nola
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The LFE output from my preamp-processor (Outlaw 990) is usually set to send all signals below say 40-80 Hz (I can alter this) to the sub amp. So I assume that my pre-pro acts as a sort of electronic xover in this case.The sub amp has all of the knobs I have ever seen on a HT amp. However, I cannot absolutely say that no higher frequencies are sent to the subs. However, with main the main spkr amps turned off, all I hear or feel from the subs is bass "thump. I included DIY subs in the title as both sets of PA subs could be made by skilled DIYers.
I thought car capacitors were used to level off peak battery drain. Maybe the much larger home or PA sub amps use their own built in caps for this purpose.
Any other ideas about need for "foam"??
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Do DIY, HT or PA (Pro Audio) Subwoofers Need Capacitors or Interior "Foam"
I have a pair of Madison Amps M1 218s; moderate level PA road trip
gear. These are dual 18" drivers in each of 2 cabinets (each cab is 2 x
2 x 4 ft). There are no capacitors - only "box", driver framing,
drivers, and wires (and jack handles and speakons - in only....). Not
even any foam / stuffing inside. The "port" is a rectangular opening
between the drivers and faces forward. I run each cab with a separate
Parts Express 1000W sub amp.
Would caps or adding foam / stuffing add anything?
I think car subs use caps; and my low end PA Behringer B1800X subs -
older, non current pro version - have a crossover network inside, and
some foam, plus 2 ports. But they also have a bi amp vs passive switch,
and the network is prob for biamping. These have speakons for in and
out.
Any comments appreciated.
Come to New Orleans
Its Mardi Gras Time
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one of dual 18" driver cabs did this at 1st.150 lbs of mexican jumping bean. all due to a poorly secured driver. physically check the drivers to ensure that they are held firmly in place by the mounting screws. each of my drivers was about 20 lbs. i re-enforced the bracing and remounted the driver with more secure screws, etc. of course, with small drivers and lightweight boxes sheer lack of mass can always be an issue. just my 2 cents.
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Congrats
I bought a used MMF-5 over the summer. Yours looks nice
However, keeping all settings within spec, my MMF-5 does not like warped records. My other TT, the DJ Technics 1200 M3D with an Ortofon Niteclub S cartridge and needle handle these records without a hitch. Maybe the Goldring is not supposed to have as much pressure on the stylus compared to the NC S. Also not a fan of the stock felt mat; but have not replaced it yet. I did get a thick rubber mat for the1200 from kabusa.com. I can go directly into my pre-pro or use the little red Bellari tube preamp - and can go directly into amp for 2ch listening too. Records on both my TTs sound nice.
Would like to hear about your results and set up.
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DrWho:
Before I temp lost my RS dig SPL meter I could often get my K horns/Acad center above 100dB playing movies or music, not test tones. Only did this for a few minutes at a time; ok up to 15 min of hard rock, depth charges, etc. Amp = tube Mc240. If, as you implied, this might equal over 110 dB via test tone, am I near clipping or risking driver damage?
On the new WF-34s in the bedroom I have been at 100dB a few times. It is only 15ish feet cubed, so I don't llike it too loud for too long. Again same Q re possible driver damage....centers have varied.....
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This is the link to craigsubs rankings of about 1 yr ago. There is also someone from the UK who did similar testing at about the same time; but I forgot the link/source. Both appear free of any commercial bias. Again, these were not tested in Your room, nor with Your room nodes, etc.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=768150
*****Skip 1st message ------ *****Go to message 8 !!!!******
It is copied below:
The scoring summary ...
Here is the scoring summary with the Home Theater score and Music score, respectively shown as (HT-M).
Prices and whether the items are available Internet Direct or from a
store are now included. Keep in mind that ID pricing will usually be
firm, or slightly discounted, where some BM products will see
substantial discounts. BM = Brick and Mortar. ID = Internet Direct.
ID/SI = shipping included.
Elemental Designs A7-900 ($2200 ID/SI): 116 points (63-53)
Epik Conquest ($1599 ID): 112 points (60-52)
SVS PB13-Ultra ($1499 ID): 109 points (57-52)
Epik Castle ($999 ID): 109 points (59-50)
AV123 MFW-15 Duals: 109 points (56-53) (note, duals were tested as duals are offered as a package)
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): 105 points (57-48)
JL Audio Fathom 113 ($3500 BM): 103 points (53-50)
AV123 MFW-15 ($599 ID): 103 points (53-50)
Def Tech Trinity ($3000 BM): 102 points (54-48)
Velodyne DD-18 ($5000 BM): 100 points (50-50)
ACI Maestro ($2400 ID): 97 points (47-50)
eD A5-350 ($715 ID/SI): 96 points (50-46)
JL Audio Fathom 112 ($2600 BM): 95 points (45-50)
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo ($999 ID): 94 points (47-47)
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo ($899 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo ($799 ID): 92 points (45-47)
VMPS VSS ($1650 BM and ID): 92 points (45-47)
Epik Valor ($549 ID): 91 points (44-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo ($699 ID): 91 points (45-46)
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points (47-43)
Axiom EP-500 ($1230 ID/SI): 90 points (43-47)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo ($599 ID): 88 points (42-46)
SVS PB12-Plus/2 ($1299 ID): 87 points (47-40)
SVS PB12-NSD ($599 ID): 86 points (43-43)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo ($499 ID): 86 points (40-46)
Rocket UFW-12 ($999 ID): 85 points (provisional) (35-50)
Elemental Designs A2-300 ($350 ID/SI): 83 points (44-39)
SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40)
Dana Audio 600 ($869 ID): 83 points (36-47)
Rocket X-Sub ($199 ID): 78 points (34-44)
BIC H-100 ($229 eBay): 78 points (40-38)
Rocket Tyke: 60 points (If you care, PM me ...)
