Travis In Austin
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Posts posted by Travis In Austin
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Dwilawyer:
The catalog is long gone. It wasn't a manual but a 3/4" thick iindustrial info book of some sort which had all of their machines mostly the 25 head 2" jobs. . But it did say 50 plays, not 5000.
JJK
I have all of their main manuals, and it would be 2" 24 track, not 25, and most of those are going to be in their MM line and NONE of them talk about 50 plays, or any number for that matter, causing a loss of frequency response, added noise or anything else.
Ampex created a primer on magnetic recording called “Magnetic Recording Theory” where they state: “7. Tape can be played back thousands of times, which permits extracting every bit of usual information from the recording.”
What you were probably reading is the part where it says if you do not demagnitize your heads you can suffer problems either in the nature of added noise (HISS), or permanent partial loss of the high frequencies. It very possible that the manual suggested demagnetizing the heads every 50 plays, or 50 hours, to avoid the possibility of the heads becoming magnetized and damaging the recording (the current suggested rule of thumb is every 8 hours of play if you do not have a magnetometer to check).
EVERY Ampex manual I have ever seen says that you should demagnetize the heads if they become magnetized. The early ones stated it should be done if they become magnetized and didn’t set forth a specific interval. They stated that failing to do so would cause added noise of 10 to 12db. Later on they stated that it would cause added noise and permanent partial loss of high frequency reproduction, and they also started suggesting regular demagnetization at prescribed intervals of time.
But this is quite different then saying that playing a tape will cause loss of playback frequency response, it doesn’t. I just don’t want people to get the impression that playing their tape will cause damage to it, it doesn’t if your machine is clean, both tape path and heads, and you demagnetize your heads properly. As long as those parameters are met, and there are no issues with the tape material, they can play their tapes 50, 100 or even 500 times and they are not going to lose ANY frequency response in their tape.
Travis -
That's the nostalgia part I mentioned. Takes us back to our youth when we all wanted R2R machines.
When we all wanted R2R machines and Klipsch speakers. Nostalgia, kind of like Cornwalls and Heresys.[
] Quality never goes out of style. -
Useless information: According to my very old Ampex pro catalog/manual after 50 plays of a tape the high end frequency response looses 3 to 10 db on a very good machine. Also one 50 micron particle of cigarette smoke can loose you 3 to 10db on the high end. They also had a special 2" wow and flutter test tape for $300.00 that was the industry standard which was accidentally recorded almost perfect. (plus /minus 1db)
JJK
JJ,
Recheck that manual, I don't think an Ampex manual will say anything about loss of anything at 50 plays. Maybe 5000 plays, but not 50, I could be wrong, but I have a lot of Ampex manuals and I have never read anything about loss frequency response by playback. As to the smoke particle, that is absolutly true, but a fingerprint, which is a fraction of that width can cause loss. But it is pretty easy to keep tape both smoke and fingerprint free. The attached article, at P. 22 discusses this along with all of the issues assocaited with tape storage, care, etc.
Travis
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I really have not decided to go this direction, but, taking into consideration that I know nothing about these critters. If you guy had to put a list to gether of say the top 3 or 4, 2 channel decks. Top price for a good functioning rebuilt unit, quality unit, say $500 to $750. Am I in the ballpark or all wet.
I have probably asked the question before but forgot, old age is hell.
Thanks
Cigarbum
Cigarbum,
From reading through this thread it sounds like you should start with a 4 track machine rather than a 2 track deck, simply because there is so much more in the way of prerecorded tapes in 4 track. You can play around with that deck and if you are pretty certain that you want to do some serious recording you can look for a two track deck.
In terms of the best of the best 4 track consumer deck Revox is going to be on that list, and Tandberg 10XD,the Tandberg is 3 speed,3.75, 7.5 and 15 ips, 4 track, and special record bias that allows a dynamic range approaching 90 db in the mid frequency. On a Tandberg you have to make sure they will stand behind it, there are no parts, and and just a handfull of people that can work on them. Soundsmith in NY will refurburish your unit for you but you will pay a ton for this. The Technics RS series decks are great, but the prices are sky high and are not worth the money given the limited playback quality (in my opinion). So unless you can steal one for four or five hundred, in great shape, I would avoid these two. With the Revox you want to make sure that it is in good working order, and the person selling will back them up. Stay away from Ebay sale where they are not going to allow you to return it.
