Noob, KP-301s, are these the pro version of Cornwalls?

[crexrun]

Hello Everyone, first post. I just picked up a set of KP-301s, from a shop here in rural South Dakota, does anyone know anything about them? I have been lurking here for a week now, and have found the specs from them, and know the driver numbers, but I am still unsure of a few things.

First, are these pro Cornwalls? I have seen that posted a few times, but have never gotten a good answer. I am using them for 2ch stereo, and also they will be used for the occasional movie, in 2ch also.

Second, what is the history of these models? I checked the serial number, the guy I called at Klipsch wasn't super helpful, but I have deduced that this pair -030294520- was made January 30th, 1992, #4520 but that may be wrong. They are in very nice shape, and are the black versions with handles and the corner guards.

I guess I am just wondering, even though they sound good to my ears, minus a little on the low end of the spectrum, are they really designed for this purpose, or are they designed to be fed a ton of power for PA use? They are very detailed on top, but sometimes I think the very low end of the midrange is lacking, it seems bass guitars and the like should have a little more fullness to them. The bass is very accurate, and the high end is wonderful, if not a little to bright for the low end.

I am running them with some vintage gear, The Technics Pro series rack mount equipment, from 77-79, I have a set from 1978 consisting of a SE-9060 amp, SU-9070 preamp, SL-1700 TT, and I am using a Philips DVP-642 dvd player, and I also have a JVC AX-Z911 Digital reference amp, circa 1988, with an optical in that I am not using, but is in the cabinet.

I absolutely love them for horns, guitars, female singers, etc., it all sounds just right, but there's something that seems to be missing down low, it's not just boom-boom bass, it's the way a bass guitar kind of flows out and fills the room that seems to be missing. I have no tone controls on the Technics gear, but when I ran them with the JVC, a TOTL amp that retailed for $1200 in 88, which has a bass control, they sound much better if I crank the bass way up. I am not trying to ruin my eardrums, I just want to even it out.

Movies sound excellent with them as well, but they don't dig as deep as I thought they would being this large, but that's the tradeoff for efficiency. It seems like either there is a small dip in the response, or the 15 is crossed over too low, or themid doesn't go low enough, but I find myself wanting an EQ to figure out what the deal it. I am planning on getting a powered sub to go along with these, I am not expecting them to rumble the floorboards, I just want them to sound a little warmer. Any comments or thoughts are appreciated.

One more thing, why 2 sets of binding posts if they are connected internally? There is a low and high freq. fuse, 2 1/4" inputs, and the four binding posts. You could bi-amp them, but you would have to cut the internal wires connecting the posts, correct? I'll post a couple pics, maybe I can get a little feedback on them. PS, in the pics, the speakers were on the floor, now they are about 14" up. They are in a bassment, all concrete, but quite a bit of furniture and carpet, however the rest is open. They may sound a lot warmer in a furnished living room. Thanks in advance, Justin Tollefson

[crexrun]

Here is all the info I have,

KP-301, serial 030294520, 1

Inepected by Jerry White, Tested by Vanessa Herter?

The tweeter is a k79,

the mid is a k57,

the woofer is a k48 I beleive.

The crossover, Klipsch Balanced Network, Type KP-3.0B

Thanks for looking, Crexrun

[crexrun]

double post.

[crexrun]

Nobody has any comments or info for me on these? I'd sure appreciate anything, I haven't been able to find much on these. Anybody have them, love them, hate them? Thanks, Crexrun

[DrWho]

I'm pretty sure they are the industrial version of the cornwall

Raising the cabinets 14" off the floor puts the center of the woofer around 3 feet from the floor? and 5 feet from the cieling? This will result in boundary cancellation centered around 100Hz and 80Hz, which might be the warmness suck out that you're noticing. At the very least, changing the height of the woofer is going to shift these boundary problems around (sometimes for the better if you can get some of the boundary cancellation lined up with a room resonance).

I guess what I'm trying to get at is to mess around with speaker position some more to see if you can't find a balance that helps bring out the fullness you're looking for.

And just outta curiousity, what kind of powered sub are you looking to get?

