johnsji

Michael, I've looked into that a bit, understand the principle and have drawn up a sketch as to what it the room would look like and how much space I'd need. So far the wife prefers a conventional shaped room because...ok, I didn't ask her, I caved. The jury seems to be out as to how effective it is, but isn't that the case with anything (The master handbook of acoustics / by F. Alton Everest)? My car may need to be replaced and that will be the end of my project for a while and I'll have to suffer in my little dungeon longer. That may give the Dr. a chance to try a few things in there to make it sound better. Thanks for the suggestion. JJ

Saltyhook, Not to long ago I received an article from DOPE FROM HOPE regards false corners and khorns. I'll attach it for you and hope it helps. JJ

Overkill isn't always bad unless it's your neighbor's dog or cat. I appreciate your willingness to share what worked for you. I'm gathering as much info as I can before I start and I'm glad I received this before any construction/planning began. JJ

Thanks Picky, I stumbled a crossed your web site quite by accident and was thoroughly impressed. Great job. JJ

Thanks Dr., No problem on the follow up. The time gave me some time to study some things and decide that I would rather try to create something new and better instead of investing a lot of time and money trying to make that cube work. I'll get the blueprints and see if I can copy them in a small enough package or get out the pencil and paper and draw what I've got. It is basically a poured wall, concrete basement that is divided in half by a load barring wall. One side has the washer/dryer and my proposed room area. The other will be used for storage and contains the furnace, hot water heater and water meter. I will try to get it all measured and posted in the next couple of days. I bet we are going to have more success with anything we come up with because we won't have to fight with the odd ceiling heights, cubbys, closets or 3' hallways leading to the room's door. And we'll have a bit more volume to work with. The forum members have been trying to help over the last few months tame the mids in the Forte II's and combining all the ideas have helped a lot, however, I'm still sitting only 65" from the speakers (like the old Maxell tape ad). I'm looking forward to getting back...I can't imagine being 9' or more away from the speakers in a properly shaped and treated room. I know I cannot have what I want now but I can make the best of it anyway. It will be a great learning experience and there will be plenty of time for improvement as time goes by. This is a bit off the topic but if you like folk 'type' music, pick up the CD from Amos Lee on Bluenote. While I am normally a rocker, this is a wonderful release that makes so-so systems sound good, and good systems sound great...I can only imagine how good the great systems could sound like. I'll do my homework and get it back to you. JJ

Thank you Michael. The links were helpful and your suggestions appreciated. JJ

I'm usually long winded, but westcott, how did you float your floor? [*-)] JJ

Formica, I do not have a drawing finished yet as I am still trying to get enough info to roll with. I have the house's blueprints but I don't believe they will give you any more information that I can with pencil and paper. The house is a tri-level and the new area is one floor down so the existing space cannot be connected. My system cannot be in one of the much larger common areas because of two problems: the kids want to touch everything and my "shrink" wants me to have an area I can call mine. [] I agree with your comment on gaining very little space over the existing room. [] The existing room (which I have drawings of) has quite a bit of duct work that has been dry walled. The ceiling height is 8' for a portion and then 4 or so feet is the duct work which drops the height down to about 7' and leaves a cubby in upper right corner of the room's long dimension. With the speakers in these true corners bass was really poor. Turning the system around to the shorter wall, my back to the duct work, improved the sound greatly, yet there are not true corners in this position...a bi-level door closet is on the edge of the left speaker. DrWho has offered to help me solve this problem but my wife said take up some of the lowest level of the house and build a room with the corners and flat ceiling you want. So while the room is not a lot larger (give 'em an inch...), the controlled experiment should turn out better. [8-|] I mentioned 2x6 studs along one wall because of the location of the circuit breaker box. Regarding the floor and water damage, I live in a gravel pit, mostly sand but understatnd and appreciate Michael's concern. The only window in this area had a small leak once because the builder forgot to caulk and weatherproof it. We added gutters and after they dug down and out about 4' and corrected the problem everything has been zen. There is no sump pump and the only floor drain is across the room near the hot water heater. I like his comments on leaving the floor cement because would give it a different look than what most people see in listening rooms. I know a couple of artist buddies that could do wonders to what it would look like. I don't have that much equipment so I could always try it that way and go another direction if needed (treatments and such mounted temporarily); I really don't want to lose too much height and agree that adding things will make the room look real small real fast. The speakers could go on the long wall hopefully reducing some of the anticipated reflections. I read about the rule of 38 and if I'm at 10' deep my listening position should be about 4' from the front or back wall (10' x 38%). I appreciate the questions you've asked and the recommendations made. I keep track of all this stuff and just don't take your efforts likely. Thanks again. JJ