Someone made a very good suggestion and that is the Otari MX 5050B-II, but you want to be sure it is the 4 head model. This gives you the best of both worlds, you can play back 4 track pre-recorded reels, and you can RECORD and play back 2 track tapes. Has all 3 speeds, 3.75, 7.5 and 15 IPS so you can figure out for yourself that the difference between 7.5 and 15 isn't really worrying about, and that there is no noticable hiss when you have a S/N ratio on these "modern" decks of over 70db. But, as also suggested, beware on these decks. The std. 3 head configuration will only allow you to record and play two track tapes. These decks were mostly used in professional settings and universities where they were used and abused almost to death. They are bought at auction and resold on ebay all the time. Again, if they won't stand behind it, I would pass. There is a guy in Florida who refurbishes a lot of Otari on Ebay, I have heard mixed reviews. If you see something specific, regardless of the brand, post it here and we can get you some quick feedback.
You may want to consider something like a Pioneer Rt 1011, it is an great, bullet proof deck, and not too much money to get your feet wet to see if you want to play around more with this. They are in the 150 to 250 range, will play 10" tapes, 4 track, 3.75 and 7.5 speeds. They are well built and never seem to fail. Teac 1000 and 2000 are great decks that are also bullet proof.
If you can find a nice Revox I am sure you will be happy with it, but you have other choices that are well within your budget.
Travis
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Wow, how cool that must have been.
Ki, if you want to know a little more about these tapes you can go here:
http://forums.klipsch.com/blogs/amy/archive/2008/03/10/who-here-remembers-klipschtape.aspx
They were not demo tapes, they were sold seperately, but what you all had certainly looks like it could be a prototype for the tapes they eventually issued. Amy has not
been able to tell me yet how many were sold and what outlets they were
sold through. At some point they switched to a state of the art ampex
deck and and started recording at 7.5 ips, two track stereo. The tape y'all have appears to be almost a prototype. As the blog entry above mentions, it appears that 8 titles were made by Klipschtape, 7001 to 7008. I am attaching the insert for KST--7001, and it is 7.5 IPS stereo. I am guessing that 7001 was the first tape in the series, so what was the tape you all had, something that John Eargle sent to dealers to see if they had an interest in selling the tapes? Dr. Edgar new John Eargle, in fact I think there was a SoCal Klipschowners meeting that John Eargle spoke at. Unfortunatley he passed away a few years ago before I had a chance to try and ask him some of these questions.Paul indicates in
the box insert that one of the channels was recorded with increased bass
response? The insert indicated that it was a stereo recording, but
under the specifications section he says that one channel is boosted in
some way. Could you tell a difference between the left right channel? I
guess at that period of time they were thinking that most people were
going to be playing back in mono? Or this could have been one of John
Eargle's first attempt at recording, although I think he worked for
Mercury Records before coming to work for Paul. Maybe stereo was so new
that John didn't understand that you don't want to record one channel
with boost on a stereo tape?Did the owner of the tape provide any insight on these issues?
Travis
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I have a Sony TC-765 I got a couple of years back for 25.00 that's in great shape except for holdback tension on the supply side. It's electronic and I am clueless as to how it works. Any thoughts?
That is a real easy fix on that unit as I recall. It is a POT adjustment, and is set with a volt meter, you may not even need a tensionometer, which is great if you can avoid, becasue they are impossible to come by. I take it you don't have the service manual for that unit? If not, let me see if I can find you one on PDF to send you.
Travis
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Jay sent me a CD burnt on a basic Sony burner of one of those tapes. It was extraordinary, better than 98% of the commercial CD's. I'm not surprised he has a system to match his matchless taste.
I have a near perfect T765...except the holdback tension is badly screwed. It's electronic and I am clueless as to how to adjust it. I just put a rule with felt on it to produce drag with a weight on it. Very crude and a nuisance. Travis (DWILawyer) seems to have dropped out. I figure he might have been able to help.