Pending subwoofers ...
VMPS VSS Powered sub - Early March, 2008
AV123 BMF ... Not sure of date
Epik Knight ... Not sure of Date
*: The Hsu MBM-12 has been tried with several subwoofers here. We found
it to be a good room solution, for times when the best placement with a
subwoofer for the deep stuff did not necessarily give the best
performance in the 50-80 Hz area. We could not come up with a
consistent way of scoring it with the other subs, including the VTF-3
HO. Instead, it is suggested to be look at as a possible enchancement
to any subwoofer package.
Listening procedures:
All listening us done under blind conditions. The panel of listeners
include several very experienced audiophiles, some of whom also design
and build high end pro audio speakers. The subwoofers were each placed
in the identical room position, and eq'ed to have a fairly flat (3 dB
window) response curve from 18 Hz and up, when the subwoofer was able
to go that "low".
Measuring procedures: All measurements are taken at 2 meters/GP from
the front baffle of a subwoofer. In the case of a ported sub, the
microphone is placed so it is 2 meters from the center of the driver(s)
and port. The posted measured results are max "clean" 20 Hz output and
the average from 20 to 63 Hz. If it seemed like the amp was the
limiting factor in output, "AL" is added to the 20 Hz SPL.
The purpose of this information is to help people to quickly look at a
variety of subwoofers and get a pair of scores, some performance
numbers, and some listening tests describing the characteristics of
each subwoofer. Hopefully, this will provide some assistance when
researching for a subwoofer purchase. There will be times that a lower
rated sub will work better for someone than a higher rated sub. For
example, size, or output, in a lower rated sub may make a difference.
Listening preferences may also make a difference. If slam is valued
over extension, some subs excel at the 30-60 Hz slam. For others,
extension will be the most important issue.
1. Elemental Designs A7-900.
Listening results: This subwoofer has almost no weaknesses. It presents
everything from the deepest pipe organ and movie bass spectaculars to a
hard driving bass guitar with an effortless quality that is the best we
have heard to date. On the WOTW machines emerge scene, there was
nothing but waves of bass that one felt rolling through the room. The
standard Steely Dan 2AN disc was tight, tuneful, and the 18 Hz bass
present in this disc was easily felt, yet the upper bass regions were
agile.
Measured results ... 20 Hz: 113.5 dB AL ... 20-63 Hz average: 118 dB AL
2. Epik Conquest
Listening results: This subwoofer is hard to distinguish from the
A7-900. Once again, pipe organ, the WOTW scene, bass guitar - were all
played effortlessly. It is not quite at powerful, nor as visceral, as
the bigger eD sub, but it is also an easier sub to live with for some
rooms, because it is not quite as large as is the eD.
Measured results ... 20 Hz: 111.5 dB AL ... 20-63 Hz average: 116.5 dB AL.
3a. SVS PB13-Ultra
Listening results: This subwoofer delivers incredible performance from
a moderate sized box. It is almost on par with the larger Conquest and
eD subs in terms of delivering palpable bass, and it is as articulate
as the standard bearer Fathom 113. A great choice when one is looking
for a combination of reasonable WAF and performance.
Measured results ... 20 Hz: 108 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 113.5 dB
3b. Epik Castle
Listening results: Another subwoofer of reasonable size which also
gives a terrific performance. It loses some in articulation to the SVS,
but also has a bit more authority on powerful movie scenes. It is a
solid choice when one wants a large slice of the Conquest/A7-900
performance in a package that is easier to live with.
Measured results ... 20 Hz: 108.5 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 115.5 dB
3c. AV123 MFW-15
Listening results: Pairing two MFW-15's does exactly what one would
expect, it adds a signifigant amount of slam to the areas in which the
single unit excelled. What a pair of MFW-15's does above 20 Hz is what
makes it the 3rd alternative in the $1500 and under category for
excellent performance for the $$$. On music, it is tight, clean and
tuneful. It is the other sub combo the brought the Steely Dan 2AN disc
to life. On movies, one will experience room shaking bass that is
visceral, with the best slam of any subwoofer in its class. It is
overshadowed below 20 Hz by the Castle and Ultra, and it will be up to
the listener to decide which of the 3 "109 pointers" works best in his
system.
4. Creative Sounds DIY Dual SDX-15
Listening results: After carefully adjusting for a proper shelving
curve (kudos to Mark Seaton for the tutorial on the 2496), this
subwoofer gave a credible performance. The only real downside is that
the new Castle from Epik is a superior performer in a smaller package
for less money and no labor required.