I currently have a very small room with my Forte II's and Adcom gear and the sound is not going to be right without a lot of work. DrWho has been more than helpful in finding the reasons behind screaming horns and lack of bass. But, in the long run, it is going to take more work than I want to do to get it to sound acceptable, i.e. my wife doesn't want to put up me. [] The current room is dry wall over poured cement, carpet and unfortunately some oddly placed ductwork that traps the bass. Its dimensions are 9'5" (L) x 8'10" (w) x 7'5' (H). I know...a virtual cube. [:'(] I have an area in the basement I can convert but it will never be a size that will fall within the accepted norms. This is where I am looking for guidance. It will have a cement floor and two poured cement walls. I plan to frame the cement walls so I can affix dry wall, the others will be framed in with 2x4s or 2x6s and the dry walled. I have two main questions to chew on: 1. the "fixed" dimensions are the length, roughly 13' (L) and height which is 8' (H) from floor to rafters. I will loose a bit of each due to treatments: carpet or hardwood, drywall or drop ceiling. The width I can take is about 10' max (internal - wall to wall). I don't want to choose a size that throws the modes off too bad to start with so I'm looking for some suggestions here (compromise). From there I hope I can correct as much as possible with treatments, listener position and speaker placement. [] 2. The cement floor appears to be a blessing or curse depending who you ask or what you read. I wonder if I would benefit from giving up a little, overall room volume to add a platformed floor to increase bass response (shake)? Should I stick carpet or go to hardwood? I'm asking Klipsch folks because you know the speakers and how important the Forte II's passive woofer is to its overall sound success and the posts I've read have yielded many ideas and proven to be very informative. This is a first step as the carpender is in the wings. I've got some ideas on DIY diffusion (thanks DrWho) with masonite panels and bookshelves and I know I'll need to come up with some bass trapping ideas and might as well incorporate them as the room is being constucted. I don't have the funds or equipment to make this a super room but with your help I bet I will fair pretty well. Your help in appreciated. JJ

Duke, Thanks for the advise. Most agree that setup not the speakers or equipment are the problem. Last night I stripped the equipment down to get it back to the condition I last heard it: 1. I removed the Monster banana clips and flex ends from the speaker wire. 2. I noticed the Monster cable (from a roll) that I use as speaker cable is sticky on the ends...it appears there are some problems with the wire as it has tinges of green. Since the cables were way too long for what I needed I hacked off two (2) feet from each end and stripped them back...still sticky. [:^)] The cable is twenty years old. I skipped the fancy ends and went direct to the pre-amp and speaker poles. 3. I changed out the newer cable between my DVD and pre-amp. I'd bought some cheap Acoustic Research cables (at the same time as the speaker ends) to replace the twenty year old ones...now I'm back to one of the twenty year old ones. 4. I left the MIT cable between the pre-amp and amp. 5. Removed the speaker pegs (I use three in a triangular shape). I was on a mission and all was accomplished in twenty minutes. I placed the speakers at the Klipsch 45 degree angle but to get an adequate image I was too close and I was not happy with the midrange. I changed the position from a true 45 to being toed in so they were about 1" and 7" from the back wall and as close to side wall as possible. I can move back into the room and this is my reference point for now. DrWho has kindly provided advice to get me on the correct path. Until I can really identify what I like and don't like, I can't correct my listening experience. [] Maybe his critical hearing suggestion in some way helped manage my expectations. Last night the system did sound much better overall albeit some minor changes were made. I turned the light off, closed my eyes and spent a half hour listening, no experiencing, music again trying to pick out the various instruments and locations. She may not be perfect...but she's back. [8-|] Afterward I spent time watching the new Willie Wonka movie with the kids and was surprised at the sound stage presented throughout the film considering I'm only a two channel guy. I think I'm on my way now and thank all who attempted to help me. I've got a good foundation and a plan to use materials to better treat my room (by the way, Dean's suggestion to use the pillow was a good one) without going overboard. JJ

