Jeff Matthews

I doubt it, but I would hope that you'd give a nice serious crank and tell us what you honestly think. Maybe you'll like it and want something like it - not necessarily Crown, but similar clean, high power. I'd also hope that a positive review by you might be motivation for some others to check out what IMO they are missing. Seriously, I hope you can get your hands on one and give it a try with a follow-up review.

It'd sure be nice if we all picked up this debate on the "Headroom" thread. That way, we won't have to go back and forth between threads to address the same topic.

You can ask that question, but you should probably also ask the question of why is he/she selling it? Wouldn't that answer be more revealing??? Not necessarily. Ever buy any of your stuff used? I've seen lots of used, low-wattage tube amps for sale. []

LOL, Parrott. But seriously, you need to trash that 40-watter and get you a good 1-watt amp and clip it to death. Then, you'll get some realistic noise.

I will still maintain high power is a huge difference. A guy by the handle of tilmbill wrote the following in the "I Bought Klipschorns" thread. He's right on the money on the sound quality difference. Saw something on Audiogon that I thought would be of interest to this post. A Krell KSA 300 (Thats class A I believe) which means 300wpc 8ohm, 600wpc 4ohm. Doubles down to 1 ohm, for sale $3000, and $6000 new. Post reads " Used on the most efficient speakers...in the world (could be speakers made?)... Klipsch. Now why would some one with money like that do something like buy a 300wpc amp to play through his "Most efficient speakers" Klipsch. Especially when we all know he could have the same sound with a set amp or a HK 65wpc. In all honesty, if you have never heard a Klipsch speaker, any Klipsch speaker, on a quality SS amp or higher powered tube amp, you really do not know what the difference can be. I currently own and have hooked up: RF5, Forte II, Cornwall, Khorn, SB 2.1s, KG 3.5, Heresys, 6.5" out door speakers, on amps like Mc240 (40wpc RCA blackplate 6L6GC's), SX 1250 (160wpc), M80 (260wpc), M65(165wpc), BK ST202 (200wpc), Mark IV (40wpc Mullard XF2 EL 34's), VRDs (60wpc gold lion KT88's), Scott 299D (22wpc?). Want to come by and hear the difference for your self as more watts are added, whether it be SS or Tube. Do you really think there is no difference? Let me tell you in the simplest terms what I hear, " More control over the music". The amp takes control and you know what real music can sound like, tighter, deeper bass...faster. It makes the prior amp sound weak, or dull on bass. More pop and snap to instruments, clearer pick on the guitar strings. Sweet highs that go on forever but do not roll off. Oh yeah, you will know when the notes are rolled off. Don't believe, try it. There is no substitute. As mentioned above, most of the list has been moved around so that all speakers have played through all amps and preamps. As a last testament, and I have no idea his current gear, Ping Smilin. I bet you he has high wattage, very very very expensive gear now. He joined much like you Meagin, but with seemingly endless funds. He bought and upgraded weekly. It would be interesting to know where he has landed. Smilin...feel free to chime in or someone call him to voice his opinion. He has traveled long, far and fast on a journey to musical bliss.. I especially like his observation that if you haven't listened to the Klipsch through a quality, high-powered amp, you don't know what the difference can be. This guy's exactly right.

Tilmbill, you right on the money with your description of sound quality. Alot of these folks refuse to get it and never will. Put your post here on the "Headroom" thread. Your words: "The amp takes control and you know what real music can sound like, tighter, deeper bass...faster. It makes the prior amp sound weak, or dull on bass. More pop and snap to instruments, clearer pick on the guitar strings. Sweet highs that go on forever but do not roll off. Oh yeah, you will know when the notes are rolled off. Don't believe, try it. There is no substitute." Right on! These naysayers just won't get it because words are never enough to them, nor are they even enough to get them to check out what you're saying for themselves. But it's good to know there's a solid handful out there who clearly understand the distinction between what sound quality you get with a serious amp vs. these low-powered amps they proclaim to sound "so sweet."