Measured results ... 20 Hz: 104 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 115 dB
5a. JL Audio Fathom 113
Listening results: The built in ARO system makes calibration into one's
system a snap. The Fathom allows the well heeled audiophile to get an
unmatched combination of powerful bass and extension with bass quality
that matches the finest monitor speakers, all in a package that will
fit in a room of high quality furniture. The panel of listeners was
shocked that something so compact could deliver such visceral bass.
This is the first subwoofer that delivers on the promise of small size
with true subwoofer performance.
Measured results ... 20 Hz: 102 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 112.5 dB
5b. AV-123 MFW-15.
Listening results: The MFW-15 amazed the panel by largely matching the
PB13 Ultra in all musical areas with the exception of pipe organ. Bass
is deep, tight and powerful, with no overhang at all. The cabinet work
done on this subwoofer is absolultely stellar, especially in its price
range. By stellar, we mean just how inert it is. The cabinet barely
vibrates during the most powerful passages, and this helps the MFW-15
to get its excellent musical rating. It is, as an earlier graph shows,
very linear in its response curve, all the way to 100 Hz. It is in the
area of slam an linearity that allows this subwoofer to match more high
priced units. The Steely Dan disc on this subwoofer is a bass head's
dream, with a lot of the panel requesting to hear it again after the
test. Stanley Clarke was also as crystal clear on the MFW-15 as with
any subwoofer we have had.
Measured results... 20 Hz - 105 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 112 dB
6. Definitive Technology Trinity
Listening results: The Trinity surprised a few listeners by being much
musical than a dual active 14 and quad passive 14 inch drivered sub
"should". Its music/movie weakness was above 60 Hz, and this sub is a
total performer when used with a 50-60 Hz crossover. For home theater,
no sub here delivered a better performance on the machines emerge scene
from WOTW, while Steely Dan's 2AN was almost as good as the Elemental
Design's delivery.
Measured results ... 20 Hz: 109 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 115.5 dB
7. Velodyne DD-18.
Listening results: The big Velodyne was our original standard bearer
here. It is a beast above 25 Hz, and is the ultimate in "plug and
play", in regards to its auto eq. The DD-18 is still worthy of
consideration, but it is eclipsed by many newer offerings.
Measured results ... 20 Hz: 95 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 109 dB
8. ACI Maestro (2nd edition).
Listening results: The ACI shares a lot with the DD-18. At the time we
teste it, it was a spectacular performer. It delivers a solid 25 Hz
floor, with a roll off below that. It does not handle the WOTW scene as
well as a $2400 subwoofer should, but on music it is stellar.
Measured results ... 20 Hz: 95 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 108 dB (note,
these #'s are a lot lower than the original Maestro. At the time of the
original Maestro, I measure @ 1 meter from center of enclosure, or
about 18 inches from driver, and achieved 107 dB).
9. Elemental Designs A5-350
Listening results: The eD surprised a lot of the panel with its ability
to retain excellent music scores. It is another sub that loves the 2AN
disc, and most were impressed when they find out it was a $715
subwoofer. It also handles the WOTW scene with a lot of power and floor
shaking ability. It does not quite match the more expensive subs in
articulation, but for $715, it is a bargain.
Measured results ... 20 Hz: 105 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 111 dB.
10. JL Audio F-112
Listening results: From 25 Hz and up, it is impossible to tell the
difference between it and the Fathom 113. It is an outstanding compact
subwoofer. The general concensus, though, was if one was going to buy a
112, spend the extra $$$ and get a 113.
Measured results ... Not measured. Sorry, somehow this slipped past us.
11. Hsu VTF-3HO (With and Without Turbo)
Listening results: For a subwoofer package of $900 to $1000, the Hsu
VTF-3 HO was, at the time of its release, the standard bearer in its
price range. It is exceptional on music, and delivers slam on HT which
will impress anyone used to what is normally purchased for more money
at a store. The Turbo adds extra heft below the 20 Hz standard for a
true subwoofer, and the Hsu is a solid choice even today for someone
looking for a relatively compact subwoofer.
Measured results : 20 Hz... 101-102 dB (depending on configuration) ... 20-63 Hz Average ... 108 dB
12. Hsu VTF-3.3 (With and without Turbo)
Listening results: The VTF-3.3 is very close overall to the VTF-3 HO.
It is exceptional for its price, in terms of its output and visceral
feel. For music, it is unmatched in its price range - or was, until the
Epik Valor came along. This is a subwoofer that goes beyond its
measured numbers, and for its often quoted sale price of $629, an
exceptional value.
Measured results: 20 Hz: 100-101 dB (depending on configuration) ... 20-63 Hz average ... 107 dB
13. VMPS VSS
Listening results: The VMPS is a very capable subwoofer, with excellent
power to 30 Hz, and adequate power below 30 Hz. It is a good choice for
someone who places a premium on music performance, especially classical
music. Bass is subjectively deep and tight on discs like Two Against
Nature. It does lack in visceral response to many other subwoofers,
including several less costly competitors.
