SET12

Joe, You asked a very legitimate question! And as Dave has pointed out its not size, weight or power. You will find the topic very highly debuted on this forum. You will also find that many use Vacuum tubes as well which typically always have higher distortion but for most tube lovers its typically not really to relevent! it might be interesting to note that I once read that 60% of the high-end market is tube gear! As far as "minimalist" that comes in many forms. Take for example your reciever, it has many switchs and much wire not to mention an easy 1/2 dozen or more gainstages in series with one another all can degrade the signal. I am about as "minimalist" as one can get! I use no preamp just a CD direct into my power amp with volume level controled by my variable out on my player the power amp has just 2 gainstages and the technology goes back to the 1930's producing just 10 watts but using its power before audiable clipping it can easyly reckon with most any 100 watt AV or two-channel integrated amplifiers watt for watt and yes I can play loud! as it is my feeling along with others here that power is corruption! Seperates help but not always and their are many integrateds, and seperates that are very,very good. It depends on your taste and buget. SET12

WPM, There are many good kits! I am familiar with the Forte F44, Its moving coil performance is very good but it can be overloaded easyly with a .9mv MC cartridge it will cut out completely on high peaking material, Its MM section is subjectively poor in contrast to its MC performance This one of the least expensive tube phono stages that I found it has a lot of support and can be up graded further later on. It sells for 279$ www.bottlehead.com/et/adobespc/Seduction/seductio You can also get step-up transformers in kits such as these Lundahls I have a friend using these with with an RCA phono stage scratch built using 6SL7's and getting excellent results. http://www.kandkaudio.com/phonostage.html Using simple hand tools it is possible a tube phono stage right out of the RCA tube manual for under a 100$ using box's from Radio Shack and some terminal strips and jacks from them and a 30$ power transformer from tubesandmore along with some tube sockets. I know this because I've done such a project I later extensively redesigned it I can post some photos of it if your really interested in trying to put one together it is alot of fun! I once built one for 38$ from parts on hand! For a tad more than a hundred one can match the Tercel easyly in a DIY project. There is a beauty of kits in that it is all in front of you and you can have it together in a few hrs. My last project cost me a 1000$ in parts and was completely designed by myself from scratch so there is a very wide range of performance but if you stay with tubes they are nice for their warmth especially with MM SET12

The crossover design is stock, I had no issues with the basic design subjectively. What I did is to upgrade the parts quality the inductors are 8ga I was told the worlds largest comerically offered and are no longer be offered. The caps are matched Hovlands with very small MIT polystyrenes matched. I would not recommend Hovlands they took forever to sweeten up and bloom there are alot of very high quality parts out there thatI would like to hear so these crossovers allow interchanging of componets very fast. Your looking at just one crossover for one speaker each crossover has an input from the amp and a woofer, mid, and tweeter output binding posts the speaker has 3 pairs of post also. I have them on amp stands or I have had them sitting on top of the Forte's as they are the same rectangular dimensions as the Forte but what I found was better performance having the componets away from any vibration enhances their performance in my system and this makes sense due to most componets being subject to microphonics. If I want, I am set up to do Tri-Amping but I don't have the desire to because of the superb performance of my SET amps with these crossovers although if I where to Tri-Amp I would build the crossovers in the amps between the gainstages for superior performance over an outboard electronic crossover I prefer as few gainstages as possible for sheer transparency and dynamics I also use no preamp this of course doesn't work for everyone but I think I understand why it works so well for me. Replacing the caps is a very worth while upgrade! And highly recommended you might look at Deans K-Stacks for a nice improvement in performance.