DrWho, Another good piece of advise and a learning experience also. As you suggest I could be looking for what isn't there instead of what is. I think we've all experienced this by selling the car we loved to buy one we thought we'd love. To answer your question regarding what I like about my system: Clarity Separation Width of sound stage Well rounded sound for different types of music Volume when needed Volume when not needed Already paid for I started disliking the system as soon as I got a dedicated room. Maybe my critical ears started working then, maybe I expected too much. Adding treatments and worrying about the speaker toe-in to a 1/16" may have set me up for failure. In addition, this is a very tiny room to what I was used to...being on top of the speakers could be clouding my judgment. All have recommended playing and tweaking and that is what I'm going to do before seriously thinking or dreaming of any new equipment, cables, etc. If past history tells me anything, if I'm not careful, I could sell off the car I loved again. Thanks Dr.

Thanks Jeff for your 2 cents. I'm glad I'm getting so many different ideas to work with. I've been looking for another receiver or amp/pre-amp combo to play with but most folks I know have the theater-in-a-box type kits and I'm not sure how much quality I can count on for their nominal investment. On the other hand it still would be something different. I tried an old Marantz receiver, I believe it was a 4400, and it drove me out of the room. With any volume the midrange was not only overwhelming, it was like the only frequencies it knew how to produce. In all fairness this thing has set in a box for 15+ years and was used for many before that. Speaker placement appears to a main stickler. I have to be satisfied with the base image before I can proceed. The forum has been very kind to me especially considering my lack of knowledge and modest system. I welcome the help along the way. Thanks All. JJ

Dean, I've seen longer posts from you but you always get your point across. I'm not married to the Adcom, amp or pre-amp, although is was good gear when I bought it and is still pretty decent now. The speakers on the other hand...I can't help it but I'm hooked on the wow factor when people see these Klipsch especially since so many buy the little bitty baby sized boxes. When they hear them it is something else. If the pre-amp is the problem you must know something I don't (that doesn't surprise me). I understand that the pre-amp feeds the amp but ok, give it up; if there is something specific about my pre-amp that is the problem let me know. I don't have a budget now but I can't imagine what a decent replacement would cost (I just don't have enough knowledge to make a logical choice). Maybe I'd have to go used. My wife thinks an MP3 player for $150.00 is a stereo. Technically she is right but I'm looking for a bit more and it may be a hard sell. Suggestions are appreciated. I still like the idea of the networks Dean and I've got your information and like the approach you describe. I'd like to get the best sound I can afford and then make the jump to them. Thank you for your advice. JJ

DrWho, Thanks for all the legwork. I checked out the Yamaha line a bit and they have several units with the features you suggest. I found it interesting that their website discussed the similarities in the big-box store models and those in hi-fi shops. "There are many similarities between these two product lines. The RX-V line and the HTR line are produced in the same Yamaha factory using high quality parts throughout. The RX-V and equivalent HTR models have the same warranty periods, the same manufacturer's suggested retail price, similar features, and similar remote control units. There is a cosmetic difference found on the front panels of these two lines. However, both the RX-V line and the HTR line feature high quality front panel construction. The amplifiers in the HTR and RX-V units are identical but rated differently to comply with the accepted measurement standards of their respective channels of distribution. Both ratings are FTC approved and are designed to handle the dynamics of today's audio and video sources. The RX-V line has the power amplifiers rated from 20-20000 Hz. The HTR line has the power amplifiers rated at 1000 Hz. Both lines can reproduce the full frequency response of 20-20000 Hz." Maybe I'm a sucker but there must be more differences under-the-hood. Usually I am willing to pay a reasonable amount more to buy from a dealer vs. retailer for their upfront expertise and after the sale support. Thanks again for your suggestions and your help. JJ

