SET12

Thanks Marvel, I just showed her your response and she was all smiles! SET12

Daddy Dee, Is correct with his asessment and to me and friends of mine. For the last few yrs I have been using Acoustic Research interconnets after reading about them in Stereophile magazine embarrassing some rather very expensive 500$ interconects the AR's are of just a 30$ retail cost I moved up to the Pro Series and now I'm looking to move up to their Referance which just have a 90$ list price they can be had for 45$ for a 6ft pair I own a 400$ pair of Audio Quest and various DIY interconnects made of silver. If you ask whats the finest cable I ever heard I'm going to tell you FMS a one meter pair retail for 1200$ they are the most profound interconnect I have ever heard worth every penny as the designer is one of the founding fathers of Audio Quest and a no wonder I was floored. My friend could not live with out these and asked if I'd varify what he heard and I did. I use SET amps and as you know everything is relavent with them including interconnect performance and I have high demands from them! The AR's deliever! They are good right out of the package but even better with a 100 hrs on them. They simply are one of the best low priced interconnects that I have ever used. Monster is capable though to but I haven't auditioned any in yrs. Cables are really system dependent and remember you can buy used cable for pennys on the dollar I bought used speaker cables that retailed for nearly 1500$ for my outboard crossover project all for less that 150$ so look around! SET12

I don't know if everybody does but that's how I like it. Although I don't neccessarily think the SET vs PP has to be ignored just because many here have beat it into the ground. New people come to the forum all the time. This might be their first go around on the topic. If some are tired of discussing it, well, find another thread to read. Hey Thanks Scott, And Parrot. Yes its my first time on the topic! I'm really new to forums in general and my girl friend is having a hard time with the time I spend as well, But of course there are worst things one could do.

Thank you Dr. Who, Drop me a line and I will PM you with directions I am just off of hwy 41 very easy to get to. I will PM you as well as to whats different with my designs as well.

You have mentioned that your own design is different than most of the other SET amps out there. Clearly the vast majority of praiseful posts on SET amps in this Forum's history are about the "lean and whimpy" designs, however. If we assume that your design is superior, I don't think the "lean and whimpy" designs deserve to be grouped with yours. Have you indeed heard a lot of "lean and whimpy" SET amps or are you basing that opinion on analysis of their circuits? During my last audition of SET at AudioKarmaFest06, there were two examples by the same manufacturer. The 15W one seemed pretty decent and was surely not the worst thing at the show. The flea-powered one was another matter. When we played the Great Gate of Kiev from Pictures at an Exhibition (Mussorgsky/Ravel), the amp fell on its face. It totally ran out of steam and could not manage to make the dynamic passages any louder. What should have been up, say, 15dB, stayed at the same level. Think of a low-powered car full of passengers trying to gain speed when it is halfway up a steep hill. The interesting thing to me was that another guy in the room at the same time, who personally owned the low-watt version, was in total denial about what we had just witnessed with our ears, and was going on about the magic blah blah blah BS of his low-powered amp. Thank you Parrot! For the thought of possibility of a superior design. I know what you mean here I attended a Chicago Audio Society Meeting some 15 yrs ago when Dennis Had gave a talk about his company and its products of which he brought 300B amps and his 211 Single-Ended Monoblocks when the 300B's where playing it was no contest the 211 was the giant! By a huge margine. I will try and pick up that CD! I have heard a number of SETs many 300B's and a few 2A3's some EL34 single-ended. I have conducted experiments with various power supply topologies biasing topologies and the like. So I can just look at a schematic and know what to expect most single-ended is classical in design not that classical approachs can be bad they need modern thinking like Herb Riecharts 300B Flesh And Blood 300B amp! I think I get more though. SET12 I look forward to trying to attend Audio Karma Fest 07,

That .... is a Very Poor Example the DC 300 was never meant to be a home stereo amplifier, not to mention a 30 year old design perhaps you should compare a Crown K, or Studio Reference Duke I think its about the same age as my Citation I may be wrong on its exact model # but its not like the model that was out some 30 yrs ago! about 15 yrs old 150 watts/channel there are many people that have use a DC 300 it was popular when I bought a phase 400 and the Crown was several hundred more$ Never the less duke it is SS and not great sounding I can't comment on the other Crowns do you have experiance with Classe amps or even Krell?

I buy that! But SET's or PP tube can have solid state like bass, And if a SET does, thats a real plus especially at 10 watts that I have been complemented on numerous times by visitors. A bad SET design can sound lean and whimpy by design. SET12, Can you elaborate a bit on your set design? I've heard and owned a number of SET amps (Wrights and Welbornes mainly), but have never heard SET bass sound like SS bass. Not that it was bad bass; what was there was quite good. It just wasn't all there. Thank you for asking! I will PM you on it, You are just four hours away from me as is Dr. Who who I invited to hear my amps but he never replied he either didn't see my invite or maybe he thinks that its impossible that a SET could even remotely compete with SS I can only offer you the chance to hear one and one that can still go even further than it has even though people are startled already by it. SET12

I like both no doubt! There sure are those that don't though! SET12

I buy that! But SET's or PP tube can have solid state like bass, And if a SET does, thats a real plus especially at 10 watts that I have been complemented on numerous times by visitors. A bad SET design can sound lean and whimpy by design.