Measured results: TBD
14. Epic Valor
Listening results: The Valor is a subwoofer which will be the answer to
many budget audiophile's dreams. It is an exceptional musical performer
from about 18 Hz and up, with a very agile presentation of bass at all
times. In our smaller basement theater, using a pretty good high end
set up, it amazed listeners in its presentation of the Steely Dan 2AN
disc, and also with its slam for HT. It is not an SPL monster like the
Castle, but in the right room, it is magic.
Measured Results: 20 Hz... 99 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 109 dB
15. SVS PB-12 Ultra
Listening results: A terrific subwoofer considering its 2002 design. It
remained competitive in the $1200 - $1500 arena until 2007, when it was
replaced by the PB13-Ultra. The "old" Ultra was at one time a standard
bearer for performance, and remains a solid mid pack subwoofer today.
Measured results: 20 Hz ... 102 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 109 dB
16. Axiom EP-500
Listening results: The EP-500 was one of the first subwoofers to stress
linearity across its frequency band. What is somewhat ironic is it
sounds more like the baby brother to the new PB-13 Ultra than do
smaller SVS models. It is capable of surprising amounts of bass slam,
and is excetionally articulate for music. Its down side is that is
current price is rather expensive for the performance. Its up side is
it is quite compact, and an excellent choice when space is a
consideration.
Measured results: 20 Hz ... 97 dB ... 20-63 Hz average ... 107 dB
__________________
Owner of Tweak City Audio, where you can say the "F" word on our forum.
Disclosure: I am a customer of AV123 and a friend of Mark Schifter.
link to subwoofer summary
Last edited by craigsub; 04-08-08 at 09:26 AM..
Reason: changed ID to BM in the second paragraph.
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Is a DAC a digital audio convertor? Are you playing music off your hard drive? If so, of what type and quality (bps, etc)?
What hardware and software are you running? Are you running PC directly into your amp or via a pre amp/HT receiver?
Is it part of a completely wired/wireless home system in all rooms?
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No easy or necessarily correct answer. Just my 2 cents.
Since you realistically can't prevue any of these chez vous, consider the following:
try to find craigsub's ?sp, on the avs forums from about a yr ago. He tested and rated tons of subs. I think in your size range the av123 ?sp, ranked highest
look around here, craigslist, etc - and buy something of reasonable quality cheap - and don't turn back. Unless you want to be a pillar of salt
consider your true budget - and stick to it....
happy hunting
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Sorry to be a bit of a newb. But could you explain a bit about what you are trying to do?
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Thank you. Good point.
The Madison dual 18" driver cabs are subs that are to be run from a subw amp. They have input speakon and ?1/4" guitar amp type inputs - but no outputs.
The Behrs have both 1 speakon input and 1 speakon output. In passive mode is the x over bypassed? Are the capacitors used in both modes?
I think most Professional Audio (PA) amps can place xover settings. My sub amps from Parts Express (1000w rack type x 2 - for the madisons and 1 500w plate subw amp - orig bought in case I went DIY) can also do this - lots of knobs to dial in various parameters.I entend to use the 500w and an adcom 555 in bridged mode to run the behrs. I don't think the lack of knobs for phase, etc will be a big deal re the adcom. Just in case, though, anybody know where you can buy separate phase controls etc, like on the back of subw amp?
Why are some sub kits, like at Parts Express sold with sound dampeners-foam and the like, while many speakers, like my k horns, have none?
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This was in part posted in the 2 CH forum, but figured sub Qs might fit in here.The following are Pro Audio (low-mod end) products:
I did notice that the Behringer subs have foam stuffing, a real
xover network and capacitors. They are also designed for bi amp or
passive use by flipping a switch.I do not know if the bi-amping provided via the back plate is active or passive.The Madison dual driver cabs
do not have foam stuffing nor xovers nor capacitors. The madisons only
have the cab, the drivers and a few wires.My Question: How common is it for non powered subs (commercial, DIY or PA) NOT to have stuffing of some type or other, capacitors, etc? Are capacitors needed in passive (non bi amp) mode use?
This is some more explanation, if needed: As for the
comments on the diff 18" driver designs mentioned by others, the DJ I
bought my Behringers (B1800x, turned out not to be current "Pro" version) from actually liked his dual 15"s more. Maybe because
the cabinet size was larger (and I can barely fit the 2 behrs, much
less anything larger). Like my dual 18 cabs, the "port" or opening was
in the middle of his dual 15"s. My buddy with the 15" driver cylinder
sub is yet another approach. His also has a tuned ported vent at the top. Of course, many manuf's have made both
sealed and ported subs.With all of the repairs going on here,
I have temp lost my Rad Shack SPL meter. I have stacked the Behringers
next to one of my dual 18" driver cabs (madisons), without wiping out
my back. Using the same amp, the 2 single driver cab behr's sound a bit
louder than the dual cab mad's. Not sure why. -Maybe diff spkr efficiency, or the effect of the behrs having capacitors-if used in passive mode- And they sound fine.