Tom, Thanks for the advice. I've toyed a bit with moving the speakers to try and get the effect you mention; shifting troublesome waves about room instead of leaving them caught directly behind the speakers. I'm going to remove the pegs to make the shifting around easier and act like a kid in a sandbox. I'm also going to buy a dB meter on the way home from work to measure the frequencies of the room and overall sound pressure. Being a rocker I may be turning up the system up too much for this room considering its dimensions and the distance to the speakers. I've never had the pre-amp turned up over 1/3 in any room...maybe it's just too loud to control without extensive, expensive treatments (which is my fault, not the systems). JJ

DrWho, Thanks for your response. I used to love going into that store and listen to the high quality stuff but when I left I told my 9 year-old son the guy I was talking to didn't make me feel comfortable...I felt like he was working me over. He asked me what I was going to do. I told him I was going to take my money and run. To answer your questions/comments in order: I am running the analog out from the CD player to Pre-Amp (I don't remember it having a digital in on the pre-amp...I'll look again). I've heard Yamaha is good quality gear and I will look around to get some more specific information. Regardless of what I decide on, it sounds like the digital CD link is a must). Any model(s) you suggest? This is a dedicated listening room, albiet small, and I have pretty much free reign with it. I've played a bit with DIY treatments using rigid fiberglass (Manville 814 (>125Hz) but the frequencies effected don't go down to to troublesome bass areas. While the treatments have helped considerably with echo and reflections it looks like I'll need to find another route regarding bass trapping. When you speak of bass traps from floor-to-ceiling do you include the corners the speakers are in? If so, my question is how do I pull the speakers out far enough for the trapping effect without moving them too far from the wall (causing exaggerated mids/highs)? I like the idea of the new networks but have hesitated for the same reasons you bring up and the other reasons mentioned in the initial post. One step at a time is what I have to keep telling myself. If you come up with anything else let me know. Thanks again for your help. JJ

All, I've setup my Forte II's in a small, ok really small, room. I haven't had a chance to set my modest system up in years but now I have this dungeon with a lock on the door and am looking for suggestions to help set it up for more critical listening again. My scenario: Room size: 9'5" x 8'10" x 8' Components: Forte II - 1990 Adcom GFA-535 Poweramp (any truth to web reports that this type of amp brings out flaws in Forte II's, ex. harshness?) Adcom GTP-500 Tuner/Preamp Sony DVP-NS50P/S DVD player (temporary situation) Currently the best overall sound comes from placing the speakers at a 45 in each corner. The midrange is too loud as I get closer to looking down the horn. Pointing the speakers straight ahead also helps the issue but I seem to lose some soundstage, the image is a bit flat. I've treated the room which cleaned the sound up considerably but I'd still like to improve it a bit more. I want to take baby steps...since the babies have been here, it is all I can take. I went to the high end shop I bought the Adcom and Klipsch stuff from and told them my story. They said that the Adcom stuff was bright and I should sell the speakers and buy some Paradigm Studio 60's; at minimum, new speaker wire. Estimating that I could sell the Forte II's for about $ 800.00, I would need about $ 800.00 more to buy his speakers. Wouldn't $ 800.00 go a long way towards choosing a better suited amp for my current speakers if brightness is the issue? I mentioned to the salesman that the DVD player, which is temporary, did not sound as harsh when listening to movies or concert films , i.e. Eagles, Hell freezes over. I was told that inexpensive players are better for films than normal audio. I should at least investigate a stand alone CD player (my Pioneer Elite LaserDisc Player recently went bye-bye). Make any sense? I looked into networks through this forum earlier in the year and reports have been positive. My fears are: breaking something that works to install them and will these changes address the issue as I've expressed it? I don't want to part with these speakers. In the '80's to early '90s I was well versed in all this stereo stuff but by not using it, I've lost it. I need my advise in plain English. If you were in this scenario and cash was an issue, what would be your next move? Please help if you can. JJ

dragonfyr, Much improvement with your suggestions. [<)] I probably have some more tweaking to do but in my case it is more like OCD. The midrange is toned down considerably now. I'm thinking it may be a good idea to measure the sound pressure when I feel they are pronounced, if ever, again. As small as that room is and my proximity to the speakers, I may have the volume up too high anyway damaging my ears...turn it down and all falls in line. I'll probably be writing a different string before the end of the year asking what would be the next logical step towards improving my sound, ex. cables, patches, components. [8-)] The Klipsch forums have been the most educational and welcoming ones I have ever used; you are a great group of folks. [] Thank you for your well thought out suggestions. JJ

