Using 5.1 Ultras with another amp? Looking for a work around.

[nightcabbage]

I like quality sound, but I am not an expert on the subject. That being said, I was hoping someone could help me.

I have an original Creative X-Fi sound card with the front bay. I have also had a set of Klipsch ProMedia 5.1 Ultra speakers for many years. I just love that setup. Quite frankly, I have not liked any other set of surround sound computer speakers that I've ever heard. I really REALLY like my Klipsch.

Unfortunately, there was a part or two on the amp inside the sub of the Klipsch speakers that made them duds after a while, as I'm sure most of you know. I actually sent it to a guy on eBay who replaced the parts with "upgraded" ones that were supposed to not overheat. Unfortunately I had trouble on down the road after a year or two again anyway. The speakers started to have a squealing noise come out of them, then the right rear channel went dead. I opened it up, and when I was fidgeting with one of the BASH HC1011 chips that I heard squealing (tilting it back and forth a bit as I saw some people on forums had done), sometimes the rear right channel would come back! The problem was I couldn't get rid of the squealing entirely, and it was so touchy that between the time that I got it working and the time I screwed the amp back into the sub housing then sometimes all my speakers except my sub would stop working. Well, eventually the whole system went dead. My lovely speakers are dead again and I am really upset.

I've come to terms with the fact that perhaps there is no repairing my beloved Klipsch 5.1 Ultras in a lasting way. I was really hopeful that the change/upgrade of those parts on the amp would give me many more years of life out of my favorite speakers, but they are now dead again. I am almost considering ordering one of those BASH HC1011 chips and replacing it myself, but I am nervous that it won't work and that perhaps it wasn't just that one part that “blew”. But the speakers themselves are all still good right? I enjoy the sound they put out, so shouldn't I be able to drive them some other way?

Here's what I'm thinking: there's really not a lot of difference between my Klipsch satellite speakers and my Klipsch home theater satellite speakers. My computer speakers connect to the amp on the back of my sub, my home theater speakers connect to the back of my receiver (which, as I understand, is also an amp of sorts). Couldn't I just get a cheap “receiver” or “amp” sort of a thing that I can connect my Klipsch 5.1 Ultra computer speakers to? Would I need to get an entirely new sub since that doesn't connect to anything with wires? Do I really even need a “receiver”, since my X-Fi is doing all the decoding and stuff, or can I just get some sort of “amp” to power the satellites?

IN OTHER WORDS: How do I salvage the majority of my Klipsch 5.1 Ultra system with minimal extra cost/parts? If I do, will the sound be the same thing that I'm used to?

I really wish I knew more about this, as I'm sure the solution is easier than I'm making it. I can't bring myself to go buy any of the other computer speakers on the market right now. I've tried the best reviewed ones and they don't hold a candle to my Klipsch Ultra system. I just want my Ultra's working again!

Thanks to anyone that can help. (Informed answers only please.)

(On a side note: What really irks me off about all this is that Klipsch knew there were problems with the amps, denied it with one hand while discontinuing the series with the other, and then didn't even do us the favor of releasing a newer set of 5.1 computer speakers! They go into the computer market, get us hooked, screw us over, and then leave us hanging. Sure, I really wish I would not have wasted money on a product that would fail so easily, but the truth of the matter is if they had an updated 5.1 Ultra system that fixed the problem and was at least on par or better than the original Ultra system, I would probably have purchased it by now! WHAT ARE THEY THINKING?)

[nashbridges]

Hey Nightcabbage, this is a repeat post of what I did from another thread, but it sounds like I did what you would like to do:

I bought a the Sony STR-DH500 because it was a cheap 5.1 receiver. It replaced the the control unit of the Klipsch satellite speakers. Here's a picture of the back of it:

;

The satellite speakers are hooked up to the appropriate jacks. The subwoofer out hooks up to the new plate amp I bought, which is also BASH powered.