(Again I do not have any test tones at various frequencies) The behr's
are ported, like the new "pro" versions. BTW-I forgot to carefully
inspect these before purchase, the front grills are opaque due to ?1/8"
foam behond the grill. They do not smell, etc, but the ports-falling
apart-, rust on xover network, and cab interiors look nasty!!!! Oh
well.I just tested them out today with lots of vinyl, sound fine. NB: Be aware of your HT or other receiver settings. In stereo mode on the Outlaw 990, sub bass (via LFE or LFE plus R L) was not not impressive at all. This is how I orig tested the Behrs. (Also forgot to reset the audio modes inmy Oppo DVD player). I forgot to switch to Bypass mode. In Bypass mode the bass roars, but only if R L is enabled, as opposed to LFE.Proper DVD player settings help too
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As for the comments on the diff 18" driver designs mentioned by others, the DJ I bought my behrs from actually liked his dual 15"s more. Maybe because the cabinet size was larger (and I can barely fit the 2 behrs, much less anything larger). Like my dual 18 cabs, the "port" or opening was in the middle of his dual 15"s. My buddy with the 15" driver cylinder sub is yet another approach. Of course, many manuf's have made both sealed and ported subs.
With all of the repairs going on here, I have temp lost my Rad Shack SPL meter. I have stacked the Behringers next to one of my dual 18" driver cabs (madisons), without wiping out my back. Using the same amp, the 2 single driver cab behr's sound a bit louder than the dual cab mad's. Not sure why. And they sound fine. (Again I do not have any test tones at various frequencies) The behr's are ported, like the new "pro" versions. BTW-I forgot to carefully inspect these before purchase, the front grills are opaque due to ?1/8" foam behond the grill. They do not smell, etc, but the ports-falling apart-, rust on xover network, and cab interiors look nasty!!!! Oh well.
I did notice that the behr's have foam stuffing, a real xover network and capacitors. They are also designed for bi amp or passive use by flipping a switch.
The Madison dual driver cabs do not have foam stuffing nor xovers nor capacitors. The madisons only have the cab, the drivers and a few wires.
How common is it for non powered subs (commercial, DIY or PA) NOT to have stuffing of some type or other, capacitors, etc?
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You will get varied advice.
Conservative: stick to like products from the family tree of your mains.
Realistically, in my main room-all heritage stuff x Acad ctr.
A Belle would be nice or even a LaScala on it's side.
But I think the sound is good, and I have vertical limitations below the TV now.
Bedroom-I have tried many rears. Due to construction, I just use real cheap cmptr spkrs.
Works quite well, surprisingly
Plan on using my Heresy IIs for this some day-no rush.Just my 2 cents.
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I am not a musician, just have some friends that are. So, I really do not know that world 1st hand. I thank the posters about their PA comments. As I said, M&K users told me NOT to get their monitors for home use; but said their subs should be ok. I agree there are widely varying levels of quality in the PA, DIY, and consumer product worlds. I paid $500 each for my dual 18" cabs (big boys, 2 x 2 x 4 ft each, and they were new), and $200 each (ok, somewhat high for ?5-10 yr old subs, but a very slow market here in NOLA and high end JBLs of similar box size were $550 each new) for the older version of the Behringer B1800x's which are single driver 18" cabs of about 2-21/2 ft per side. I don't really know how low they go. I have no means to test them. The walls are shaking..... Yes, that could be due to quantity of mid freq, say 30-50 Hz sound, as opposed to any 20 Hz rumble. I also have the RSW 15 in the bedroom which some folks on the Klipsch forums say will not go below 30 Hz. I paid $700ish delivered for the RSW and it was made I think in 2001. The RSW certainly "seems nice", but I have not heard it in a shootout and h*ck for the price, how can you go wrong? For my circumstances, and in my very large main room, ~9000 cu ft, I think I did well while keeping costs low. (BTW, all of the sub amps were about $250 each, 3 new from Parts Express, and 1 used and bridged adcom 555.) Certainly eD did make the top rated sub on Craigsub's AVS forum list about a yr ago, I think it beat out the 12K Gotham/Fathom. But: it is the same size as my big subs, was 3x wieght due to 1st rate bracing and undoubtedly had better drivers, and maybe a better amp. The eD A7-900 sells for $2200 each, roughly 3x my cost. Oh yes, I waited and watched and waited for about 6-12 months before buying my big boys a year ago. I realize many forum members may have the high end or >1K cost subs from HT sub builders. Yet NOT 1 SMALL SUB EVER RATES HIGHER THAN BIG SUBS on any tests that I have ever seen (avs forums, the british equiv, etc), regardless of HT vs music. I metioned my buddies 15" DIY cylinder sub. It is awesome. He says that acc to his spkr building software it is tuned down to 14 Hz. I have heard it a few times and it might be "better" than my big boys. Is the ability to go lower in Hz what separates music vs HT subs? I think the true ability to go low depends on both room size and the size of the cabinet the driver is in. My guess is that unless both are big-huge, forget about European cathedral organ music lows.
I wish I understood the diffs between HT and music use needs. I clearly don't. I simply proceeded on the basis of "bigger is better" and to keep costs down in post Katrina, you gotta' sue the insurance company to get your money New Orleans. I am not sure that I want to pay a lot more for ?? a few more Hz.
All comments appreciated.