Thanks for looking! Theirs some great people there with yrs of experiance1 SET12

Warmth may be a relative term. With SS, would the amps be subtracting or adding something to gain warmth? Or does neutrality = warmth in this case. . I don't equate this quality at all that way I will say great amps have a degree of it some might say that their should be a balance niether to much or to little I would rather error on to much then not enough as I couldn't listen to a thin amp and be involved with the music! I have a friend with a Crown DC300 and an Citation 24 amp the Crown came across to him as very univiting thin especially in the mids the Citation on the other hand is warmer fuller body and very inviting much like a Classe power amp that I once did a comparison with a company that does build great sounding SS equipment I might add I couldn't tell the Citation or the Classe apart from one another they were that close and very nice! And the Crown sits in his closet. SET12

I can see that and thats ok if thats what everybody wants! Thanks for posting!

Does anybody live in WI or near it so I might listen to some of these popular componets like these? SET12

Coda, More often it's warmth! It doesn't mean you have to give up anything!

Well put! DeanG Tubes no matter PP or SET can do the job it maybe harder for a SET design to generate the dynamics but it can be done I have and others besides my own have done so. The level of which SET satisfaction does is ones own taste with SET's its often other things that are more important to the SET owners agenda and of course PP is not immune from poor dynamics either. SET12

The reason I ask, friends have Scott's and they point out the less tubes the better, maybe better isn't a good choice of words, less tubes is less trouble,I realize it is a general statement, but I don't grasp 2 gain stages, I don't know what you mean.....one unit is 11 tubes, and the other is 7 or 8 tubes, and they point out the one with less is more desirable, is that a better way to describe it? Sorry OB! Always feel free to ask me any question even PM me if you like! And I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I'll do my best to put it in terms you can understand! Gain stages! A tube amp needs voltage gain! Some amps require more than others so they use these in series with one another which multiply their gain and some of it may be used for feedback. The problem is the more that is in series the more the original signal is affected the point is that they are in series and there can be losses to this but not necessarily some of the tubes can be used for a phase inverter necessary for push pull operation and often there is a gain stage before and after it then the final output gain stage this is typical of a Williamson PP amp which would involve 4 tubes for one channel two of the tubes would be small like a pair of 6SN7's they have two individual triodes in each tube A SET amp needs no Phase Inverter and the total amplification can be done with two tubes of course there are rectifier tubes many of us find desireable for their sound quality these change the AC high voltage into DC high voltage that the tube operates on! The AC signal or music rides on top of the DC but only the small AC signal is applied to your speakers through the use of the amps stepdown transformer taps. When you take a typical modern surround sound reciever there is much in the signal path including all the switchs and all the wire etc. the preamp the surround processor and the power amp section! You coul be easily listening to 10 gainstages in your surround sound amp or any other SS componet I don't even have as much as a switch in the way my signal path within my amp is inchs not feet as in some I use three tubes per mono block very simple and very informative! SET12

Thats aways! Stop in and take a look at the NEWAS site I'm known as SET there as well. SET12

You have alot of choices with tube gear! And with the Klipsch efficiency even more choices I myself use no preamp just CD direct which easy beat out my 1200$ FET by a wide margine I am very pro source direct I even run my DVD that way just a switch of cables, Think of the funds you could spend on the player even it is a universal one, You might think used as well! this is the lowest risk as you can resale if your not happy! Tube gear often has a high input impedance so source direct is very easy as for amplification I have heard the Krell you mentioned and like it but I prefer tubes only with Klipschs others on the forum have no issues using either or but SS is to hard and and uniforming to my ears with Klipsch's IMO of all tube amps all my personal friends use SET's with Klipschs but you will find it Highly Debuted on this forum as well. SET12 rsp1068 where are you in Wisconsin?

Ob, Thats a yes and no answer it largely depends on the design! I haven't heard a 8B myself but I have friends who have! And I can say they were mezmorized by it though! Myself I have just 2 gain stages and enjoy an extreamly transperant window into the music! SET12

Notes of an mature advanced listener no doubt in my mind! As far diode rectifacation I agree even Hex Freds could not compete with a GZ37 rectifier tube!

Such as?

Hardly, I don't think it has to be that broad! And I don't care what anybody uses or does! Its what makes them happy! I can discuss any subject! Yes I have opinions and thats just what they are! As well as you do! What prompted me is Amy's response!