Here's a picture of the new BASH amp in the subwoofer box before I got the wood blank installed to cover the blank space. I had to use a Dremel to trim out 1/2 inch on either side of the existing recess in the wood so the new amp would fit:

The line level inputs were great, but the LFE input coupled to the single subwoofer RCA output on the receiver gave me the best sound for TV and the computer. Since the receiver was doing the work, here's what worked for me:

• Sony receiver satellite settings: All speakers set to small
• Crossover frequency set on the receiver: 130
• Frequency cutoff on the sub amp: Highest possible - the receiver handles the cutoff
• Phase: 0 degrees. My subwoofer is close to the rest of the speakers, but position is everything. You might be better off switching it to 180 if the sub is placed far away or on a wall.

I wired the sub speakers with the same wiring Klipsch did. It's a dual fire sub, so they have a positive on one sub speaker, a negative on another, and a crossover cable running from the negative on one speaker to the posive on the other. You still only have two wires, Red and Black, that will accept input. The new amp had two wires, Red and Black, and I connected them to the red and black wires in the sub. Very easy.

The new amp will blow out the speakers if the volume gets too loud, but since I have the receiver handling it I'm not terribly worried. I have the volume on the plate amp set to 80%. I get more trouble from the amp when the cables aren't plugged in, and I had a bit of worry when the volume was set all the way up and I touched the RCA cable. It shook the floor with a ground leak.

I can send more description if you would like. This is what is working for me.

[nashbridges]

Oh, and I'm sure you could use a regular receiver without adding an amp to your subwoofer unless, like me, you wanted your subwoofer back.

I'm also sure you can get just an amp, but it's probably going to be cheaper for you to get a receiver unless you happen upon a used amp somewhere.

[nashbridges]

Final post, I promise. Here's the cost breakdown:

$150 for the receiver (you can probably find it cheaper now)

$150 for the plate amp, although if you go here:

http://www.parts-express.com/wizards/searchResults.cfm?srchExt=CAT&srchCat=505

There are some cheaper ones. Of course, you can find all this stuff used on eBay for cheaper. This worked out for me because I didn't have a receiver for my office TV, and I wanted to use the 5.1 Ultra's as the surround system for the TV as well. Now I can switch back and forth between the computer for games and the TV for movies, and the speakers sound great!

[nightcabbage]

Oh man, your post is great! I'm so glad I found someone doing the same thing I want to do. I'm really glad this worked for you. I do have a few questions though.

1) I see here it looks like you have connected your computer to the amp with optical. I've read that the SPDIF output port on X-Fi's (and all creative cards) just send the signal out without any processing. That's great it you want your receiver to handle the decoding on things like movies you're playing on your computer, but then I guess I won't get stero upmixing with my Creative card's CMSS and, most importantly, I don't think I'll get 3D audio in games which use API systems like EAX. I suppose the workaround is to get a receiver that has multi-channel RCA inputs right? And then I could just get 3 cords that go from 3.5mm stereo to two RCA jacks to plug in my X-Fi to my receiver? Again, I only say this because I can't think of anything other than those 3 analog outputs on my card that will let the card do all the work and take advantage of all the features.

2) You said the receiver handles the cutoff... but wouldn't the cutoff be handled by whatever is doing the decoding and line separation, in this case my X-Fi sound card? (Either way, the LFE port is sending a sub only out right? So you're saying just crank the freq. cutoff on the new sub amp because one way or the other, the signal getting there is only for the sub?) Maybe the difference here is that the way you have your setup with SPDIF output from your soundcard, you're still letting your receiver do all the work? Do you know if I'm feeding the signal into my receiver using the multi-channel RCA input (assuming the multi-channel RCA input is the way to go), would my receiver handle the sub cutoff as well or would my soundcard have done everything pre-output and the receiver is basically just "passing" the info through?

3) When you finished your setup, did you notice any difference in the quality of your speakers from when you were using them as they were before? Did they sound better/worse?