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my 2 cents
in my 30 yr old k horns i have had old ss crappy amps: sony and pioneer, when i was broke in the 80s. a good adcom ?525 that i paid $400 for aound 1987-about $800 in todays dollars for a 60w/ch stereo amp. it was great. temp mac tube amp back then too.
post katrina i bought 2535 and 555 adcoms, old and still nice, but for other purposes. an outlaw audio 750 165 x 5, also nice. i now have 2 mc 240s (both bought used and cheap and each with diff tubes), as i intended to biamp my khorns. have not done so yet. h*ll i haven't even redone the x overs yet, and that will be an issue for me-which xover sets to buy in consideration of biamping. i am not sure any of the other postings has addressed thiscan alk / deanG / bob crites / or popbumper chime in on this?another issue: how many amps do you want to deal withfor me: k horn, bi-amped (if i do it), 2 amps, center acad and lascalas rear, another amp - the 750, i will have 4 BIG subs running, 1 amp each. Yup, 7 amps total. realistically, few of us have a chance to sample diff amps. for SET or PP (mac) amps try to get some idea of prices, quality, etc from various forums and audigon, audio circle, etc. Can you DIY? if so, this route might be best/cheapest for good quality. try bottlehead and their forum. to thine own ear be true!!!! if you can't demo anything, well i suggest figuring out your realistic budget. likely whatever you do you will be happy-if you want to be. the tube rollers in the new orleans audio club all seem like wonderful people. but they all have the wanderlust. and there is no cure for that. for ss amps, read lots of reviews and a quality newer used product to save some $$.bon chance -
Preface: High end audio and video gear often works well and delivers a
pleasing product. Many of the items are aesthetically pleasing. For speakers, I
think the Belle Klipsch is almost orgasmically beautiful and IMHO is worth
extra $$ vs a LaScala as it is pretty like furniture, regardless of its
somewhat similar sonic qualities (no flames pls). DIY for the (I suspect) few
of us who can, also provides some alternatives in tough economic times.However, Pro Audio (PA) gear, although designed for a different purpose
(usually louder, smoke filled rooms with lots of alcohol, etc) can be used in
HT applications. PA speakers, especially monitors, are (sometimes) clearly
designed for a far different purpose than 2CH stereo or HT, but might work
quite well (I have no experience here, but other M & K users only recc
their subs not their speakers for home - vs studio - use). In my experience,
especially for subwoofers and tape decks, new and / or "end of life"
(maybe no longer spec for a top band or radio/TV station) works quite well at
home. Caveats: PA gear can look or smell like it came from the swamp and may
have a -10 WAF. PA gear often involves larger items vs HT equivalents. In subs,
most PA stuff has a single or a dual 15" or 18" driver. Guitar cabs
can have 4 x 10" drivers. I think single 10" or 12" subs are
almost unheard of in the PA world.I have 2 used Tascam tape decks; likely from a radio or TV station. I have
never compared them to a high end "reference" audio equivalent.
However, they sound "ok" to me as post Katrina replacements for my
lost 25 yr tape decks, and as used products saved me lots of $$. I admit that I
love records, but most tapes IMHO, can't compete with CDs, etc., and I saw no
reason to spend 2-3x the price on new or used "audiophile quality"
stuff. I have 1 "DJ" and 1 home turntable. The Technics 1200 (DJ) with its cartridge rules on my several warped records (yes, I know stylus weight is adjustable/there are record "flatteners"/weights......but I have kept everything to manuf. spec.).I have 5 subs now. (OK, I know.......hehehe)
I bought a used RSW 15 over the summer. It is my bedroom sub and is great.
It replaced the dual 8s from my Klipsch ProMedia 5.1 computer speaker set up-no
comparison. However, in order to compare the RSW to my PA subs some major room
rearranging, which I am not prepared to do now, would be required.Some manufacturers have separate websites for home and PA use (Denon/Marantz, Sony-sort of, etc). But no comparisons are provided. Has anyone here actually compared HT to PA components or subs? If not, do you know anyone who has? If so, please post
Two Behringer B1800X subs (not newer Pro version) were acquired last
weekend. Still messing with then vs my 2 Madison Amp dual 18 cabs. A fellow
Klipsch Khorn user from Toronto turned me on to the dual 18s about 18 months
ago. BTW, I can clear the flegm from my sinuses and chest very quickly now,
even if not FDA approved. I have a speaker building buddy in the local audio
group. His DIY 15" with 3-4' long 24" wide cylinder sub rules. I
would love to compare it to my dual 18s (mine might loose) and if I can DIY
later this year, it could be my 6th and last sub.Keep in mind my main room (of my 2 room place) is 16 ish x 40 ish x 14 ish -
a big uniroom space (den, dining room, kitchen). And I love my bass. For
roughly 9000 cu ft everyone told me that mult subs were needed - and I think
they were right. On the AVS forums, Craigsub (?spelling) had a list of the top
subs about a year ago. Not 1 PA sub was rated. All of the top subs were really
big to massively large and /or fork-lift items-up to 450 lbs each. I realize that most of us have
no room for these monsters. Even my single 18" Behringers are about 2- 2 1/2 ft per side, 80 pounds, duals are about 2 x 2 x 4 ft, about 125-150 lbs each - that is huge and way to large and heavy for most of us. My guess is that most forum and other typical consumer users have 1 or 2, 10" or 12" single driver furniture grade cabinets, like those sold by Klipsch and many others. These are about 12-18" per side, and around 50 lbs. Why does Klipsch sell at Best Buy - that's where the customers - and the sales are.No offense to Dr. HSU, SVS, Epik, eD, ?AVS, ATI, Outlaw, and of course Pappa
Klipsch, (and whoever I left out): simply stated, a PA 15" sub is 1/3 the
cost of your products. Even with a separate amp (from Parts Express, etc), a PA
system could be at least 1/3 less in cost. A cloth cover to improve WAF is only
a few $$.Is there any reason why more of us don't use PA gear or some DIY?