Sputnik, Thank you for your prompt response also. I've tried moving them closer together and farther from the back wall and wasn't really happy with what I got. This room is a stickler as it is 3/4 underground with metal studs and standard 5/8 drywall. I don't know how much impact it could have with the room being comprised of two wall types covered with roll insulation and then drywall; half cement and the other half wood. Another rookie mistake was trying to put treaments into the room without being satisfied with the base sound. I had too many variables cooking at once. Today I pulled all the treatments out and want to get a good starting point. I'll follow up with you in the next couple weeks as it will probably take me that long to test the first scenario then yours. Thanks, JJ

Dragonfyr, Thank you for your suggestions. It's been a long day already but I will start playing around in the morning. I'll use familiar "test" music from the likes of Camel, Barry White, Alan Parson's, Joe Jackson, some GRP "brand" DDD stuff I have and rock like Green Day, Eddie Money and say Styx to give me some variety. I may need to employ a test CD and DB meter to help me out but your suggestions give me a path to start from. I'll let you know how it turns out. Thx, JJ

All, I need your help with setting up my Forte II's in a small, ok really small, room. I haven't had a chance to set my modest system up in years because I wanted to protect it from three (3) little ones. Now I have this dungeon with a lock on the door and am looking for suggestions to help set it up for more critical listening again. [] My scenario: Room size: 9'5" x 8'10" x 8' Components: Forte II - 1990 Adcom GFA-535 Poweramp (any truth to web reports that this type of amp brings out flaws in Forte II's, ex. harshness?) Adcom GTP-500 Tuner/Preamp Sony DVP-NS50P/S DVD player (temporary situation) [:$] Currently the speakers are about 5" from the side wall and 8" from the back. I need to tune this a bit and will probably always be tweaking. Toe-in is a real problem. The more there is, the more the midrange just screams at you. I haven't noticed this as much in the past but I've never had such a small room to work with. I've tried a Music Fidelity Tube Filter between the DVD player and pre-amp without a real noticable difference. I've looked over the web for DIY designs on room treaments and other articles on where to place them but I'm not sure I can "trust" their placement because they appear to be based on standard, front-firing speakers not one with the horn design. Looking over the Forte literature it would seem that because of the wide pattern of sound the mid and tweater put out, first reflection would be closer to the speaker than the "sliding the mirror on the wall" test or the mathmatical calculations I've found lead you to believe. On top of that I haven't got any toe-in so the side of the speaker nearest the side wall should hit almost immediately...at least in my confused mind. [8-)] I am on a shoestring budget, one, not two strings, so that is why I'm turning to these forums for help. To improve my listening pleasure I know that I can upgrade absolutely everything, although I really love these speakers, but that is not an option now . I've never tried to "treat" a room but think it is the right starting point before searching for components or cables and such. Any help you can give me on how to try to get a starting point on these first reflections is appreciated. I understand that this starting point is likely to change over time and comparison listening. Once I've got these down I want to work with bass trapping and then start looking at upgrading components and cables to really enjoy listening to music again. Then I need to get the kids off to college so I can get my bigger room back! Thanks JJ

I bought a pair of Forte II's about 13 years ago and still like their sound. I am thinking of adding a sub-woofer to get a bit more of low bass. I listen to a variety of music styles so when shopping I picked the Forte's because I think they reproduce a very good overall sound regardless of the music or movies played. My amp/preamp combination is from Adcom GFA535A & GTP500 and are of the same vintage. Volume is not an issue as my room is small and I have never taken the amp to the point of receiving distortion warnings. I understand my system is dated (putting it kindly) and that Klipsch makes a number of lines, various pricing and sound quality, and was wondering if the Synergy Sub-12 makes sense. And I way out of line to think of connecting this sub with the Forte II's? I'm not into the stereo scene like I used to be and my knowledge is limited. Your objective suggestions are appreciated. JJ