[crexrun]

Thanks Doc, I appreciate it. I had them on the floor initially, they did seem to sound a touch warmer, but They seemed to present a lower soundstage to my ears, and angling the cabinets up did little to help. They did seem to be slightly higher when angled, but they seem to sound more lifelike when the midrange is at or very slightly about ear level. I am new to the horn type speaker, I know they present themselves differently than a conventional design.

I am certainly no expert when it comes to speaker placement, I am thankful for any info that is passed on to me, and from any source.

As far as subwoofers, I was big into the car audio scene until the last couple of years, and There are certain combinations of boxes and drivers that I like very much, and it seems that to equal the bass quality, and volume, you have to spend a large amount in a home subwoofer. I know they are designed for different purposes, but when I have played around in the past with a sealed, efficient car audio sub, I seemed to have good results, occasionally. I was planning on perhaps building a set of risers for the KP-301s, approximately 10-16" tall, and placing a quality car sub in each of those, the design would be decided on when I get closed to doing it, but I would then run the subs stereo, maybe using an NHT crossover in my Rack, or similar. Home subs, that I have listened to (rural SD) seem to be very taxed at the very low end of the spectrum, I have a certain song by Deana Carter, it has organ notes to around 22hz, and most home speakers, and subs, have a large degree of difficulty presenting this the way I would like. My car systems, on the other hand, while obviously not as true to life as a home setup, had little problems producing 20hz and under. I realize this is an effect of the car's much smaller cabin, and the wavelengths of lower frequencies, (which I dont' grasp 100%) but even out of the car, a lot of good car subs sound excellent, IMO.

Also, there is the cost factor, due to constantly changing colors/ designs/ models, car audio subs can often be had at low cost at the end of the model year, even the good ones. It is still up in the air for now, but I am looking at getting something going within the next month or so. Any thoughts you had would be great, thanks for reading, Crexrun

[DrWho]

As far as subs go...you really need to find the T/S parameters of the driver you're thinking of using and then modelling the response in a program like WinISD. The reason subs in a car have no problem doing 20Hz is due to the cabin gain (like you mentioned). Just to give you an idea, we're talking 12-20dB of boost from the cabin of the car @ 20Hz! You don't have this occuring in your home, which is why you feel like the typical home sub doesn't compare. But put your car sub into your living room and you'll find it a most displeasing experience.

But since you seem to enjoy the DIY approach, then allow me to suggest looking into some of the many DIY home subwoofer drivers out there. Give us a budget and design goals and the guys on the forum would be more than willing to help you out in finding the right driver (and the right enclosure to put them in). One of the popular inexpensive options out there is the Dayton Titanic 15" MKIII (available at partsexpress).

[crexrun]

Well, that's awfully nice of you to offer DrWho. well, for basics, I am looking to have a sub get as close to 20hz as possible, I know they will play down there, but I am looking for good response somewhere down to that reason. I watch movies on this setup on occasion, I also have a serperate HT, but I sometimes like the accuracy of my vintage gear. I would like the stereo subs, because I am not crazy about having a single sub for stereo music, it always seems to make itself known. As far as a budget is concerned, I would like to stay around maybe $300 for the subwoofers, and I am already working on the amp end of it, I believe I have a line on an matching Technics SE-9060, it is a stereo/mono amp, built in the later 70s, and off excellent quality, parts of their pro series rack mount components. I guess I can wait to get this all finalized too, there's not a tremendous hurry, but you know how audio goes!

If someone can recommend a driver that plays deep, but is somewhat musical, and say, $100ish, I would be interested. I would also need something as efficient as possible, due to the high eff. of these KP-301s. I am not looking for floor rattling bass in my daily music, but the ability to do that would be nice from time to time, I am just looking for an overall, quality sound. I will run the subs wherever needbe crossover wise to blend in smoothly with the 301s, but still be full and powerful when needbe. I'm guess I'm just saying I want a sub that will complete, and keep up with, the KP-301s.

