chops

Oh yeah... oops! [:$] Thanks Dean. []

BTW, here's a few pics I just took...

Bill, Once the cops finally got to us (1 hour later no less!!!!), we walked to the house (only 500 feet away) and my bro called the insurance and gave them all the info. Then after we went back up to my bro's SUV, and I pulled the tail pipe and fender out of the tire, we drove the truck home. It was about a half hour later when the cops stopped by the house to tell us that they found the schmuck, and they gave us all of his info as well. My bro then called the insurance back up and gave them that idiot's info as well. So in short, pretty much everything has been taken care off. I'm just wondering if any of us are going to be sore as heck in the morning from whiplash or something.

Chops I am a little offended using that age (I am 21) and making some correlations with age and bad drivers.... I have a perfect record and I have been driving since 16. I also worked for a year commuting 60 miles each day on highway. I have not been in one accident nor had any moving violations. I had one parking ticket in my life and that was dismissed cause I took a picture of where I was supposedly over the line. I will not claim that I don't speed or am the perfect driver, but I trust myself and know my limits. I am more concerned with how the other people react on the streets than myself. Well, I guess I could have said that he was a stupid punk who just so happened to be 23 years old. []

This absolutely sucks! My two brothers and I (jt1stcav and "other brother") went out to eat tonight after work. We were in my brother's Chevy SUV, went to the Chinese restaurant, stopped by Block Buster, bought a few movies then came home. My bro was driving, I was in the front passenger seat, and jt1stcav was in the back seat. We all had our belts on (thank God) and were stopped, waiting for traffic to pass so we could pull into our neighborhood, no more than 500 feet from our house! Anyway, as we're sitting there with the brakes on and our left turn signal flashing, my brother just happened to glance into the rear view mirror at the same time I looked into the passenger side door mirror as we saw headlights coming towards us at 40mph at least. The jack@$$ smacked right into us without even hitting his brakes! He then starts his car back, pulls around us on the sidewalk and hauls @$$ off down the road!!! A minute or so later, a woman pulls up in her driveway that we are now sitting by, pulls her little child (about 2 years old) our of her car and asked us if we needed any help. She called the cops for us since for whatever reason we left our cell phones at home. About a half mile down the road, there's a rather sharp "S" turn that he flew around, nearly going into the on-coming lane and almost side-swiping the helpful woman and her. Fortunately, a retired state trooper saw that same car flying around the other end of that "S" curve with someone elses rear bumper in thier front bumper (ours!), so he turned around and followed the jerk. He then came up and stopped to tell us that he too called the cops and told them exactly where this idiot was. It was some stupid 23 year old punk driving someone elses car and pulled into his own yard and drove around to the back of his house to hide the car. The cops just stopped by our house to tell us that they found him and gave him 2 tickets. But at least we have his information and have notified the insurance. I always thought that someone that does a hit and run would get arrested. What's the deal with that?!?!?!?! At least we are all fine, my bro's truck is still drivable (after I pulled the tail pipe and part of the fender off of the rear right tire), and that moron was found. Man, what a way to spend a Friday night, huh?

I'm using modded Type B networks, now considered Type CS II networks... Woofer crossed over @ 437Hz via 68uF cap Squawker crossed over @ 400Hz via 500uH inductor Squawker crossed over @ 4500Hz via 7uF cap (4uF + 3uF) Tweeter crossed over @ 4500Hz via 4uF cap (2uF + 2uF)

Al, My concern is with the 1979 K-33E at higher freqencies. How high and cleanly can it play? Should I try running both the K-33 and 902 at the Cornwall's stock 600Hz points? Is there a way I could get the squawker to cross over at say -12dB or -18dB instead of the normal -6dB? Thanks, Charles

Dana, I realize that it does take time to listen to and hear the changes. However, I should let you know that almost litereally every minute that I'm awake and home, the stereo is on, and I'm sitting right in front of it all the time. I put a lot of hours on my system and listening time. It's a good thing I don't have tube equipment anymore, or I'd be having to buy new tubes every couple of months! LOL Also, I listen to a large selection of music every day; from Metalica to Mozart, Norah Jones to Jimmy Buffett, JS Bach's BWV 565 to Front Line Assembly, Kenny G to Cesar Franck. You name it, I listen to it, except for rap, r&b, reggae, country, elevator, bluegrass and a few others. There's a lot to be said for having a laptop with wireless internet always in the music room. [8-|]