Copperwire, Speaking of copper! My Forte's are a little enhanced, For the price of a couple of CD's you could improve your Forte's just by replacing their caps for a nice performance up grade when you have a chance. Here's a picture of my outboard crossovers which propel them out of the ballpark for me! What you see is the stock Forte network and a CD for scale next to my networks the speaker is also rewired with Audio Quest Midnight, and Audio Quest Idigo internally with each driver having its own cable. Audio Quest Clear runs to the networks from my monoblocks. SET12

Duke, Thanks for the compliment and pardon me for answering a question that was for you! But I knew that I would be making a few comments on this anyway and decided that I could comment from both sides of the fence and I glad you found some satisfaction from it! SET12

Let me fill you in Copperwire, SET stands for Single-Ended-Tube-Amplifier most amps are of the Push-Pull variety. Typically they are tube amps, But there are Solid State Single-Ended as well such as the Pass amplifiers and others, You'll find these amps highly debated on this forum because of their low power and the assumption that all SET amps are weak and have no grunt in the bass and that maybe true of many SET designs but not all! SET amps are typically simpler circuits with very low parts count and can be easyly constructed at home using simple hand tools and off the shelf parts such as mine seen here. Which BTW is a transmitting tube which is why it has a bright yellow glow. Basicly one tube is doing all the output amplification which is not very efficient, instead of two tubes one each doing half the amplification which is very efficient at making a lot of power. Set amps bring alot of harmonic imformation that just is not present in solid state amps or push pull tube amps in the opinion of many. Many would argue that SET amps are just tone generators meaning that they produce alot of distortion and that distortion is even order harmonics which tend to be very pleasing to the ear it typically sounds warmer or fuller rather than thin as many typical recievers can but not all, Push-Pull on the other hand cancels this leaving the wicked odd order harmonics taking some of the life and Drama out of the music for some. Klipsch loudspeakers are some of the most efficient in the world making them very compatable with SET amps allowing me to reach very high listening levels with just a few watts a great number of the Asian Society and others around the world are listening to such amps with a lot of pleasure being derived from them. Watt for watt a great SET can be very competitive with SS after all many SET owners will say that if the first watt isn't great don't expect the other watts to be great either! For what its worth as far as working energy goes it would take at least 20 typical recievers like yours to equal the working energy of my monoblocks which make 5.5 Watts RMS/Channel Don't let the low power deceive you most tube amps have burst power ratings a couple of times there actual ratings single ended is even more! SET12

Copperwire, Welcome to the Forum, There are a great bunch of people here with a vast amount of experiance. First as people have pointed out equipment says alot also be sure to take a look at your wiring, If they are out of phase it would explain your experiance with weak bass. I've owned Double Advents in the late 70's and have friends with them yet but they don't listen to them. Yes the Advents bass is very good but imaging is poor IMO, I would say that the Advents bass is more tunefull over the Forte's but thats it The Forte is more envolving, most amps work well with the Forte's though I prefer tubes. Setup can make the difference IMO. As far as the Forte's bass is concerned I am pretty satisfied as my References to great bass are the Dunlevy 4's and B&W 802's which neither the advents or the Forte's can hold a candle to IMO as these have just superb pitch definition even better then most subs. The Forte's bass can get ones attention though such as my neighbors I got a call one day from her as I lived in a side by side duplex she asked if I was playing music in the garage? I said no! I'm playing some jazz why? She said her pictures were moving on her walls! Really I said! How long has that been going on she said about a week! I thought yeah! that was when I had done my last modification to my DIY Single-Ended amps my brother was listening to our conversation shaking his head with explicatives rolling out of his mouth along with no way! no way! Being in construction he looked at the walls and the ceiling then at me and said he figured it out! What out I said! He told me that acoustic energy from the Forte's bass was entering the back wall going up the studs into the truss's down the roof line back down the truss to her wall and down her studs shaking her pictures. All this with two garges between her living room and mine not to mention from just 10 watts of tube power and no EQ controls. SET12

Allthough I have liked the sound of some CJ's I know of a few people that would not buy one of their amps again due to failing multiple times. I know they run some pretty high plate voltages to high for my taste. SET12

I wouldn't mind seeing a schematic of one of your amps. SET12 .

