Timbre matching significance witnessed!

[popbumper]

All:

Being that I am putting my system together "piece by piece", up until yesterday I had only the front R&L speakers (Klipsch Forte), and two rear R&L speakers (Klipsch KG2), sans a center or sub.

A local friend who is a rep for commercial audio equipment (EV and others) happened to have a Triad center speaker he was not using, and offered it up to me for a trade of some work in another hobby! While I was acutely aware of the number of messages I had read regarding the importance of timbre matching, I nonetheless went home last night - at midnight - and hooked it up, using both Lord of the rings and The Matrix as "test" discs.

First impression was the absolute CHANGE in the system for balance. To begin, this is a very inefficient speaker, and needed to be "bumped up" quite a bit. Second, the surrounds were WAY too hot, so I had to take them down. After balancing everything (and also adjusting delay parameters), my conclusions were this:

1) When all the dialogue goes to the center channel, the "quality" of any given speaker becomes SO obvious, you can't hide it.

2) The center channel sound, while blended "more or less", was a bit more "canned" than I would have liked, as compared to the Klipsch.

3) I did witness some minor "seam transition" error, where sound went from the left to center channel (the phone ringing in "The Matrix"); the sound DID change. This effect was nearly eliminated when I switched modes from Dolby PLII to 5.1.

This was a very interesting exercise for me, and while I am a newbie at this, and a scientist (engineer) by trade, I always like to "do what is NOT recommended" to prove a point. While I will use the speaker until I have a better one, I can definitely concur that the validity of "timbre matching" is alive and well.

Popbumper

[avman]

that is why i am happy to say that i will be getting a KLF-30 next month to turn into a center channel!

the C-7 center is very nice,and has served me well, but w/KLF-30 mains,a KLF-30 center is THE TRUE match!

thanks,HornEd,for the inspiration.

avman.

[BBB]

I agree entirely with anyone who makes an extra effort in trying to get all their speakers timbre matched. It can make a definite difference . To what degree depends on everyones individual set up. With that said, and trying to put it in a positive constructive point of view, I wouldnt recommend ANY of the Matrix series of movies to monitor how well your center speaker is matching up. Especially when you are bopping back and forth between Pro Logic II and DD 5.1.

On those Dolby sound tracks it is going to sound vastly different because of the way they were mixed. My speakers are timbre matched Ref 7s and RC7 and I find the center channel on all the Matrix films is lacking punch. In fact the entire sound track needs to be turned up quite a bit while in 5.1 to come anywhere near the sound of the Lord of the Rings center channel. Even with that said LOTR doesnt have the greatest center sound Ive ever heard but enough to tell the difference in the mixes between the two films. Of course all this will be different in Pro logic II.

I think the best way to get the job done, that is if you have not already done so, is to find a good audio test disc and set everything up with a SPL meter in 5.1 and then pop in your favorite DVD and adjust from there. I may be wrong.. but I may be right.

[avman]

now that you mention it,BBB,i have found some dvd concerts are weak on the center level,but i think that is on purpose,and they allow the L,R front to make a'phantom' center...

one of the main reasons for my upgrade to a klf-30 center is for dvd concerts(that HAVE a good center ch. volume level)so they sound better.

when i tried HornEd's suggestion of a 'phantom' center,what i LIKED about that was an overall good sound across the front.what made me want a klf-30 MATCHING center was the lack of 'solidity' to that phantom center,although on 2-ch.material i have a very solid center soundstage presence.

anyway,after i get the klf-30 center squared away,i will follow-up w/a report.

avman.

[HornEd]

Popbumper... it's great to have another Forum Member probing the frontiers of ear candy. Avaman & BBB always have a good word to say and lend a hand to thorny problems.

Avman... I can't believe you are going to get a proper KLF-30 in the center of your Belo action. There's something about a three KLF-30 front array for Home Theater that makes movies come alive!

Nothing makes movies better than six identical monopoles with a Klipsch label on them! -HornEd

[popbumper]

BBB:

You brought up SUCH a good point in your comment about the Matrix and LOTR center channel information as being somewhat dubious to use as reference; it was something I had forgotten to mention. I really struggled with both of these discs, it seemed like the Matrix center was inadequate, and then suddenly the LOTR center was overpowering. This indeed WAS the case, and I heard it firsthand. My adjustments seemed to satisfy neither source, and I found myself wondering IF I really wanted a dedicated center - the phantom center REALLY sounded good from the Forte's. I did go carefully through the test tone and "earmatched" all the speakers, but I really need to do it "right".