Sorry Al. I should have been a little more clear on what I was asking. I was referring to the last post I made that started out as... "Okay, I need some ideas and/or info... I am getting ready to buy a pair of Altec 902s from GPA in a couple of days, if not sooner! And depending on the price, I may end up getting a third one as well for the center channel." And yes, I too have been too lazy to switch the tweeters over to front mount. Maybe I'll do that later tonight or something. We'll see. []

Ahh... Now I see. that makes perfect sense to me! Boy, I'm really learning a lot of good stuff here. It's only making me more eager to get started on building one even more! BTW Al, could you please check out my other thread "And then came the CornScaltec... " at your convenience and put in your 2 cents on that subject as well. I'd really appreciate it. Thanks again, Charles

Okay, I need some ideas and/or info... I am getting ready to buy a pair of Altec 902s from GPA in a couple of days, if not sooner! And depending on the price, I may end up getting a third one as well for the center channel. Anyway.... My plan is that I would like to get these up and running ASAP. Since the K-55Vs are 16 ohm, I'm thinking I should just go ahead and buy the 16 ohm 902s, slap them into the CS II networks and let them fly as is for now. And in the meantime, I can do a little more research on building a nice little 2-way network to switch over to. Now my questions are: 1) Couldn't I just disconnect the 500uH inductor from the squawker along with the 4uF cap of the tweeter and have a make-shift 2-way crossover? 2) If I were to do the above mentioned "mod", would that keep the crossover points in spec for the K-33 and 902 at around 400Hz for both and allow the 902 to run all the way out? 3) Or should I just leave the network as is and use the 902 as a pure midrange just like the K-55V is right now, then just switch over to the 2-way network once I get it built? So whatch' think gang?

I love it when Al and Dean get into these little disagreements. I always benefit from them in some way, with all of the extra technical information getting tossed around and explained in great detail. [] BTW Al, in your last post on the first page, were you referring to the stock Type B woofer network as being -18dB? I thought that would have certainly been -12dB because of the single 2.5mH inductor and the K-33's 1mH VC inductance. Or were you referring to the CS II network with the 68uF cap inserted?

Mick, I tell you, I'm really looking forward to getting them. I have heard nothing but great things about the 902s. BTW, how are you running the 902 in your Belles? You wouldn't happen to have any pics to share, would you? Sorry, what can I say? I like pictures. [8-|] Charles

I'm sorry... I think I might have missed something here. Who's filter/which filter is that in the plot?

Welcome back Craig! We've missed you! I hope all is well with you and yours.

This brings up some interest. First off, what impedence is the K-33E? I've heard 4, 8 and 16 ohms. Which is it? Also, if the AK-3 is the only network that is correct, then what should the proper component values be for my CS II networks? Is the 2.5mH and 68uF not correct? One more thing, what would it take to go from a -6dB design to a -24dB design, say for the woofer section alone as an example? Actually, in stock Type B trim, the network has the 2.5mH inductor (wired in series), the VC is a 1mH inductor (wired in parallel). This is 2 components making a total of 3.5mH for a 600Hz point with a cutoff of -12dB (2nd Order Linkwitz)? This is "series-parallel"? Now with the CS II network, you have the 2.5mH inductor (wired in series), the VC is a 1mH inductor (wired in parallel), and the 68uF cap (also wired in parallel) making a 437Hz point with a cutoff of -18dB (3rd Order Butterworth)? But this makes it "series-parallel-parallel"? I really find your ESN desings very intriguing, but I believe that is all beyond the scope of my noggin at this time, at least not without some major study time in basic and advance electronics and microwave. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- See, here's the thing. I find all of this crossover design stuff very interesting. Most of the components are fairly inexpensive from what I have seen. My ultimate goal is to evenually have ALL of the speaker components (drivers, horns, cabinets, networks) that I have bought and put together myself so that I can have my very own pair of custom Klipsch "clone" speakers and I can restore my father's Cornwalls back to their original state, minus the new 2uF and 4uF caps in the networks that simply needed to be replaced. All I need still are the GPA Altec 902 drivers, Bob's CT1526 woofers and the network components bought and built, which I obviously want to do myself. So over the next few weeks/months, I want to learn about crossover design, why they do what they do, and how to build them, buy the proper parts, and go to town. This way, if my father wants his Cornwalls back or wants to sell them, I won't be up S*** creek, if you know what I mean. [] Charles

