Sub power ratings

[cakid]

A little while back I bought a RSW-12 with the expectation that it had twice the watts as the RSW-10. I was disappointed when I received the sub and found that it only had a 6 amp. fuse. The RSW-10 has a 5 amp. fuse. Looking at the fuse was the only way for me to try to determine the "real" watts as there is no reference to it in any of the specs. A 6 amp. fuse at 120 Volts means the fuse will blow if the sub uses more than 720 watts total power consumption. How can that be if the sub is rated at "1000 watts continuous"? This has bothered me ever since I bought the sub so I thought I would try to find out if anyone else was discouraged with the ambiguous power ratings. I like to get what I'm paying for and watts do make a BIG difference.

[TheEAR]

Power ratings and fuses

Ok first the RSW10 is rated at 500W RMS and 1000W PEAK

1KW peak means the amp can deliver this power for a very short time,its for short bursts.The capacitors give the amp its reserve when needed.

Most of the time the RSW10 amp delivers under 200W even on peaks.Unless driven hard to high levels.SO the fuse is right for this amp,and remember the BASH amps transform almost all the amps at the input into output,the loss is very minimal.Compare this to class A amps and you'll see.

Carver subs are also like this,the Sunfire Mark II and Sig. are "2700W" the amp can deliver this much for a very short time(provided the current is plenty).Even Bob Carver says his subs deliver 270W on most peaks!Does this make his subs weak?No in fact the Sunfire Signature is more powerful then the Velodyne HGS12 and SPL1200 in output.Watts dont make a sub,its how the wattage is transformed into air movement.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[cakid]

I do understand about today's "current" style amps. This does not mean the laws of physics are changed and that a "current" style amp is rated differently in regard to how many watts are burned at the speaker. I expected to see a power rating (with a reference) such as 200 watts RMS continuous at 4 Ohms. But listing it as 1000 watts continuous with no reference really means nothing. As an electronic technician, I could go on and on disproving the 1000-watt continuous rating.

As far as Klipch products - I have several sets of speakers including several subs. I like the products. The new sub design is superior compared to the old. I just wish the power rating had a reference. The older subs had a true power rating. I would have to say the new ones are rated to deceive the buyer.

[TheEAR]

Well in this case only an Acoustic Watt counts.

Even the Velodyne HGS18 with a 1250W true RMS digital amp driving a massive 18" woofer means little,sure it can give a healthy 119dB at 30Hz in a small room when corner loaded.The Sunfire SIg. will blast 115dB when corner loaded in my small HT room(30Hz also).Who cares about amp wattage if the sub cant surpass 110dB at 30Hz?

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[boa12]

ears, this guy found 123db at 31.5hz on hgs-18.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_4/velodyne-hgs-18-subwoofer.html

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My Home Systems Page

[TheEAR]

Boa,

Good for them,well its what you get in your HT room that counts Boa.I got 119dB at 30Hz and it all that matter to me,its plenty of kick you know.

Remember I got this output when measured where I sit,not SPL meter stuck on the cone. LOL

Some will get less,this all depends on the room and how far from the sub the measuring mic is.Placement is critocal too.

With two SVS Ultras I went over the 126dB level in my smallish room,I was to damn lazy to find space in the larger room and move things around.Anyway anything over 110dB is loud and not good for your ears.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[boa12]

ears, i know yea i'd be lucky to get the 119db w/ my room & space restraints. just wanted to make sure you had that review hgsoul brother.

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My Home Systems Page

[TheEAR]

"hgsoul brother" LOL

Velodyne HGS are really clean sounding subs,I like this aspect.It was the main reason of the purchase.And the output is good too.

In my larger room where the HGS sits I may get 112-114 with luck.My small room is almost car like in its bass boost.Even a tiny Sunfire Junior could fool many into thinking all subs are going full tilt!

I dont push my subs past 1/3 of the max power output,only a few times did I turn the knobs to the mat.