I am glad to know this forum exists, and that good information can be shared. Again, being a newbie I have much to learn, but I can can also see that this whole "hobby" is a study in "sound evolution". One man's poison may be another man's pleasure, but you often have to find that out for yourself. Sometimes it is fun being the "new guy", there is so much exciting that awaits. HornEd, I hope I can discover and share even more as I trek this slippery, but VERY enjoyable path. If I ever get to ramblin' too much, just let me know.

My reaction to a first sub will be coming soon. Personally, I can't wait....

Popbumper

[Guest Anonymous]

Ed what do you use the 6th speaker for, I have 5 corns hooked up for a 5.1 with the B4-plus/crown k2, but I have an extra corn doing no work. What should I do?

[Cleve]

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On 4/14/2004 2:35:13 PM avman wrote:

that is why i am happy to say that i will be getting a KLF-30 next month to turn into a center channel!

the C-7 center is very nice,and has served me well, but w/KLF-30 mains,a KLF-30 center is THE TRUE match!

thanks,HornEd,for the inspiration.

avman.

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AvMan, you lucky dog, where'd you scrounge up one single solitary KLF-30? hehe! I'd take one of those, in lieu of a solo CF-4!!! The KLF-30 has gotta be a lot closer timbre match than what I have now for center! My RC-25 looks sadly inadequate next to my hulking CF-4's!

Anyways, wouldn't the ULTIMATE center be an Avant-Garde Trio? The KLF-30's a good value for the money, though! j/k!

[Q-Man]

Smilin,

Rear center. Did I say REAR CENTER channel speaker?

I'm still waiting for you to talk about your B-4.

[Q-Man]

We need to get those Two Channel guys to listen to a timbre matched home theater speaker system. Did you read the topic about dumping home theater?

[avman]

it's true!! it's true!!

i am splitting a pair of black KLF-30's w/another bb member,and we are getting them from yet another bb member he is going to deliver them to us IN PERSON!

part of the negotiations was that i get him a muffaletta,and with such effort being taken on his part to assure safe arrival of the '30's, nothing but a Central Grocery muffaletta on Decatur St.will do. they are THE BEST!

hopefully his and my schedule will allow for him to experience my ht room.

i am moving the Bello' tv rack out of the ht room as i haven't watched my sony 36xbr in over a year with the arrival of my sony hs-10 pj(which replaced the sharp).so it's the living room for the xbr,but i am keeping the Bello' racks in the ht room, and i have just the right space to lay the KLF-30 down in between.

HornEd-count on some ?'s as that time approaches,and thanks again.

avman.

[BBB]

AV! :You are doing the right thing, you lucky dog,you. Ed is a good guide. Let him take the chances first. Just kidding Ed.

Popbumper: stick around .We try to squeeze a little fun in between the facts here..... sometimes

Q-man: Now who's talking about dumping what and when? Wait! Are those war drums I hear in the distance? I might have to break out the stainless steel drum sticks and give a "Wipeout" demonstration on the old skins. he he he he he

[HornEd]

Granted that 5.1 is the current DVD "standard"... but there are a few 6.1 DVD's since the first "Gladiator" hit the home screen. Lacking a sixth channel on a DVD doesn't phase many upscale receivers... they make a sixth channel by sampling the content of the side/surround channels. For those who prefer ambience with "monopole honesty" rather than "dipole deception"... adding a sixth discrete channel provides a decided boost in ambience with enhanced directionality. And, of course, six timbre-matched mains make the same sound sound the same no matter which speaker it comes from.

The reason that I modify floor standing speakers to become horizontal rear array speakers is that spreading the woofers to the extreme ends of the cabinet allows a greater angle of coverage... which translates to being more people fit in the sweet spot. Obviously, the Cornwall doesn't qualify on that score because it has a single woofer... ah, but what a woofer. I actually bought a pair of Cornwalls to build a 6.1 All Corn Theater... when a sudden fluke brought me access to six KLF-30's, three KLF-10's and a pair of KLF-C7's.