BTW, would this be a good inductor for a crossover? LOL [] Actually though, is there a difference between a "choke" and an inductor?

So in order to not fry the amp, you have to have a series connection first. That actually makes sense. I assume you could also use 2 inductors or 2 caps of a given value as well, as long as they are in series. So with my networks, having the 2.5mH inductor and 68uF cap on the woofer, it is now -12dB per octave? (just for the woofer that is) Having two caps wired in parallel to create a single larger value, does that not make the slope steeper, because they are working together as one? So it would still be only -6dB? Is my current network considered 2nd order for the woofer and 1st order for the rest? BTW, shortly after asking about the "L" and "C", I figured it out on my own while looking at a schematic that Bob posted in another thread. Again, thanks for being so patient and helpfull. Charles

speakerfritz, Thanks for that link. Pretty neat stuff. I'll have to play around with it a little more when I get the chance. []

Greg, Thanks for your info as well. The reason I was thinking about getting the 16 ohm 902s is because the K-55V is also 16 ohms and I could possibly just switch out the K-55V with the 902 while keeping the network as is and keeping the crossover point where it's at. Charles

Hi Al, This whole part I understand clearly. And I guess, if you really wanted to, you could make a simple 2-way crossover with just two inductors, right? Just wire an inductor in parallel for the tweeter and an inductor in series for the woofer. But how do you determine what value inductor or cap to use with what impedence of driver? (4, 8 or 16 ohms) What in a network determines the rolloff rate? (-6, -12, -18, -24dB per octave) Not that you would ever want to, but is it possible to have the signal only 45* out of phase or 135* out of phase? You said that 2 element filters are 45+45 and -45+-45. What about 1 or 3 element filters? I am not sure what "L" and "C" values are. I think I pretty much understand this as well. It helped me a lot more, once I read it 3 or 4 times! LOL Thanks so far for the great info.