Amy, Im glad you stepped in! And maybe as you can see the subject has caused some friction among people and a lot of debut some very harsh and some very good and obviously there are people with commercial interest as well. Im relatively new to your forum but I am not certainly new to Klipsch as I have been an Audiophile for nearly 35yrs and in the last ten or so have taken an interest in SET amplification and because of it I needed an efficient loudspeaker a pair of Fortes belonged to one of my parents and I knew they were highly efficient so I borrowed them and discovered a product that was a real sleeper and with a few modifications was a real giant in its own right! I use Klipsch only because they bring out the qualities of sound that I want to hear from tube amplifiers! I have no interest in seriously listening to Klipsch products with solid state and most of my friends some of which have spent thousands of dollars on your product do not recommend to use solid state with Klipschs either! Im not alone in this opinion! And Im sure there are many Klipsch forum members that feel the same way! Also there are plenty of members that feel that SS is the only way to go as well! And some as strongly as others and I do about tubes and that Debut will never just simply go away! I realize that Klipsch is more mainstream consumer orientated today which I think it has to in order to survive! My interest in Klipsch and many others lies in the Heritage Series mostly because of the valve era where Klipsch had a strong presence. The Klipsch Forum, Its nice that there is a 2-channel forum but there are camps within the forum as well! Such as Solid State, Tubes Push-Pull, SET and many DIYers such as myself. It would seem that for less rhetoric Klipsch might consider some new categories of interest such as these sites have! http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php? http://www.audioasylum.com/index.html With your other categories such as home theater and many others I rarely visit, 2-channel is what I prefer even for home theater use and that is a Debut all by itself! So I ask can something be done here? Of course I also ask what do other Forum Members think as well? Just one opinion! SET12

Well people since this thread is about SET vs. old SS here is my fellow NEWAS member Forch's take on a vintage Mac vs. his 3 watt 2A3 Tulip SET equiped with Sophia 300B's that are designed to run with a 2A3 filament voltage. forch NEWAS Exhalted GURU **** I love YaBB 1G - SP1! View Profile Email Instant Message Gender: male Posts: 354 Re: August "Round Robin" Meeting « Reply #68 on: Today at 06:49:32 » Quote Quote Modify Modify SS vs. SET: Replaced the Tulip with the Mac MC2105 for a comparison. Mac performed much better than I had expected, with excellent treble (I had a smile on my face), imaging, and of course more meaty impact from the mid-bass on down. I tried all output taps (4, 8, and 16 ohm) from the autoformer and noticed about the same degree of changes I usually hear from my Tulip - more or less emphasis in certain areas, a slight gain change, but nothing to suggest one setting is better than another, just different flavorings which you can select based on your taste and system synergies. I used my Mapleshade cables to connect the Druids due to the fact that the Mac has barrier strip outputs. I also swapped in and out the Zu and Acoustic Zen interconnects. The listening was done with my Cary SLP98 preamp, so tubes were always in the signal path. The main difference that set apart the Tulip from the Mac was in the midrange - the area of male voices, saxes, gutsy organ and guitar riffs and the like. (As a side bar, I have not heard Rebecca Pidgeon sound as good with any other amp, but her voice is higher is in a higher frequency range that I am describing here.) The Mac tended to homogenize mids into the rest of the sound stage and did not make it as dimensional. It tended to sound like the edges of the instruments and voices were airbrushed into the rest of the soundfield rather than standing out in bold relief and taking a defined acoustic "shape" that I am accustomed to. I needed time to pick this airbrushing effect out. I think anyone who has not previously heard tubes would be very happy with the Mac because it does nothing wrong, but once you zero in your ears to this airbrushed effect, you loose some enthusiasm (mind) and emotion (soul) in the course of listening because you know you are missing an important ingredient of what makes music believable and real. Power really never entered the equation here - making it louder did not change the intrinsic character - it just made what was all ready there more apparent. Visually, when you airbrush something, bringing the picture closer to your eyes you begin to notice that it is too good - lost are the small innate (and natural "imperfections") that make each instrument and voice alive and unique. For some Klipsch owners using these types of amps, it probably makes it easier on the eyes (and ears). Using an analogy, fashion models look great when all made up and appear on the front cover of magazines or in advertisements, but remove their make-up or photograph them au naturale in the bright sun and you wonder if they are the same person. Take Kate Moss for example and you have an idea what I am getting at. I want the real woman, including the warts and blemishes - give me the whole shebang! You notice that I am not knocking the Mac, only telling you what I hear and what I like. The Mac is a good '70's amp and I would believe on par or better that the Pioneer and Yamaha receivers of that era that many in the Klipsch forum use. I can see their point in using these - ease of use, "retro-cool" (I'm part of the club: I own Marantz 2235B and 1060 vintage components) and plenty of power reserve for the hammer effect. I'd really like to hear the latest SS amps that are being raved about in the latest issue of Absolute Sound: Halcro, MBL, Classe' etc. to really see where the state of the art is at today. That would be a much better comparison, versus the vintage components most folks own (and can typically afford). I'd put my Tulip against those in a heartbeat - that's where the real challenge lies. Forch having fun...... « Last Edit: Today at 06:58:49 by forch » IP Logged

Vondy, Go for it! It will inspire and give you confidence to do an even bigger project! My daughter wants to build an amp! This looks like a perfect place to start! For tools and safe practices try this site. www.tubelabe.com It will put a smile on your face!