I wish Velodyne would have a real wood finish like Revel as an option.The gloss finish is my only rant about the Velo.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[boa12]

ears, the hgs has something else i really like - remote control. yea i set it's output about 3.5 & that's still about 5db more that it should be around 30hz (as far as true balance w/ the other speaks).

but for the HT lfe i'll still click it up 3-5 times w/ the universal remote. wonder how much each click on the remote corresponds to the dial. .5 notch on the dial maybe? anyway that don't hurt none.

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My Home Systems Page

[cakid]

Mr. Ear - With all due respect, there is no such thing as acoustic watts. Watts are a measure of power. It is a measure of heat. One watt of power equals the work done in one second by one volt of potential difference in moving one coulomb of charge. The original point of my topic was obviously missed. You mentioned the RSW-10 was 500 watts RMS. I am thinking you assumed the "RMS" portion of the rating, which cannot be assumed. The only specification I saw was 500 watts continuous, which means nothing without a reference. I understand that you recognize the efficiency of subs in regard to the level of decibels at certain frequencies. I have no qualms with the efficiency of Klipch products. They are some of the most efficient I have seen. I care a great deal about sub design AND sub power. BOTH are needed for a sub to perform.

The sub I bought was rated at 1000 watts continuous. If the power rating was in RMS, this sub could potentially break windows if played in a small house(if the architecture of the sub could handle the power).

I probably made a mistake posting this "beef" on this forum instead of taking it up with Klipch. I emailed Klipch yesterday asking them to give me the RMS power rating of the RSW-12. I'll post their response when I get an answer.

Who cares about watts? I think most people do. The higher the watts (with a low distortion amp and proper sub architecture) the more accurately sounds will be reproduced and the louder the sub can be played before the clipping level.

[TheEAR]

With all due respect CaKid

"The definition of dB SPL is the 20 log ... square meter,

the threshold of hearing. One acoustic watt is equivalent to 107.5 dBSPL"

So... One acoustic watt is equivalent to 107.5 dBSPL

before your RSW12 pouts out just one acoustic watt at 25Hz it will start to spit its parts. LOL

With all due respect you should do a search before starting an argument.Sir

And this is a good one...

"The sub I bought was rated at 1000 watts continuous. If the power rating was in RMS, this sub could potentially break windows if played in a small house(if the architecture of the sub could handle the power)."

1000W even true RMS and Krell RMS dont guarantee you of extreme SPL.The most important is how the driver uses one watt and transforms into air movement.Say with one watt your RSW12 would put out 82-84dB,even with 1000W RMS the sub would not break walls.Take for example a Cerwin Vega horn loaded bass bin with twin 18" woofers,with only one watt it can belt over 103dB with ONE WATT.SO wattage is one part of the math.And in any case the RSW subs are not too linear and tend to dive when freq. goes down.

You want BIG SPL at home take a look at SVS,their subs use each watt very well.And with a 350W RMS power amp(even a inexpensive Samson)you will get wall shaking/ear tearing output.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[cakid]

TheEar,

Yes, you are right about the existence of "acoustic watt" ratings. I was hasty in saying there was no such thing. I was too focused on the point I was trying to make about the RMS power rating, which was the point I have been trying to make all along.

I don't see this picking an argument, but having a discussion.

The whole point of my original post was disputing the 1000 watt power rating of the sub I bought. And if Klipch gives me an honest response, I'll prove that the rating is no where near 1000 watts RMS. I told them I wanted the rating in the following format: (XXX Watts RMS continuous into X Ohms) Hopefully I'll get a reply from them on Monday. I'll be sure to share.

Have a great day!

[TheEAR]

CaKid,

Yep I agree with you on the Klipsch "1000W" rating for the RSW12 and 15.I have the RSW10 and I dont think the amp can deliver 500W sustained,peaks of(or near)1000W are realistic.

And even Velodyne with their 1250W rating for the HGS series looks to be optimistic too.Maybe its because of too much limiter control.

I would like to see some measured specs on the subwoofer amps just for fun.

TheEAR(s) Now theears