If I went with a 15, I could easily make it a downfiring design, if you think I should lower the height of the 301s, but if you think I'd be ok with the current height, I could probably make them a front/rear firing design as well. I build very nice cabinets, I am a perfectionist when it comes to things like that, and the car stuff I've done is always very strong, and draws a lot of compliments. I better get back to work, thanks for the help, it's always nice to hear opinions! Thanks again, Justin

[DrWho]

Well you might look at getting the Dayton Titanic 15" MKIII for $175 each:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-420

And then mate it with this amplifier for $240:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-806

Then put each driver in a 6 cubic foot internal enclosure (after subtracting port and driver volume) tuned to 19Hz (two 4" ports with a 28" length). You will want to put the ports in the box at angles so that they can fit...or you might consider going with a rear ported option to minimize the audibility of the port noise (in which case you can go two rear firing 3" ports with a 16" length). Whatever you do, make sure internal port mouths are more than a diameter length from any boundary. And then with the amplifier I suggested, implement 6dB of boost at 20Hz with a Q of "1". (Though when I read the users manual it claims that a Q of .1 cue affects less frequencies than a Q of 1 - which is totally opposite of the typically accepted standard).

The end result is a max linear SPL of 114dB with an F3 of 20Hz. With two subwoofers you're looking at a max of 117dB with the same F3. And you will want to wire them in series so as to present an 8ohm nominal load to the amplifier.

Attached is a picture of the anechoic maxSPL - expect to seem some room gain (which will prob give you good response down to 18Hz).

Also, if you plan to go with a different amplifier then you will want to change the cabinet design around a bit - especially considering that this design I just whipped up is taking advantage of a a parametric EQ and the natural rolloff of the amplifier below 20Hz so as to fully control the woofer excursion.

[lshannon]

I have a set too. They are commercial Cornwalls. I also have two other set of cornwalls.
I use mine as rear side speakers in a HT set-up. They work real well.


http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=49387&forumID=69&catID=19&search=1&searchstring=&sessionID={3F000EB5-031A-4DC4-9CFA-CC7F2315C8A8}

Stephen Phillips

Administrator

Total Posts: 642
Last Post: 8/26/2005
Member Since: 11/28/1999

Hi Lee,
The KP-301 is basically a Pro Cornwall II in a bit smaller cabinet and ported differently.
The 301 uses the same K-79-K tweeter and K-57-K with a K-601 horn lens as the Cornwall II.
The woofer in the 301 is the Pro K-48-K.
The crossover network is different do to the cabinet size and the intended use of the KP-301.
As the speaker is for Pro use, it may not sound right at home so to speak. May sound much better on a stage or in a large area application.
But you could be the judge of that. I know of several customers using the Pro La Scala's at home and like them.
Basically the bass extension may not be as deep as you would expect, but in a large area or outside, they would perform much better.
I may suggest an EQ for a few setting changes and it should be fine for home use

---

Klipsch Home Audio Tech Support

KP-301.pdf

[Klipschguy]

Welcome to the forum Justin.

If you want a serious home audio sub in that basement that is relatively inexpensive and easy to build, try an infinite baffle sub that uses a Parts Express $128 plate amp and two Dayton IB 15" woofers ($96 at Parts Express) mounted in an infinite baffle manifold. The manifold hides behind a wall with only the opening firing into the room, so esthetics are not a concern (any ole 3/4" plywood should do the trick).

The bass these things put out is great - loud, tight, deep and clear. You need a large space for the back of the manifold to fire into, but a basement usually gives good options. Check out this website:

http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelybaffled/

Be sure and click on their project link pages. Some of these designs are pretty sweet.

Andy

[crexrun]

Wow, finally some concrete answers! Thanks a lot guys, I appreciate that a bunch. So I'm assuming I got a pretty good deal on these, they were in a church for thier whole life, they look like new, barely dusty, and obviously not abused.

As far as the Ib setup, I have looked into that somewhat, for when I build my house, in the next 2-4 years is the plan. For now, I think maybe the answer for me is a single 15, in a 6 cu ft cab as DrWho instructed, I will just get a good active crossover and run my second SE-9060 to that, and I can simply set the enclosure centered between the 301's for the moment.

I would do the infinite baffle setup right now, but unfortunately, I am renting, so now modifications are allowed, especially mounting 4 15"s in the floor in the kitchen!

What do you guys think about having the 301's off the floor, it seems to sound fine, I don't NOTICE any difference due to refraction, but I'm still new to some of this. I've been playing with audio for about 10 years, but I have never gotten onto the wavelength/refraction train, I've been more concerned with building car systems, which of course, are a different beast all together.

Thanks again for all the info and comments, and thanks for welcoming me to the site! Justin