Jef

Hi Easylistener, I don't think the RF3's are fused but not sure. Glad to hear your system improved. Best regards ... Jef

Hello Easylistener, it seems I misunderstood you, indeed if you want a more unrestricted sound you have to provide more headroom, at the settings we are discussing the amp will reach its limits quiet easily. But as you wrote even '0' is allready loud on a RF3 (or equally efficient speaker). At these levels the room makes an important contribution too, in a heavily dampened room you will hear the distortion faster than in a room with reverberation as this tends to mask the onset of the distortion. Jef

Hi Jalen, for some reason Denon has chosen to make their readout max at +18 (for the models I could verify 1603,2803 and 3803) - this is clearly written in the manual - if you have increased the preset of a channel the max readout becomes 18-(value of increase). O (zero) is not exactly 1 watt but very close to it. Your deduction is correct - our hearing is logarithmic, a 10 dB increase equals a tenfold increae in power but only roughly a doubling in perceived loudness. see table below : 1 Watt - 10 Watt - 100 Watt - 1000 Watt 0dBW - 10 dBW - 20dBW - 30 dBW (dBW means dB relative to 1 Watt) Diffences between 80 or 90 even 130 Watt amplifiers are barely noticable as the difference between the 130 and 80 Watt amplifier is only about 2 dB - at high volumes our ear cannot distinguish differences of 2 dB anymore. The differences you do hear between them are a result of the current abilities (as I described previously), different design and components but definitly not because of the increase in Wattage. Again ref the lower rated HK amps with large current abilities that are reported to sound louder than higher Wattage amps. to easylistener, I can only refer you to your manual, I have no idea why your amp would distort from +2, I can play undistorted up to +5 even +7 (this is incredibly loud). It does depend on the input signal - not all sources output the same max signal - but still. Jef

Hello Usparc, yes I would also like to know how you did the tweaking, looks very good. I also noticed the vibrating panels of my RF3II's. Nice job. Jef

To Jalen01 A Denon goes up to +20, zero is 1 Watt (with a normalized input signal) and -5 means you where reaching decent levels with rougly 0.25 Watts :-) The increased bass control with high power amplifiers is a direct consequence of their increased current handling abilities (and design to handle complex (inductive and/or capacitive) loads for some models). This means that amplifier A - rated 50 Watts and amplifier B rated 400 Watts will sound different when both are delivering an equal 1 watt, amplifier B is able to deliver and sustain much larger currents into the complex load a large woofer presents. Harman Kardon, for instance, refers to this directly by pointing out that their amps have high current capability (35 and 45 Amps), if you calculate this rating into 6 ohms the amplifier 'would' deliver 12150 Watts (!) at that moment. 'Would' because these calculations asume a resistive load, which is incorrect, but that it's the increased current capability that 'control' the woofer making him sound thighter. Not an add for HK as a lot of other amplifiers can deliver high currents as well. Jef

Taurus, is right. Isn't it nice to know that the Klipsches where filling your room 'full with sound' with an average power of only .1 watt (a tenth of a Watt :-) there is still a thousand times more in the amp - will sound roughly 8 times louder. Jef

Hi dave, thanks for the feedback. I suppose the Klipsch engineers play with the cross-over frequency when they 'voice' the Centers, and that the different tuning is indicative of taking the differences of the enclosures into account. Unlike you I do notice the difference during playback not only with testtones. But I'm going to wait for my new receiver to examine the 'problem' further as I suspect that the present DSP is a major contributing factor and would like to have more control over the low pass settings. Based on the freestanding performance on top of the RF I think I will be able to get it right in the end. Best ... Jef

I would put it above the TV read more in the thread 'RF3II & RC3II timbre question' for the reason

Tom, that is a very interesting idea and I will try this out as soon as I have my new receiver as I can't set the main speakers 'small' with the present one. In any casy it will asure that both the RF's and RC start at the same frequency which I can imagine might improve the coherence between them. As far as the driver surface goes I would think that the speaker with largest surface might sound deeper but I have the reverse: the Center sounds 'darker' - 'boxed' - 'duller' and the large RF's sound clear and natural. Still think it is the effect of the wooden shelfs that colours the sound and changes the timbre. Thanks for the suggestion. - Vladi, if you measure each speaker seperatly and you have to increase the center with 4 dB for equal soundpressure this would suggest that the center sensitivity is 4 dB below the mains (98-4=94 instead of the 97 as stated). Unless the receiver is calibrated differenty for the single center which I doubt but not sure as I read some confusing stories around this. In any case as one can adjust the speakers individualy it is not that important, only on observation on the sensitivity. Jef

Did the positioning test, put the RC on top of an RF and compared him with the other channel (not the ideal setup but nevertheless). As the frequency range of both speakers is different comparisons are not that easy but the timbre of the RC was much closer to the RF now. As Geo mentioned I also think that the Center is not completely broken in yet - it would be nice if someone could confirm whether the sensitivity changes after the speaker is played for a longer time or with louder music. I think it is perfectly possibly that by exercising the cones to larger amplitudes the stiffness of the supporting material diminishes, this might even be frequency dependent to a certain degree. Dave, my speaker is positioned as you can see in the Klipsch folder of the RF7 only not on a glass shelf but a wooden one. I thought this would be acceptable as it is not really a box - the sides are open but the fact that you have 2 parallel wooden shelfs seems to be enough to add its own 'wooden timbre'. I forwarded the speaker about an inch which improved the situation but it is not the same as 'freestanding' yet. I guess I could change the setup and put the speaker above the TV unless I could improve the present situation further, any suggestions ? Furthermore I noticed that the receiver itself has it's impact. Creating a phantom with 2 speakers has a different soundstage than listening to the center alone. I also have the impression that the receiver sounds less dynamic when put into surround mode compared to the 2 channel mode. But this will have to wait a few days untill I have him replaced. Jef

Hi John, I have a 2 channel tube amplifier and made the mistake to buy a - rather - inexpensive HT receiver as I thought it would do for HT. The difference between the two is considerable, the speakers are very analytic you will not only hear all the goodies in the music you now also hear all the faults (in the recording and in your equipment). I can only recommend that you look for the best one you can find or even save up, at least you should audition the receiver. Jef

Thanks for the replies. I sit in the middle - dead center and all speakers pointed towards the seating position. Both motors and the horn function. The speaker is located below the television with care to decouple the speaker cabinet from the shelf it sits on. Regarding the 'dull' sound, a 'boxy' sound would be a better description. I will put the Center in the same location as one of the main speakers to see what difference this makes. I also notice that I have to really increase the center channel volume- more than I would expect from a 1 dB sensitivity difference between the RF and the RC. Is it possible that the Klipsch speakers reach their stated sensitivity after playing them really loud for a period of time ? Jef

Hello, the RF3II and RC3II are supposed to be timbre matched, but my center speaker sounds a lot duller - both with the noise testtone and when switching between the center and phantom mode. Actualy my system sounds a lot better in phantom mode than with the center . My RF's are 7 months old and the center is a month old, but I don't have the impression that the center sound is changing anymore. Are there other people who experienced the same problem and was it possible to fix it ? Jef

Thanks for the advice. Bought the Denon 2803. Jef

Hello, I'm listening to an older 5.1 receiver with prologic on Klipsch Reference 3II series speakers . 5.1 and SACD is fine but the surround emulation of stereo sources leaves much to be desired. Basicaly it seems I have to choose between Logic 7 and Prologic II without adjustments (H/K) and Prologic II full implementation (with center width and other adjustments) like Denon and others. Which of the new systems would give me the clearest dialogues ? Thanks ... Jef