Dave
I'm here, how can I help?
Travis
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Uh, not quite. My Zerostat is, ???? 30+ years old. It does not work any more.
And if you are trapping dust or accumulating anything that sticks in the grooves after GruvGlide treatment, then GruvGlide was not applied properly. That is, in fact, the tell-tale sign of improper GruvGlide application.
Art,
You are correct on the limited life, they can and to wear out, but my current zerostat is 10 plus years old and still going strong. You can tell when they start to go just from the amount of static that remains, but they also include that hand checker tip just to be sure.
As far as the dust accumulation, I guess it is like everything else where milage may vary. In the southwest we have more sand type dust, I don't know if that makes a difference or not. But Gruv-glide is tallow quaternary ammonium salt, used in some anti-static dryer cloths, a mixture of animal fat and ammonium salts in a solvent that is evaporates quickly. It is is not applied correctly, as you say, you risk the accumulation of salts in the grove which for sure you don't want. But it still leaves an animal fat based layer (that is what makes the shine you speak of) on your record and while it won't attract dust or dirt, if it lands on there it can stick. It was designed to last at least ten plays, which means it is evaporating/vaporizing with stylus contact or, possibly, is partialy being picked up by the stylus but it is going somewhere and that is what always worried me.
I get the same results with good cleaning, zerostat and anti-static sleeves. I may play around with it again on some records I don't really care about and see what the sound difference is and if any residue comes after proper application. I think it would almost be impossible to tell if it makes any noticible difference on stylus wear, or record wear, since it is going to take a lot of records to get to the point of wear with good clean records and proper tracking weight etc. even without an application of Last or GG. But if it sounds better, than I am all for it. AES actually did a study on playing wet records vs. dry ones, since a lot of folks claimed that playing them wet resutlted in better sound, etc. I can't remember what the paper concluded.
Travis
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Art,
I am really sorry to hear about your experience with Clarity vinyl from Classic. It seems you ran into a bad patch of luck. I have gotten all of my Clarity lp's from themusic.com (the affilliated online outlet of Classic) where you can request one of the first 50 pressings and ask them to hand select a copy for you and so, knock on wood, I have not experienced the same situation you have.
All pressing plants have issues, ask anyone who bought the Doors limited edition set (RTI). I agree with you however, at this price point the quality control should be better. You might want to send Mike Hobson an email at Classic and let him know what you experienced and I am pretty sure he will help you get the thing straightened out.
Have you returned both LP's yet? If not I would write him a note for sure, as opposed to dealing with the people you bought it from, and ask if you can send them to him to check out, and from past experience I would expect that he is going to find you a good set of vinyl. He is an audiophile so he is also going to talk your language as well.
Out of curiosity, where did you purchase yours from?
Travis
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Hey Y'all
Thanks for thinking of me. I am alive and o.k., very busy and, as Gary says, have a lot going on in my life right now. I don't think I will be making it to Hope next month either, but you never know.
Cornman, come on over and listen to Jubes, I would love to have you over. Any evening or weekend, let me know.
Travis
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An afterthought, what type of sleeves are you using? If you are putting them back into original paper sleeves this could be adding to a static problem in a dry climate. The antistatic sleeves that are available really are just that. Antistatic sleeves and Zerostat should eliminate any and all static problems.
Travis
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Being in a dry climate I thought it might help with some of the pops on really dry or windy days.
If you are getting noise from static electricty, whether it be pops or a lot of noise when you pull the record off the platter, than I concur 100 percent with Oldtimer, drop the $80 or so for a Zerostat, lasts forever, and it really, really works. I used Groove Glide 10 or 15 years ago on some records (manufactured in Las Vegas, where it is warm and dry like where you live) and while it does work for awhile, the draw back is that it traps dust and dirt. It is not a cleaner, so whatever pops and click are in your record to begin with, are still going to be there, and the residue is going to build up on your stylus.
If you are getting pops and clicks from other sources such as dirt, etc. that is a whole different topic and there is a lot of great information about that in threads that you can search with terms like record clean, etc. I personally use Disk Doctor with his brushes.
