maxg Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Over the weekend I was at a friend's house playing with his system. He has exactly the same TT as I do (the Pro-ject 4 TT with the Pro-ject 9 arm and Pro-ject K4 head) mated to the same Pro-ject phono stage. As opposed to my tubes/Klipsch setup his is mated to an Accuphase E407 integrated amplifier and Quad 989 speakers. The first couple of hours were spent setting up his system a little better (switching cables, re-aligning and re-positioning the speakers, adjusting the balance of the player etc. - all to the good of the sound.) Once we had completed this task we sat down to listen to the system. His record collection is almost entirely made up of audiophile recordings and it sounded really good, maybe a bit harsh, but really good. One huge surprise was in the playing of one of his non-audiophile recordings - a standard US copy of "the Wall". Whilst he was gushing on about how inferior this sound was to the audiophile disks I was struck by the sheer musicality of the sound. All of the harshness was gone. This was almost a tube sound and whilst I could appreciate the lack of detail in comparison to some of his other disks it was a far more pleasant listening experience to my ears. During the course of playing 2 other issues arose which struck me as interesting: 1. All of his records played with accompanying hiss. Even where he has the same disk as I do (for example a direct to disk version of Wild Child Butler) there were levels of hiss I do not get in my listening (I get no hiss whatsoever on the above album). 2. When the motor of the TT is turned on and the needle swept towards the centre (even in the raised position) the needle picks up hum. This never happens on my system even when volume level is set to maximum on the pre-amp. 3. At one point we switched from the TT to a CD player (top end Pioneer player with a very thick CD tray in which the CD is inserted upsidedown), To my amazement this did not sound harsh, digital and compressed as I normally associate with CD (in relation to the vinyl). Maybe it did not sound as good ultimately but it was a lot closer than I was expecting. The above has led me to some totally unsubstantiated conclusions as follows: 1. Matching of TT to tubes serves to mask the hiss of vinyl to the point that you can claim "zero hiss" on even moderate vinyl (i.e. non audiophile titles). 2. Very revealing systems (the Quads and Accuphase are Known to be brutal in this respect) show less benefit from vinyl over CD and other digital formats. In many ways this finally explained to me how it is that some people still claim to prefer the sound of CD over vinyl. It seems that on some systems the benefits of vinyl simply do not come through properly and their acompanying drawbacks are highlighted to the point that one could genuinely get better sound from CD. I am now beginning to question the entire basis of choosing and assembling a system. To date I was firmly in the camp that said "choose your speakers first" and then assemble the rest of the equipment aound it. Now I am reversing that position and saying choose your source first and work outwards. I joked with the owner that, were this my system, I would only listen to relly cheap vinyl on it. He laughed, but I was not totally kidding. ------------------ My System: http://aca.gr/pop_maxg.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaloumbakas Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Max, I will try to comment on your findings if you allow me: _____________________________________ quote: 1. All of his records played with accompanying hiss. Even where he has the same disk as I do (for example a direct to disk version of Wild Child Butler) there were levels of hiss I do not get in my listening (I get no hiss whatsoever on the above album). Comment: This is because your friend's system is more revealing. _____________________________________ quote: 2. When the motor of the TT is turned on and the needle swept towards the center (even in the raised position) the needle picks up hum. This never happens on my system even when volume level is set to maximum on the pre-amp. Comment: Probably due to some electrical (transformer nearby ?? or...) interference - your friend should find a way to get rid of it!!! _____________________________________ quote: 3. At one point we switched from the TT to a CD player (top end Pioneer player with a very thick CD tray in which the CD is inserted upside-down), To my amazement this did not sound harsh, digital and compressed as I normally associate with CD (in relation to the vinyl). Maybe it did not sound as good ultimately but it was a lot closer than I was expecting. Comment: You compared a top digital with a (well calibrated??) not so expensive analogue. _____________________________________ quote: 1. Matching of TT to tubes serves to mask the hiss of vinyl to the point that you can claim "zero hiss" on even moderate vinyl (i.e. non-audiophile titles). Comment: Never choose equipment to mask things but to reveal things. To be honest, I love when I listen to hiss, hiss