I have been using the KLF-C7's as Front Effects speakers... a task for which they are far better suited than as centers for the KLF-30's! The three KLF-10's languish in storage with four or five Klipsch subwoofers, the surplus oak corns and an Academy. The Heritage Home Theater is going together with six Khorns and four Belles.

So, find another corn and stick it on your back wall and feed it with a synthesized sixth channel... and be ready to be amazed at the ambience in your All Corn Theater Extravaganza! -HornEd

PS: I must have been fiddling with this reply when BBB shot his latest arrow in the direction of my BVD's... now that really marks me as a true pioneer... Actually, BBB, I keep getting questions for which the experts have answers that aren't always as plausible to me as it was to them. So, as long as I have the time and resources... I'll continue to send up smoke signals... at least when my efforts crash and burn! Your humor has never offended me, BBB, so have at it my friend! -H.E.

[Guest Anonymous]

HornEd

Ihave 6 corns, I just do not follow where and how to hook up the 6th, please help.

Smilin for heritage

[HornEd]

Smilin... it's time to hook 'em horns! (As they used to say at the University of Texas)

Most upscale receivers will provide you with a unique sixth channel... failing that, look up on the Klipsch Archives the connector that Paul W. Klipsch used to power his center channel on the Bell Labs three-channel stereo approach. I'm stuck for time now and have to run... but setting up a sixth channel in the rear array by hooking the leads up to the side/surround channels should increase your ambience to a "Corndelicious" degree. -HornEd

[Guest Anonymous]

HornEd

Thanks, I have the B&K 507 AVR, I will read the manual this weekend and check it out....You are DA HORNMAN

[avman]

i am not sure what i am going to do-other than experiment-as far as a center rear goes in my ht room...i always thought,and have planned,to use my C-7 as a center rear when that glorious day arrives finding a 'HornEd-zontalised' KLF-30 laying between my L,R fronts.

in anticipation of that day,i purchased(for $75 ) an old Sony ES pro-logic receiver so i can take the line-level L,R surround outputs of my STRDA777ES ht receiver into the pro-logic receiver-allowing the pro-logic circuitry to derive and power my center rear.

the only thing is-i have heard 'Gladiator'-which should be a shining example of what that center rear CAN do,on a 6.1 receiver,and i was unimpressed w/the amount of sounds that actually come out of the center rear.that,and the facts that my room is only 12 ft. wide,and my STRDA777ES has 'virtual matrix 6.1'which-so far-has done a CONVINCING job of simulating a center rear(using my KSP-S6 'sound sprayers')

so i will try a center rear as described,but may wind up selling my C-7 if it does not really make a significant difference in MY ht room.

avman.

[glr]

When using a KLF-30 for a center channel, how do you have it set up vertical or horizonal? I can't imagine laying a 30 on it's side as a center channel.

[Q-Man]

On it's side, with a new baffle so the woofers can be mounted at each end with the tweeter and mid. horn in the center. It's a piece of cake. Twist Horn Eds arm a little and maybe he will post a picture of his for you. You can do this with any floor standing speaker that has two woofers.

[Cleve]

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On 4/15/2004 2:37:03 PM Q-Man wrote:

On it's side, with a new baffle so the woofers can be mounted at each end with the tweeter and mid. horn in the center. It's a piece of cake. Twist Horn Eds arm a little and maybe he will post a picture of his for you. You can do this with any floor standing speaker that has two woofers.

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Ahhhh, that's what the mod is - relocating the horn and tweeter so they're in a "D'Appolito" arrangement with the twin 12" woofers.

Do you think a CF-4 (or any of the Epics) for that matter would be good, 'as is' for Center Channel Duty? They're only slightly asymetric, - 9 1/2" from the bottom of the cabinet to the edge of the lower woofer, versus 2" from the top of the cabinet to the edge of the upper woofer. This assymetry resultsfrom the twin ports at the bottom. Would it be worth the time to create a new front piece and remount woofers, horn, and ports totally symmetrically?

Another question - Somebody's got a pair of CF-2's for sale on Audiogon - Would those match the 'timbre' of my CF-4's fairly closely? Would one of these make a great center channel for my system?