Now, back to same sane business. You folks who say 20 watts gets you to ear-bleeding dB's. I've seen your math, and that's all fine on paper - assuming I want to re-work the math to make sure it is correct. But I don't, and I'll take your word for it. Now, tell me, if your running 200-watts, where does the excess go? It isn't heat in my case because it definitely goes louder. I would think if I extended your math, the 200 watts goes beyond the rated max SPL of Klipschorns. Maybe not.

Paul, old chap. Nice you're able to amuse yourself. However, I've happily had the same amp for 20 years. So, it's not a "let's get even louder" thing at all. As far as the "distress" comment, re-read everything. No distress on my end. I am very happy. My amp was an excellent choice for me. "The development of my inadequacy." That's cute, Paul. What drove you to that statement, anyway? You know full-well I could play your little game, but it's infantile to do so. And.... yep! If you got it, flaunt it. I got it, baby!

Shawn, I beat you. Read my prior post.

Dean, I will add that if you're running a 20-watt amp at its full 20, you're clipping. Gotta leave some very substantial room. So, that's where all you guys' figures are off. Your figures all assume playing a rated amp at its full open rating. That's a no-no.

Dean, no, I didn't want to imply all 90-watters are the same, but I had a very good Marantz integrated amp/pre-amp. It was an 1180DC. You could probably Google the specs and tell me how to decipher them and how crappy it was, but seriously, it was a very good amp. In the end, guys, I guess I just listen at higher outputs than you, and I need the amp that lets me do it. We may be talking about entirely the same thing, with the only difference being what outputs we want. However, I feel gratified to some degree in that this "theory" started out being debunked, but it now appears people are finally buying it as the science it is. A big question would be where, typically, on your volume knob will you begin to start losing the dynamics? I've seen that it often appears around just over half-way up to around 2/3's where amps begin to suffer.

DeanG, I don't think in terms of dB when I listen to music and never have. I wouldn't know if I'm at 80, 100, 110, 120, nor have I ever bothered to care. My listening habits are to play at what volume I'm in the mood for. And when I'm in the mood to turn it up loud, I've definitely, most positively, absolutely, hands down, seen a difference between night and day between my long-gone 90-watt Marantz and my 325 watt Crown. The difference is smoother listening with greater dynamics. Whatever dB that is does not matter to me.

Shawn, here's a quote from your article: "What do I need a bigger amplifier for? Mine already plays loud enough to hurt my ears!" Of course, he pointed out that a big enough amplifier will play loudly without hurting your ears." That's my point, too! I'll add, since your article is rather brief, that a big enough amplifier will play at even higher volumes and "hurt" your ears less than a lower-powered amp.

And folks, if you'd bother to read and learn, you'd see that the theory does not only apply at ridiculously high outputs. A 150 watt boom through your woofer is not exactly ear-splitting. If you cranked your 60-watter, you'd lose out on those peaks. If you cranked your 40-watter, you'd also lose out on similarly-higher peaks. You lose dynamics without remotely realizing that with more power, it would not necessarily sound "louder," it would sound more dynamic and powerful. That's okay, though, guys. Just keep on thinking you get all the "loud" you want out of 40-watts. I'm sure you do. When you finally get a taste of "power" versus "loud," you'll understand. But as long as you equate "power" with "loud," you'll be "satisfied" that you just don't need any "louder."

Precisely, Max! That 45-watts was "deafeningly" loud because you pushed it hard, and it began to sound like crap. Read the article.

There's my "10-minute debunker." I knew it'd only take 10 minutes. I'll bet someone's 60 watt amp sounds "louder" than my 325-watt amp. Mine will sound more powerful. Read the article. That's what I said a long time ago before I even saw the article.