I've been trying to figure this out for some time now. However, I did not want to continually bother Bob, Dean, Al, etc, etc directly with such silly questions via PMs or emails. So instead, I figured I'd just make a thread about it and let whoever say what they want, when they want. Ever since I replaced the "old and tired" stock caps in my Type B networks, then proceeding to modify them to Type CS II status along with all the mods to the CWs, I became interested in crossover design. I think it's very interesting that one can tweak a crossover to get specific drivers to integrate better and perform better together, all the while improving the overall sound quality as well. I will soon be buying a pair of GPA (Altec) 902-16A drivers to replace the stock K-55V drivers I'm using right now on my 511B horns. If I really wanted to, I could probably run them on the current CS II networks, crossing them over from 400Hz to 4500Hz @ -6dB per octave. I'm not sure what the difference in effeciency is between the K-55V and 902, so I might have to figure out some kind of attenuation for the 902s to sound right. However, I have been told by quite a few people to let these 902s run all the way out to 20kHz and try running my CWs as 2-ways. This is perfectly fine with me, but I'd like to try and build the networks myself from scratch. I imagine it should be simple enough. The only question then would be, what crossover point and 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc, etc order? I see that capacitors generally roll the bottom end of a driver off and also invert the phase 180 degrees - reverses the polarity(?) while inductors roll the top end of drivers off, and autoformers pretty much just attenuate the output of a given driver depending on the tap used. Let's use my current Type CS II networks as an example and let me dissect it to see if I have this right... Woofer: A) The stock 2.5mH inductor on the K-33 is used to roll it off on its top end at 600Hz @ -6dB. It is fed the (+) straight off the input, then feeds the (+) on the woofer output. The 68uF cap that I added (which normally rolls off the bottom) is in fact helping roll of the top end of the K-33 a little more to around 437Hz, still @ -6dB. However, this cap is installed across both the (+/-) terminals. From what I can tell, none of these components "attenuate" the output of the woofer. 1) So installing a cap across both (+/-) terminals rolls of the top end only, but if it was installed on either (+) or (-) side in series it would roll off the bottom end only? Squawker: The stock T2A autoformer is supplying the signal to both the K-55V and CT125 (K77) through the main (-) input terminal. The K-55 is connected to the T2A via the #3 tap and a 500uH inductor to (+) on the squawker terminal. 1) How is the inductor feeding the K-55 a (+) signal if the signal going into the autoformer is (-)? 2) Does the autoformer or inductor reverse the polarity? C) The 4uF and 3uF caps that make up the 400Hz low end of the K-55 gets confusing. They get their signal directly to the main (+) on the input terminal. They are connected to tap #5 on the T2A. 1) If the signal is first going to the 7uF cap bank, then into tap #5 as (+), where does it go from there,.. tap #0 to (-) which ultimately makes it to the (-) on the squawker? 2) If so, doesn't it hit ALL of the (-) terminals throughout the strip? 3) How does it effect the other drivers? 4) And did it become (-) from going through the caps? Tweeter: D) The two 2uF caps for the CT125, which lower its point down to 4500Hz, is wired to tap #4 which goes to the (+) on the tweeter. 1) Again, is the polarity somehow reversed? How would I go about building a simple 2-way network when I get the 902s in? Would all I need is a 2.5mH inductorand 68uF cap for the K-33, an autoformer and 4uF cap for the 902s? Thanks in advance from everyone who gives some insight! []

Hi Dean, I tried using that software on my HP laptop last year and it was unbearable. Now since I'm running Linux on the laptop, I can only use it on my web/file server which is running Win XP Pro C.E. in the bedroom. Even my other tower is running Linux now. The soundcard is the SoundBlaster Audigy 2 Platinum. I'm using the SPDIF digital out to the stereo and the "L" channel Aux input along with a dbx 760x mic preamp. So you think that plot looks pretty good, huh? I have to admit, I am rather satisfied with the overall sound so far. []

Nope, nothing wrong with the soundcard either. I installed TrueRTA and the card produced clean sound all the way up to 20kHz. I tried WinISD again, and the distortion was back. It's obviously something with WinISD Pro. And yes, I have the latest version. As for my Cornwalls, I'm running the Altec 511B horns with K-55Vs, CT125s, stock K-33Es, modded Type B networks. They are now considered Type CS II. Check these two links... http://forums.klipsch.com/members/chops.aspx http://chops.tzo.com/klipsch.htm <-- Be sure to scroll all the way down. There are two galleries. Speaking of TrueRTA, I hooked up the dbx mic preamp, ran the mic cable into the family room (theater room) and connected it to the RatShack SPL meter, got it calibrated with TrueRTA, plugged in the correction file for the SPL meter, and ran a few tests. With pink noise, it's still showing the top end rolling off, but with the "Quick Sweep", things seem to be a little more even. Pink Noise... Quick Sweep...

What do you mean by configuration of mains? They are crossed over at 50Hz, as well as the sub, if that's what you mean. As for the tweeter output, it baffles me also. Maybe I'm in a null? Yes, the sub is at 50Hz, as are the CWs. ALL level and tone controls on the Technics amp (which is powering the sub) are completely bypassed. In fact, bacause I'm using the "Main In" on that amp, the tone/level controls aren't even in the chain. I have the sub level on the receiver set at -4dB and the mains at -0dB. If I have it set any lower, I won't get anything out of it. As it is now, I never hear it unless there is something strong below 50Hz. Honestly, the system doesn't sound anything like what the charts show. Everything is very natural and normal sounding. The distortion I heard was not from blown tweeters or the crossovers. Like I said in the above post, I heard the same exact distortion at those freqs through headphones plugged directly into the Audigy card, both on the rear of the computer and in the front on the control panel (box).