[nightcabbage]

Oh and another thing: I noticed the range of that BASH amp is 50 to 150 Hz, while the range of the ProMedia Ultra system is 25Hz-20kHz. So doesn't that mean I'll be missing that extra low 25Hz after I install that BASH plate amp?

[nashbridges]

Hey nightcabbage,

I'll have to check tonight to answer some of your questions. My receiver doesn't have RCA inputs for surround, so I probably can't answer all those.

As to the overall sound quality - I have noticed that because of how the receiver decodes sound the center channel sounds "weak" while I'm watching TV. I've played with the levels quite a bit, but I may have to shell out for something more substantial to handle that center channel.

To answer one question from your other thread, yes, I'm pretty sure you lose the 25Hz low end. I'm not an audiophile so I can't tell the difference, but you might be able to.

I'll test out my Xfi card tonight and let you know how the SPDIF output is handled. You may be right on the money that it just hands off all the channels and let's the receiver deal with it.

[nightcabbage]

Well I tested my theory and hooked up my computer to a different home theater system (Klipsch Quintet III satellites and a Klipsch Synergy 12 Sub, Yamaha HTR-5960 receiver). I used 3 cords that went from mini-stereo jacks on my X-Fi card and split off to two RCA males, so I was able to plug in to the receiver's multi-channel ins. Once you set the receiver to multi-channel input, I can attest to the fact that it is basically just passing the signal through and does no crossover in the receiver itself. Why? Because I was getting no sub output until I enabled bass redirection (with its own crossover frequency adjustment) in the X-Fi control panel. So basically the X-Fi handles all the decoding and crossover rather than the receiver, which I think is great! I want the CMSS-3D stereo to 5.1 upmixing, the X-Fi crystalizer, and my 3D game audio. So that answers some of my questions above, and I'll definitely be hooking it up to a new receiver in this way rather than optical since my X-Fi can do more than any receiver could. It is a bummer your receiver doesn't have the multi-channel RCA inputs, because that might help your center channel issue as well. (Well, maybe not if the problem is related to your TV and not your PC soundcard. Can't you just adjust dB output for individual channels on your receiver? Just thinking outloud.)

I'd still be interested in hearing about the results of your own X-Fi SPDIF output tests though.

This thread topic has changed a bit as my understanding has greatly increased over the past couple of days... however, maybe you could check out another thread I made: http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/131806.aspx

LOL. Sorry for all the questions... you're a helpful guy! [H]

Oh, and one more thing... the 50Hz is the lowest the CROSSOVER can do on that BASH amp, not the lowest it puts out. There's a filter that will drop off at around 17Hz - 18Hz on that BASH amp. So no, we're not going to lose the extra 25Hz that our dual 8" Ultra sub can do. Woohoo! (Though I'm now wondering if that BASH amp will be sending too low of a frequency to the sub drivers... I don't want to damage them! Meh, maybe 8Hz lower isn't that big of a deal?)

[nashbridges]

I'm back, and I did some testing:

1) I see here it looks like you have connected your computer to the amp
with optical. I've read that the SPDIF output port on X-Fi's (and all
creative cards) just send the signal out without any processing.

Your mileage may vary, but here's my setup on the PC end:

• Dell Studio XPS 16 laptop
• Creative XFi USB (Model SB1090) with the three analog out and SPDIF out - using SPDIF out 12' optical cable to the receiver
• Windows 7 Ultimate
• Playback Device set to SDIF out, XFI surround 5.1 Device

There is definitely some processing done by the XFi before the signal is handed off to the receiver via SPDIF, but I'll be honest it's an absolute pain to figure out what is doing what (receiver vs. XFi). Under the advanced settings for playback options, I had a tab for "Soundblaster" and then a button for "Settings". Clicking on Settings took me to a Creative control panel. To test, I fired up iTunes and started clicking on effects. Results:

• Enabling EAX effects on music makes the whole room sound like it's on reverb. I don't like it, but it's definitely being provided by the card. Changing modes and the amount of the effect produce extremely noticeable changes in sound.
• Enabling CMSS-3D doesn't seem to do as much. This is probably because the Sony receiver is actually handling the upsample from stereo to surround. iTunes only provides a stereo signal.
• There is no bass management tab if you are using the SPDIF settings. I mean, it just isn't there in the windows style control panel, although it is there in the Creative Console Launcher. As far as I can tell, changing the settings for crossover frequency doesn't change anything as far as sound is concerned, nor does changing any of the other settings. I'm assuming that they are there for the three outputs you are using for surround, but not optical.
• The Creative equalizer seems to work pretty well, but I'm pretty sure it is working "in addition to" the levels I set on the receiver.
• X-Fi Crystalizer, like the other effects, works.

So that's my testing with iTunes so far. I'm certain that you were mostly correct: the signal is handed off without any processing except for some Creative effects, which do respond to control on the computer alarmingly well. I should also note that if the Sony receiver was set to auto-detect the input signal, I could not, for the life of me, trick it into thinking the SPDIF input was 5.1 using iTunes as the sound provider. I could not get 5.1 output without having the receiver do the work.

My apologies for not having more answers off the bat, but my original goal when I got the speakers working again was to have a decent system for the TV and the computer in my office. The TV/xBox portion is relatively easy compared to the PC audio. I'm also completely new to all of this - this is the first time I've tried to shoehorn a new amp into an existing speaker system and make it all work with a PC/TV/xBox and an arguably cheap, limited receiver. That it's working at all is almost a miracle by my standards.

Next up for testing: I am going to try a few games, but to answer your questions I'm going to have to find one that I know uses EAX. Obviously, DVDs sound good on the system, and I know I've played quite a few games with surround working, but I'll try to be more specific.

If you have any games in particular or any tests you'd like me to run, please feel free to post them here so other people can see the results. I follow instructions pretty well []

[nashbridges]

Hey Nightcabbage, me again. Not sure if you're still around, but I went ahead a bought a desktop so I thought maybe you'd like to know some new things:

1) the USB creative card on my laptop would not do Dolby Live enconding, so if a game didn't offer it I couldn't get surround sound.

2) My new setup with that amp and speakers has a Creative Fatal1ty professional sound card, and it does DDL encoding, so it upsamples even stereo signals to pipe it out through all of the speakers.

3) Games with EAX or traditional 5.1 analog surround sound are now piped properly to each speaker via the DDL or DTS encoding done by the sound card.

I am happy to report that a year later, the speakers are still working wonderfully with the cheap Sony amp/receiver and the BASH subwoofer amp. I don't plan on ever replacing these as long as they keep working. The only weak part in the 5.1 ultras was the amp, and I've figured out a way to replace that. Good times all around.

Hope you are doing well!

[nightcabbage]

Hello again!

Interesting that the Fatal1ty card re-encodes analog surround into a digital codec like DDL or DTS so your receiver can re-decode! LOL. (It is similar to what my Blu-Ray player does... re-encodes all tracks into DTS for my optical out so I still get menu sounds.) I don't think my original X-Fi does that. A really useful feature to be able to run just the one digital SPDIF rather than all those splitters. I still run it through those into my receiver's multi-channel inputs though since there's no real issue with it... so basically my Yamaha A/V Receiver is just an amp :-)

The only thing that has changed is I actually don't use my Ultra 5.1 system anymore! I ended up getting the new RF-II Reference for my home theater, and so my Quintet IIIs and a Sub-10 went to my computer... and the Ultra's with the BASH amp were left over! My friend is going to be buying my Ultra 5.1 system as they are still working great, and I owe that to you for filling me in with your methods.

A shame that the Ultra line ended up being a blight on Klipsch's record with the amp issues, but it wasn't enough to counter-act my love for the quality of the speakers... as my buying habits will attest to! I only wish they would have done something to show appreciation to those loyal customers that were burned by that in the first place. Oh well, in the end I'm listening to crystal clear sound either way. I hope others will find this thread and it helps them out. I've had fun along the way and learned a lot.