Travis
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I don't know, but to me there is a lot of self-serving nonsense being put out by the recording engineers. But I'm probably missing the point of why I started this thread and that is stereo vs mono. I understand the attraction of mono for old jazz Blue Notes and such, after all they were not mastered with AM radio play in mind. For pop music, though? Would there really be a large group of people who really want these songs in mono?
There is an important distinction between recording and mixing/mastering. They were indeed recorded with mono in mind, and stereo was only given a secondary consideration. The mixing and mastering would be specific for mono as well as stereo. In the UK, and the US, stereo was a sliver of the market, and they were gearing up for mass marketing. As has been mentioned, PPM was recorded in ONE day. Two track, vocals on one, instruments on another. This was actually higher tech at the time, instead of all on one track, it was on two. With one track tape being sent for mastering, if the instruments drowned out the vocals there was nothing mastering was going to do to really help.
Recording PPM and WTB the two tracks were mainly for mono, so that mixing and mastering could reach the right balance of vocals and instruments. For stereo they just ran vocals out of left channel and everything else out of the right. Ever wonder by those early 60's stereo amps, Mac esp. had a multi selector swittch, L to RL, R to LR, Stereo reverse, etc.? If you prefer your vocals out of the right it was very easy to do, insturmental only, vocals only, etc.
Things are complicated further because in addition to recordinng for mono as primary, there was different mixing and mastering for the U.S. issues, resulting in major differences between the releases.
Travis
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Back on topic thebes. The early original monos are collectible so the current marketeers play into that by creating a new mono collectible. It's simple baby boomer crass. People who want to listen will more than likely get the stereo version. Mono on a cd?
Six of the mono's have never been available on CD before this set. They would want the mono because of the style of "stereo" back then doesn't fit with their ears, or the fact that stereo was secondary for George Martin, up to even the White Album, everything was recorded with Mono as the primary, and stereo was only secondary. In some cases, the "stereo" is rechanneled fake stereo.
As far as the stereo set, that is a whole 'nother can of worms because when the first CD stereo "remaster" issues came out they included mono mixes in error. Kind of a lousy deal, because of their error you have to get this "new and improved" remastered set to be sure that you have the right mixes that you prefer.
I was never much of a Beatles fan, only likeing a few songs, but collecting the vinyl because of the collectibility. I always prefered the Stones and the Who, and that is probably because I got the chance to see them perform and so I could identify with them more. I must say, I'm really enjoying these sets. Hearing things I never heard before, etc. I have not even got to the mono's yet.
Travis
Travis
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You have managed to create another thread with banter build right in.
I think on the Steve Hoffman forum they are on Stereo vs. Mono Part 32, they go to a new part after they reach 500 posts on each thread.
However, I really like this thread, a very good opportnity to try and get some facts about these mixes in here, on both these latest CD issues, and the vinyl issues, including the Mofi's. The issue is really quite complex, because it is not just a Mono vs. Stereo thing, it is also a U.K vs Capitol on top of mono vs. stereo. It is further complicated by some "stereo" songs being "Duophonic" which is Capitol's fake stereo.
I would say that the Mono's would be the one to get, if you had to chose one, because included several that are issued in Mono for the very first time. Whereas, the stereo issues do not contain anything completly new.
Travis
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OT. OK I'm sure you already know this. The one great Stones album, (I'll write it in a mix of furrin languages just to present you with an intellectual challenge) is:
"Sympatique pour la Diablos "
Only one? Are you kidding me?
Thebes,
Make some tea, sit back and listen to:
Exil sur la rue Principale
Travis
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You got that right my friend!!!!! You been "flying" a lot?
Travis
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I just got one box of each, and I started with the stereo version of Please, Please Me, and the vocals are all out of the right ch and music out of left, but I must say, this version is actually very enjoyable. Rubber Soul is the same way, which is so very odd, but again, it is best stereo version I have ever heard. Revolver was out of the park. I really can't wait to hear the Mono versions tomorrow which have always been my favorite in Reel to Reel format.
Travis
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Any more listening time on them yet, this should be a good weekend for some music.
As a matter of fact I am listening to Jeff Beck at Ronnie Scott's, People Get Ready sung by Joss Stone, absolutely incredible.