If this should be posted elsewhere, happy to do so. But please, just
comments and reccs and no flame wars. I love my Klipsch Heritage set up and do
not seek to replace it with PA/DIY stuff. Klipsch support is also first rate -
and Kudos to Fred Klipsch for keeping it that way. But for bigger subs and some
components, maybe other alternatives should be considered.Thanx
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OMG I had a good laugh
Thank you
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Found this thread by accident, but glad I did.
After Horor-cane Katrina I had to replace lots of stuff. Bought about 100 records since then. Almost all used and in fair-great condition. Almost all 12", only a few 45s. Lots of Jazz, mostly tracks laid down from mid 50s Stan Getz, etc, to early 80s. Records may have been pressed as early as the late 50s as best as I can tell. Lots of 70s-80s rock too. Mostly bought at used vinyl stores, flea markets, etc. (SF bay area, LA, and Chicago had great stores, Austin too, as did Berlin flea markets.)
Have gotten lots of advice on other forums and from others in person.
We have a different issue in the HUMID Gulf southern US: are we sort of forced to use sleeves that have a paper surface in contact with the vinyl/plastic record in order to avoid moldy nasties from occurring? We have an audio group in New Orleans (BBATS) and some of the members have told me not to use plastic sleeves due to our climate.
I still have to properly clean the records (yes, I know, that is an all night conversation too). Once done, time to put them in sleeves. I had previously plannned only to put the orig sleeve in the cardbord record cover and to place the actual record next to it. Not even sure I should put both the outer cardboard cover and the sleeved record within a separate poly/plastic/etc cover due to the forementioned issue of humidity and mold. Also in humid climates, and even the AC still leaves our homes humid in the 9 months of summer, will these plastic-type outer sleeeves stick to each other? If the plastic sleeves are ok to use (inner record and/or outer cover), which type is best for the outer as I think 2 or 3 different types are available.
I have not called the companies that popped up under record sleeve google search yet, as I found this thread 1st.
All comments appreciated. Mardi Gras is just 3 weeks away and my liver needs to be prepared !
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I bought a used RSW 15 over the summer. It is my bedroom sub and is great.
Just bought 2 Behringer B1800X subs (not newer Pro version). Still messing with then vs my 2 Madison Amp dual 18 cabs.
So my question is: how do higher end HT subs compare with Pro Audio (PA) subs (and yes I have separate sub amps)? I may not be able to move the RSW 15 back into the main room anytime soon?
Thanx
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The 5 disc DVD changer from Sony goes for $120-140, new.
On ebay a used 300-400 DVD disc changer can go for under $200. I should check Audiogon and Videogon too.
So I guess my budget would be below $200 (unless it has lots of great features, etc, like my Oppo DVD player).
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Hello
I am looking for a
DVD changer, so I don't have to keep changing out my DVDs and CDs. I do
not own any SACDs, etc. Prefer to be a couch potato when possible. Mosly for audio use, but would like at least a descent video capability. I
have seen the Sony 5 disc changer and seen reviews of the Sony and
Pioneer 300-400 disc players-but I think that number is overkill for
me. I guess a Blue Ray player/changer is still too $$$; although mult.
BD drives in a computer slave might work-at a min of $100/drive slot.
Any advice appreciated.
Happy Holidays from New Orleans
In the main room, I currently
have an OPPO 981; Outlaw Audio 990 Rec-no HDMI, only DVI slots; and Sony KDS-60A3000 60" rear proj tv. Will
likely get a PS3 as well, despite lack of 7.1 outputs-and despite new oppo 83 coming out soon- ($150 discount w
new Sony PlayStation Card). Tube amps/K horns. -
USNRET, Michael:
Congrats
Thanx for the link for the Acad mount, can you provide more details? At least I know it went to a Heritage fan. (You are almost as bad as Colterphoto...)
Videoguy, thanx for the shelf link. I have a 60" Sony KDSA300 and the top and rear plastic seems, well, flimsy. So I am afraid to do that given the weight of the Academy.
I am thinking of building a shelf around the tv (supports from side fronts and center rear) or even mounting, hanging the Acad from the ceiling.
My main problem is that I cannot mount it from the brick wall behind the TV as there is a 10 foot plus long picture of the French Quarter there. I am afraid to even touch it too hard while dusting, in case the whole 150 yr old wall falls on me (yeah, yeah, yeah - it's Nawlins, not New York, and things go "boom" and "faw down" as 4 yr olds say.)
