. Try tracks 1 and 11 -- sub 20Hz bass. Telarc CD80146: Star Tracks II. Try track 2 for sub to mid 20Hz bass. Phillips 412 619-2: Saint Saens Organ Symphony, San Francisco Symphony, Edo de Waart. Tones reach down to 16Hz on track 2, with the purest tones occuring at 9:00 into the track. Abnormally high gain is needed to play this at wall-shaking levels, so be sure to turn the volume down after the movement! Dorial DOR 90117: Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition. Try tracks 5 and 15. Recorded on the great organ of the Tonhalle, Zurich. London 410 164-2: Prokofiev Alexander Nevsky, Cleveland Orchestra and Chorus, Ricardo Chailly, conductor. The bass drum in this CD reaches 25Hz. Argo 417 159-2: Hindemith Organ Works, Peter Huford, organist. Try track 5 at 4:45. The 19Hz note here is 6dB louder than the highest level at any other frequency on the entire disc. Start with moderate level settings. London 410 145-2: Respighi Pines of Rome, etc., Charles Dutoit, Montreal Symphony. There is an almost pure 22 Hz note on track 4 between 1:22 and 2:29. Argo 414 420-2: Mendelssohn Organ Works, Peter Huford, organist. Very loud 19Hz on track 8. Preceed with caution when playing this disc! Geffen 24233-2: Enya Watermarks. Lots of low bass on this New Age music (20s to low 30s). Try track 10. Reference Recording RR-59CD: Pomp and Pipes! This CD has sub 20Hz signals on tracks 4 and 9. Reference Recording RR-S3CD: HDCD Sampler. Excellent for testing bass tightness, especially on track 1. Sheffield Lab CD-14/20: The Sheffield Drum & Track Record.The Drum Record tracks are excellent for testing bass tightness, especially track 5. BPM CD-460: Thom Rotella Band. Bass solo in track 12 is excellent for testing bass transients. Private Music 01005-82089-2: Jennifer Warnes -- The Hunter. Tracks 8 and 9 have very tight mid to low bass. Warner Bros 262562-2: Bella Fleck and the Flecktones, Flight of the Cosmic Hippos. Track 4 has extremely high levels of deep and mid bass. Verve 314 517 657: Tom Grant, The View from Here. Try track 3. LaserLight 15 313: Virgil Fox. Try track 4 for sub 20Hz from 1:30 into track. Newtown NTN2210: Bass Outlaws, Illegal Bass. Try track 12, "Stereo Bass" -- ultra loud bass in the low to sub-20Hz range.

The listening room at the soundwell is a cluttered, carpet covered room, with various types of older gear. The room is about 20 x 18 +/- Under the same circumstances, the Forte's sounded tighter than the cornwall with every bit I played. Test cd's John Williams (movie collection),McCoy tyner: supertrios,Propellerheads DECKSANDDRUMSANDROCKANDROLL Van Halen 1,Yoyo Ma: SOLO, Eva cassidy: Imagine There is no way the cornwall sounded as tight in the same situation. Now, given better acoustics, bigger room, better electronics for both speakers, that would be a more scientific test. The room could have simply been to small, or had overwhelmingly bad acoustics for a vented enclosure. Maybe it's not a fair test, but the la scala and heresy bass also sounded tighter than the cornwall. "Boomy" might be a stretch, but that's an old school description of "bloomy" bass, with more sustain than I am after. I can't say that I found it more or less natural than the other models, but it was looser. The cornwall itself is boxy looking, and not very attractive looking to me. Someone here restained a pair, and that is a drastic improvement, but I would not have adequate room for them. I think that i prefer the imaging of narrow front baffle speakers also. Up until now, my systems have been narrow baffle floorstanders or monitors.

"Heritage bigots" I am beginning to grasp the passionate ways people defend klipsch. I have a friend on the net who has some Cornwalls. He was the driving force behind my seeking older klipsch. He swore up and down that Klipsch was his favorite and in his words: "New klipsch sound totally pathetic by compare" Each model I heard had thier strong points, but my honest opinion is that the classic series treble extension is not as good. The originals I listened to seemed to be audibly tapered off, and hence less transparent. After reading up on horns, I am not sure that treble and midrange through a long, square metal horn is the best idea. Seems like you are asking for it there! The old metal horns had more pronounced horn shout at times than was evident from the tractrix. I can ignore "horn colorations" because they aren't always bad. But there is so little of that from the new Klipsch, I prefer the plastic tractrix with titanium driver to metal horns+silk or phenolic driver. Kind of a role reversal of parts there eh? I already stated that the Cornwall, while impressive, wasn't a tight and crisp bass, but a slower, boomier disco-type bass. This sounds cool on techno and hiphop, but for me, a big no no for classical and jazz. I'd say that's why the Forte worked the best for me, but *STILL* didn't reach as high, or low as the RF-7. Not nearly as pretty either!* *damn that RF-7 cherry finish looks great with orange oil applied!..Smells good too.