is inherent in the master tape and if you get that, you get musical information as well... On the other hand you are right, tubes mask some harshness but that is inherent to digital, not to a well-set analogue source. _____________________________________ quote: 2. Very revealing systems (the Quads and Accuphase are Known to be brutal in this respect) show less benefit from vinyl over CD and other digital formats. Comment: Strongly opposed to that!!! I always say that a good analogue set-up should be accompanied by a good transistor type amplification because it is more accurate to reproduce the 'analogueness' of the sound. This may come to a surprise to many, but more and more people discover the truth of this statement, comparing analogue to digital (my system for example is transistor based. What have you thought about vinyl vs. CD reproduction). Differences are getting bigger in favor to vinyl, having good transistor than having good valve amplification. Valves mask the harshness of the digital, this is why they got popular again in these digital times, simply because they sound sweeter with the digital. But analogue DOES NOT NEED THAT... _____________________________________ quote: "...Now I am reversing that position and saying choose your source first and work outwards..." Comment: No Max, first priority of a sound reproduction chain is and always be: a. Speakers and room or Room and speakers rather. b. Source. c. Amplification (more related to speakers than to the source). d. Cables and the rest... _____________________________________ Max, It seems to me, this was not a strange weekend of findings but a weekend of strange findings... Christos Skaloumbakas _____________________________________ My System: http://aca.gr/pop_skal.htm This message has been edited by skaloumbakas on 06-03-2002 at 06:22 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted June 3, 2002 Author Share Posted June 3, 2002 Christos, You know whose system I am discussing here - I will bwe interested in your feedback once you get the opportunity to hear it. As for our interpretations of what works well with vinyl and what doesnt I think that this relfects our different start points. Remember I am a child of the digital age. I have come from digital to analogue. I am extremely sensitive to the hiss, crackle and pops of analogue and therefore things that reduce it win favour with me, even at the expense of some of the detail in the music. For me it is the musicality of vinyl, not the detail that appeals. I know many others that cite the accuracy and detail of digital over analogue as a major driving force for their listening choice. I now understand where they are coming from - even if I choose to follow another path. BTW - I am now over 300 records and still climbing!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaloumbakas Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Max, I think we are planning a double Club meeting to you and your friend's house soon, if this is the one we are talking about. quote: I know many others that cite the accuracy and detail of digital over analogue as a major driving force for their listening choice When you try to fit a stepped-up curve to an analogue curve, you will never exceed the accuracy of the original ... Aim for the accuracy not the musicality (what does this mean?). Musical instruments can be musical, not machines. Cheers Christos Skaloumbakas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Hi Max! One thing I've learned is that there's no such thing a two systems that are exactly the same. Even if your friend had the same tube setup and Klipsch speakers that you have, you'd find the two systems sounded different. Some (most?) of the differences would be due to the manner in which the room and the speakers interact, but even allowing for that, I've found that the interactions between source components, amp and/or preamp, speakers and cables is a very complex, and seemingly chaotic, function. I've never heard any two systems sound exactly the same. Having said all that, there is one SIGNIFICANT source of potential differences between these two systems, aside from the obvious tube / sand and horn / electrostatic issues. That is the cartridge mounting. Minor difference in VTA, Azimuth alingment, overhang, stylus rake angle, yada yada yada can significantly alter the frequency response of the cartridge, as can the way the phono preamp loads down the cartridge. Also, note that when you find that system B makes something like tape hiss more pronounced that system A, one reason might be that system B is more open, or more revealing, or more extended, or whatever you want to call it in the high frequencies. HOWEVER, it is ALSO possible the system B simply has a LESS pronounced midbass, or that the low frequencies overall are shelved down a bit compared to system A. Reducing one part of the frequency response is often perceived incorrectly as a BOOST of some other part of the spectrum. Just some food for thought... ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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