Paul, You know there is a well known Audio Designer that did a Science Fair project when he was 12 yrs old and won it! He built a simple 2A3 amp and demonstrated some sound effects with it! That man was Dennis Had of Cary Audio which I have had the pleasure of meeting a number of times over the years, I even meet his son once. You might be able to demonstrate high efficiency loudspeakers in contrast to unefficient ones. Heck you might be able to dublicate what Dennis was doing in his project I would think he be honnored by that you might even try e-mailing him he is a very personable kind of guy I once brought a kit of his to an audio demonstration of his electronics line along with a phono stage that had a design issue which he solved the issue in seconds and he then called his son over and said to him look these guys are underground audio people! Dennis has great respect for DIY people which of course are his own roots! I got to say that if I had the opportunity with a 12 yr old son or daugther and if they were interested like my 10 yr old daughter is in building her own stereo amp. Its what I do! Alot of the simple math for a 2A3 is in the RCA RC-19 tube manual. I could also help with it as well. SET12

Thats huge! Good luck on your search hope you end up tubes! SET12

Looking at the stuff you have thats a fact you must have a lot of space! I own Modified Forte's and use them in a 14x18 room easyly reaching 100db levels at my chair with 10 watt SET amps with no audiable clipping. Yes there are enough chessy recievers out there but in an average room like mine he should be ok! SET12

Of cousre I disagree with Craig in the last post. My experiance is related to amps equiped with 6550's then substituting 88's but usually 88 amps are more! Take WPM a nice moderately priced amp he has the ability to run any tube of his choice and yet his experiance parallels my own. Take a Jollita equiped with 6550's then listen to it with KT88's or KT90's either one will sound vastly fuller, richer, smoother than any 6550 in it IMO. Craig could equip his VRD's with any tube in this family but I think he knows very well the magic of 88's over all by equiping them standard with 88's his amps will strut their stuff with body, dynamics, and rich smooth harmonics which makes a great impression. I find the 88 more musicaly involving than any EL34 or 6550 in any entry level or moderately priced amps. 6550's are my least favorite though I have heard one PPP that stays in memory at 5000$/monoblock pair something should be right! and that was 15yrs ago EL34's can be magic no doubt! The 8B is one example but this amp is top-end! Mac's are also very good by reputation but they are no entry level or moderate level amp either. Another advantage of the 88's or 90's is plate dissipation which means more current capacity. In the end nothing is written in stone! And your very right about topology, It can have a strong enfluence with much of it being classical. Something of which my own 10 watt SET's are not TG. BTW I did try to look for some Baldwin amps to look at their topologies but chances are its classical as well. SET12

Power requirements! 200 watts for head room!

I basicly agree here it all works together but when it comes to entry level or moderately priced amps my moneys on the 88's! SET12

I'll second that!

I haven't heard a Cayin whats going on with them that you think is bad? SET12

I don't! KT88's hands down I have never heard a bad KT88 yet! Love their warmth and dynamics I like EL34's but the 88's are more involving for me and are much better looking! IMO SET12

Wait, Wait, Wait! Are you suggesting that 5ft of 12 ga on one side and 10ft of 12 ga on the other side is going to present a problem to the amp? Are you suggesting that an amp would blow up over this asymmetry? I guess I am skeptical over this one. Good Luck, -Tom An example although an extream example which I have not heard of another manufacture with the issues today was Polk Audio Speaker Cable from the late seventies its capacitance was so high that some amplifiers just fried such as my friends Marantz 500 amp the wire took out all the output transistors to a tune of 600$ back then Polks solution was to add Inductance. So I prefer to keep things even! Even if its not extream! SET12 You are talkin' the effect.... of using CAT 5 cable, as speaker wire, Dan ... NOT recommended as far as I'm concerned No, Duke The Polk Speaker Cable from the Polk Loudspeaker company of yesteryear was my first experiance with High End speaker cable and it did serious issues with some amplifiers of which none of mine ever did. This was around the late 70's and believe it or not this stuff is being used today yet! And talked about in some circles with using 2-3 parralled runs of it! Speaker wire has inductive and capacitive characteristics that influence sound and the electrical behavior of an amplifier such as bandwidth thats a given. And I'm not telling anyone what they can here or can't! Myself, My system has the capacity to reveal very fine nuances such as room acoustics and the room size by the very small ambiant ques that my amps can reproduce in startling form which I feel the balance could be disturbed by having different amounts of capacitance and inductance on my outputs. A few other things come to play here to such as a symmetrical listening enviorment to here these nuances. My soundstage is gargantuan and delicate so I prefer to keep my wire even lenghts. I have another experiance to talk about but am out of time! SET12