This same article was expanded upon a little by the author in the following link where the following statements were made at the end: http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/109459.html Here's the quote if you don't want to go directly to the link: Moreover, what many of us don't realize until we hear it, is that clean undistorted loud sound often does not sound that "loud." The key here is that in most of our home listening, there are small amounts of distortion caused by a lack of dynamic headroom. It's the distortion that makes it sound "loud" in a domestic setting. To remove those distortions and increase dynamic headroom relates to even more power. We've become accustomed to accepting some distortion with our reproduced music, because all amplifier's distortion ratings gradually increase as they approach their output limits or slightly clip the audio signals. When that happens, we turn down the volume because distortion starts to intrude on our listening pleasure, and it sounds "too loud." The lesson in this is that you can never have too much power, and that big amplifiers rarely damage speakers. Little amplifiers driven into clipping burn out speakers. In the scheme of high fidelity, that last barrier to realism is having enough power and being able to approximate real-life loudness levels. (The emphasis in bold is the author's emphasis.) Hmmmmmm. Now, what was I saying before? Wasn't it that without enough power, when you crank, the music gets rackety? I think it was. I also think I recall saying that if you had a high-powered amp, you could crank more power, and it would not sound as "loud." Verrrrrry interesting!

Here's a link, naysayers: http://www.axiomaudio.com/archives/dynamicheadroom.html So, now tell me you don't have a degradation in sound quality as you crank the hell out of lower-powered amps. Yes, you do. EDIT: This thread full of naysayers' comments goes to show what happens when you discuss the science that has been known and studied for a few generations, and somebody tries to reason it out in 10-minutes without ever having taken the time to understand it AND TEST IT.

Well, it looks like overnight we shifted with a heavier emphasis on playing WebMD. Who cares about whether you hurt your ears. Who cares about whether you can hurt your ears even if you don't feel pain? This was certainly not about that. It was about amps and headroom. So, finally when somebody seems to realize what we are saying about high-powered amps makes sense, they say "Yeah, but you'll hurt your ears." Okay, fine. What I think is funny is that there are still some who haven't come to grips that dynamics is lost as you begin to top out an amp's volume. They think the quality of music is all the same - all the way through the dial.

Last post for tonight, meagain, but I want to close with saying, try my suggestion. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. Then, you can go onto other tweaks. I just feel very confident, having seen the difference for 20 years in all sorts of rooms, that I'm right. Try it, and tell me I'm wrong if I am. I can live with that, and you can rest-assured that I will not try to defend my position. I certainly would have no room for argument if you tried it and said it didn't make a serious difference. What would you expect then? For me to say, it sounds great and you don't know it? Trust me, I'm not that pig-headed.

Another thing, Meagain. It is a little incomplete on your part to say you know your system sounds as good as it will with a high powered, clean amp. How are you capable of saying, despite those musically-trained ears, that A sounds as good a B, when you've never heard B? I'd bet that B will train those ears a little further. You're the one asking about the difference, so clearly, you have not heard the difference. Yet, you insist, with skepticism, that you fear there will be no difference. On the other hand, I've heard the difference. No, not in your house, next to your fireplace, bla...bla...bla... But I'm saying I've heard the difference in all sorts of rooms, and in every room, there's a huge difference. Now, if you're not inclined to hear the difference, you might as well stop asking or commenting about it and satisfy yourself that "there is none and that's they way it is." Or.... you can see for yourself. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Pure and simple. Maybe you can arrange to test my theory by having someone bring over one of those high-powered amps. Then, you'll only be out a little time. Reminds me a little of when, many years ago, I was a locksmith. I went to re-key an upstairs condo and could not get in the door. I radioed dispatch and was asked if there was a back door. I had the whole layout pictured in my head so well, I just KNEW there was no back door. I told them "no," and tried all sorts of advice, none of which worked. I finally wimped out and called for back-up help. The guys get there, struggle with me a little, and then, one walks off while the other guy and I keep trying. Next thing I see is the front door open. The guy inside, being a little upset, asks me to follow him - whereupon he showed me the back door that he entered with almost no real effort. How embarrased I was - to say the least. Moral of the story, check out the other avenues as you are told before ruling out possibilities. I gave you a possibility - which I think is a rather strong one. Remain skeptical if you wish. But I would not count on those musically-trained ears to tell you there will be no difference from something you've never heard before. You simply have no frame of reference.