I am also trying, unsuccessfully, to leave as much of the painting visible as possible. I only have 1 Academy under the TV with a few inches to spare on a shelf above it. The TV as such, about 18" off the floor, aleady cuts off the painting's bottom. Oh well, ......
Micheal, what did you do in the Navy? My brother retired out a few yrs ago after doing 26 yrs; XO, Reagan White House, etc, Captain. Email me.
Happy Turkey Day, Gobble, Gobble......
Almost time for Pere Noel on the Bayou.....
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I was the second highest bidder
(I think there were 2-3 of us bidding until about 2 minutes left. Then the winner sniped with a few seconds left. I guess I should have bid higher; live and learn. If anyone has a walnut Belle for sale, feel free to email/PM me.
No hard feelings. I hope the winner enjoys it as much as I would have. I still have LaScalas as rears for the Khorns and have Academy centers (2). Perhaps my pre Mardi Gras project will be to put 1 of the Academy's on top of the 60" rear proj TV, along with the one that is below. Not sure how I will brace it; over ?20 lbs? With my big TV the sound does not seem to come from the center of the screen. Hopefully with the 2nd Acad on top, things will balance out.
Future projects: fix the HIIs; new crossovers on Khorns/LaScalas-30 yr old AAs; new crossovers on the HIs-30 yrs old and HIIs-20 yrs old. Maybe some, dare I say it, add'l subs.
Happy Holidays everyone
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Well, OMG, what a series of posts !!! ;0)
) )I have tried unsuccessfully to print this up for safekeeping.
Is there a way to save the entire posting guide as one webpage save DL? Since I have been "living" at the hospital or been away much of the last couple of months, and am still way behind other issues, this may be my post Mardi Gras project. (You gotta have priorities)
GL51, we are truly unworthy.
.....big Bayou BOOYAH, and smile, ......fade to camera left....., ...pan camera.....the levees are still holding, my feet are dry, life is good.......
(
Audioquest "DBS" cables... huh?
in Technical/Restorations
Posted
My 2 cents on audio weirdness:
I have read some, not all of these posts. I use 12 and some 14 g zip cord type speaker wire (lowest cost I could find, multi strand ? 80-300 strands per wire, can't tell if all of the wire spools were blessed as oxygen free copper), usually in 4-8 foot lengths; almost all new since Katrina. To be honest, my 20 yr old pre Katrina stuff looks nasty, is coated/rusted, but sounds fine - I just fingernailed off the gunk and rust from the wire edges, not aesthetic though. And even worse, hand twisted connections between pieces for longer lengths, or used home depot type nickel plated connector type plugs (5 cents each type) etc. Never thought to worry about it. As the audio engineers at Klipsch told me during the pilgr.. "they're just electrons, they don't care...."
In reading other stuff on spkr wire, maybe there is something to impedance matching, etc. Maybe that explains why some use ethernet cable, cat 5 or 6, as spkr wire, with good reported effect. I have seen, but never used anything fancier than zip cord.
Nope, I don't even even clearly separate power cords away. Given the constant repairs here, that turned out to be a real problem. I do the best I can. Eventually I will sep. off the power cables, maybe add a line conditioner (It has to be crappy in the French Quarter. Richard Gray, Power Company fame, is also in the local audio club and I plan to have him and others over by summer), and run nice clean 12g wire that I will likely Caig deoxidize, etc. Maybe it will make a noticable diff. Have also seen postings for rf shielding for the power cord itself. Someone claimed it improved his cable TV signal. I am willing to try that as well; why, it will only cost a few bucks and makes for a nice weekend project.
As for interconnects, I went a bit bonkers: I hand built most of my own. Audioquest 1/1 audio, and 3.1 and 6.1 video cables, all using the ITC 24 plugs. Finding parts has been tough, as not much is for sale at a cheap price. Most bought via Ebay. I should have Caig deox'd the wire tips due to all of finger prints and oils.....oh well, found out about it too late. I did not follow the wire's supposed directionality. Yup, AQ tells you that the electrons should only run in 1 direction. I just plugged them in without regard to that. Have also bought 2-3 sets of the Belkin HT interconnect kits, about $13.00, at Sam's Club. They looked somewhat impressive on the package pictures and I ran out of plugs briefly. I also use cheap a** optical cables from the usual suspects: monoprice, parts express, mcm... My DVI and HDMI cables are a similar hodge podge. I do try to keep all cable / wire lengths as short as possible.
To get rid of hum, I have grounded the TV cable and used cheater plugs on the sub amps. Most everything else uses 2 prong cords.
In general, I have been very patient in shopping for good quality products at low prices. I am willing to try low cost solutions, even if moderately labor intensive. Since I may face another year of repair work putzing around, I do not wish to finalize anything yet. Where I might have to spend big bucks is on power conditioning, as the lines here are 40 plus years old.
Please keep in mind: I work in an X-ray dep't. Power conditioning (or some equiv) and the like, along with huge UPS's are used. If hospital grade stuff like CT scanners, MRI units, etc don't require any other nutty solutions why should we??? (OK, we are a bit nutty too:) Trust me, if GE, Siemens, Philps, etc - the folks that make million dollar machines - thought that these would improve their products, they would do it in a second and charge a fortune for it. They don't.