Wait, Wait, Wait! Are you suggesting that 5ft of 12 ga on one side and 10ft of 12 ga on the other side is going to present a problem to the amp? Are you suggesting that an amp would blow up over this asymmetry? I guess I am skeptical over this one. Good Luck, -Tom An example although an extream example which I have not heard of another manufacture with the issues today was Polk Audio Speaker Cable from the late seventies its capacitance was so high that some amplifiers just fried such as my friends Marantz 500 amp the wire took out all the output transistors to a tune of 600$ back then Polks solution was to add Inductance. So I prefer to keep things even! Even if its not extream! SET12 You are talkin' the effect.... of using CAT 5 cable, as speaker wire, Dan ... NOT recommended as far as I'm concerned No, Duke The Polk Speaker Cable from the Polk Loudspeaker company of yesteryear was my first experiance with High End speaker cable and it did serious issues with some amplifiers of which none of mine ever did. This was around the late 70's and believe it or not this stuff is being used today yet! And talked about in some circles with using 2-3 parralled runs of it! Speaker wire has inductive and capacitive characteristics that influence sound and the electrical behavior of an amplifier such as bandwidth thats a given. And I'm not telling anyone what they can here or can't! Myself, My system has the capacity to reveal very fine nuances such as room acoustics and the room size by the very small ambiant ques that my amps can reproduce in startling form which I feel the balance could be disturbed by having different amounts of capacitance and inductance on my outputs. A few other things come to play here to such as a symmetrical listening enviorment to here these nuances. My soundstage is gargantuan and delicate so I prefer to keep my wire even lenghts. I have another experiance to talk about but am out of time! SET12

The grounded grid pre is nice to I've read and studied from Bruce Rozinblit's books! A very good product. The nice thing about the AES is you get to look at some glow! There is something to be said of filament current for sound! As it has twice the current of a 12AU7! Some of my friends are Octal tube only people and want nothing to do with baby tubes as they call them! They are entitled to their opinions of course! The AES does not use a stepped volume control! SET12

Wait, Wait, Wait! Are you suggesting that 5ft of 12 ga on one side and 10ft of 12 ga on the other side is going to present a problem to the amp? Are you suggesting that an amp would blow up over this asymmetry? I guess I am skeptical over this one. Good Luck, -Tom An example although an extream example which I have not heard of another manufacture with the issues today was Polk Audio Speaker Cable from the late seventies its capacitance was so high that some amplifiers just fried such as my friends Marantz 500 amp the wire took out all the output transistors to a tune of 600$ back then Polks solution was to add Inductance. So I prefer to keep things even! Even if its not extream! SET12

Your work looks very good! From an experianced builder I'd say you have a talent! The Foreplay is a good kit as well with a large amount of support! I have heard the AES and it does well! I have a couple of friends who have built their kits and love them this a Cary designed kit! SET12

Check this out! Very reasonable http://www.audioelectronicsupply.com/ SET12

I was in a dealer show room and a sales person had an amp on siting on a sub playing it sounded smeared to me I said take it off! He said look it will balance a cigarette on end I said so take it off the sound then came into focus! This is the reason I will never buy a sub with an amp built in! Sorry but all electronics are microphonic including solid state devices! I once snaped my fingers next to a well known SS amps heat sinks and could hear the amp ring through the speakers. I also hear major improvements in space and focus and body when I recently moved my out board crossovers off the top of my Forte's recenctly I should have done this long ago knowning what I know about microphonics LOL! SET12