Jeff - You indeed said most emphatically on the other thread that because my amp was 65 wpc w/a peak of 85, that when I crank it REALY loud - I'm hearing a loss of dynamics and everything will even out and become muddled. That it sounds crappy loud. That the louder I crank it, the lousier it sounds. Period. Wow - You said it here above again. Now you are saying that I'm just not hearing it. How do you know what I can hear or not? How the heck do you know what's happening in my listening room without being here? You are honestly telling me (and beyond assuming) that I (who is mega anal & picky) and my husband who is a musician cannot TELL we are listening to crap and losing all kinds of stuff (lack of 'dynamics', etc.?). But most importantly, even if we didn't - You don't KNOW this because you're not here. You are stating a hypothetical as a fact. There is nothing muddled on high volumes. There is no lack of dynamics at high volumes. You are not here. What my issues are with my new khorn purchase span across the board. The issues are there at soft volumes and when louder, they are just - Louder. You are merely speculating & assuming at this point. Trust me, I'm going to be hauling in every bit of testing/analyzing equipment, amps, etc. that I can get my hands on. I contend that if there's anything wrong with my amp - it would be quality issues at all volumes. Not mere lack of mega WPC causing the issues. If it sounded pristine at mega volumes - would I crank it higher than a certain level? No. Can the speakers go louder? Probably. But that doesn't mean I missing out on anything. I didn't buy these because they can go loud (tho a bonus). Nor did I buy them as a PA to toss sound across a football field. I bought them because they have a rep of being a good quality speak at ANY volume. And that's why I invested the cash in them. Well, I'm telling you that at loud volumes - and I mean loud - on your amp, you are hearing loss of dynamics but do not know you are hearing it. That's the best I can say, and I think there is nothing unclear or self-contradicting at all about that statement. But it was you who, even before you bought the speakers, said you wanted something that would crank the house down, or words of the nature. I assume you meant ..... and be dynamic, too. If you want to now qualify and change your preferences..... well, good enough. I know.... I know..... You are a good listener, and H is a musician with a trained ear. I've heard that quite a bit. Try the amp.

Excellente! Most Gracious One! Looking forward to it. I'll post my candid reviews as promised. Hopefully, they will be soooo much better, and I will have learned how I was missing out. Let's see.....

Meagain, you misstated my advice a little, so I want to clear that up. I did not say you need a higher powered amp to sound good even though you don't hear muddled characteristics of the sound as you crank it with your existing amp. I said, even though you don't think you hear a muddled quality, you do. You just don't know what the difference is. You think it sounds great and clear, but with a higher powered amp (of course a clean one), it will sound sooooo much better and less muddled. Then, you'll know the difference. Otherwise, until then, you'll never know. That's not an insult or anything. It just means you haven't heard what your great speakers can do -------- yet. Wait and see..... because I'm sure you'll give it a good try at some point not far down the road. Then, you'll say "Wow! Now, I know EXACTLY what Jeff was saying."

Max, not gibberish. We measure that quality because we paid for it. If you don't need that much, you over-bought - pure and simple. And, no the loud volumes will not damage your hearing because it is not rackety. When your ears can still decipher the code, it just sounds good. But I agree you can go too loud such that damage can be done - if you want. But I will assure you alot of the pain you experience at lower power threshholds is the racket and jumble of all the instruments not playing at their proper proportional loudness. This is racket, sounds like crap, gives you a headache since you can't decipher it easily, and makes you want to turn it down. You are totally missing the top 1/2 of what Klipsch is capable of. ... And I mean the top - clean - 1/2, when you power them with 100 watt amps or less. Just chalk it up to we have different music preferences, and you over-paid to satisfy yours. Or you got a great deal for way more than you need. Either way, if you don't want it, my point is not meant for you. If, on the other hand, you want to know how much higher these speakers can go, then, my point should be good avice.