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Since this is hiss, it doesn't sound like a kind of hum or powerline interference. High-gain amps can magnify hiss from other components like processors, CD players, etc. etc., and this is relayed to audibility by very high efficiency speakers.
I've never heard any significant hiss from a SS amplifier with no inputs connected. Since you apparently get hiss even after disconnecting ALL inputs (AND removing the interconnects, I assume -- do that too, to be totally sure), I suspect something is wrong with the input circuitry of the amplifier.
I suggest you get on the phone with the manufacturer and try to talk with a tech person.
Larry,
That is very true. If it is hiss that would be totaly unacceptable. If it is hum then it is a different issue. So I guees the first thing in these situation is to determine whether you have a hiss problem or a hum problem. A dimmer can increase hiss, and have nothing to do with the equipment. But I do agree, nothing that I mentioned will help you with hiss. I wouldn't even begin to try and describe the difference, but you sure know it when after you have heard both.
Travis
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I'm a little more surprised at hiss with no interconnect. Does the amp have a level control? If it does, what happens if you turn it down? If not, I suppose the amp's front end is either faulty or simply not designed to minimize its own front-end noise with high efficiency speaks the way most of them are including your Nikko.
Whether or not there is an interconnect or not does not matter. If you are trying to figure out the hum is coming from a cable box on the circuit it is better to use the optical digital output instead of the cable because that can tell you if it is audio vs. video cables that me be where the problem is occuring, and each has a different fix. I was most supprised by this is well until I understood that that amp is connected to everything else on that circuit, whether it is hooked up by an interconnect. What COULD be causing the hum is something else plugged into that same circuit. It COULD be an equipment problem, but this usually a very unlikely situation.
I alway avoided asking questions like "does it have gas" or "are you sure it is plugged in" until I saw Sling Blade and it took the town idiot to figure out why the mower wouldn't work. So I have to ask, the reason your friend is selling the amp isn't because it was "too noisey" for his system or a "hum problem." I'm sure not, but I am prone to skip over the most obvious.
I was on the phone for about 2 hours last night with an electrical engineer trying to figure out a solution to a very similar situatoin as yours, and so just know two things. It is sometimes complicated and difficult to eliminate a ground hum, but on the bright side, once you go through the steps and figure it out there is usually an answer on how to eliminate or minimize that hum.
Travis
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I'm going through this issue right now and it is quite complex. First thing is try a cheater plug on the back of the new amp (3 prong to 2 prong). If that doesn't do it then you have to do through process of elimination and possibly get a filter. There is a great blog right here on Klipsch that discusses all of this..
The interconnect, not having any connected that is, kind of through me for awhile also. How one earth is is creating noise if it isn't "connected to anything." Unless it is a dedicated circuit, it is connected to everything in your house. More importantly, I would bet that you have a cable box connected to that circuit. What you are hearing is the difference in ground potential between the video cables and ground of your AC.
Like I said, I would try a cheater plug first, and if it continues then try disconnecting your cable box, including the cables, this can be done by unpluging the cable box AC, the wire from the house to the box, and any and all audio cables from the back of the cable box. That would isolate your video cables. If in doubt disconnect them all, then try new amp. If no hum then you have isolated problem, then someone can tell you how to best address your problem from that point.
Travis
Edit: This is a link to Part One of "Buzz and Hum" and I believe that there are 5 or 6 parts. http://community.klipsch.com/blogs/andyw/archive/2007/11/09/hum-and-buzz-part-i.aspx
Hope this helps
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JL
That is a 4 track recording deck if it has seperate electronic units, there are much better options if you want to tinker and try out reel to reel. I can fed ex you a prerecorded tape to see if it plays correctly and if the price was right, like $50 you can mess with it and get your money back out of it pretty easy on ebay.
Travis
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I really can't get over how those came out Mike.
You have set the bar way too high.
Travis
] Quality never goes out of style. 
KSP-400 Hum Fix/Possible Non-Powered Tower conversion?
in Technical/Restorations
Posted
The whole thread is incredible. I am worried a little bit, I got my amps back about a year or two ago and have not installed them yet. They just might not work. On the bright side, I have what looks like a great way around it.
Travis