Edgar
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Posts posted by Edgar
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yuuuummmmm.....chocolate.........how do you eat a jub lf made out of chocolate......one note at a time.....
Yeah, but which sounds best; dark chocolate, milk chocolate, or white chocolate? Do you use ply-chocolate or medium density fiberchocolate?
Greg
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alot of people when confronted with clean bass seem to think something is missing
Exactly. If a person was to carry an RTA around with him everywhere he went, he would be amazed at the constant bombardment of low frequency content -- slamming car doors, passing semi-trucks, ventilation systems, etc., etc., etc. -- that goes totally unnoticed because it's just "there". But record those very same sounds and play them back on a system with deep bass capabilities, and the low frequencies sound overblown and unnatural, even though the system measures flat.
The thing that I like about horn-loaded bass is that it does not call attention to itself. It is there, it's not weak by any means, but it blends in with the rest of the audio instead of shouting over it. It's loud when it needs to be loud, and quiet when it needs to be quiet, and it doesn't waste any time transitioning between the two. The only direct radiator systems that I've heard that come even close were those with huge radiating surfaces.
Greg
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especially if they are chocolate covered
Oh, Roy, I just got this mental picture of a Jubilee constructed entirely of chocolate. Brought a big smile to my face.
Greg
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"I think that he would find your comment to be humorous."
That would be a good thing, since that's how I meant it.
OK, just checking!
Seriously, Keele is very pragmatic about speaker design. If his goal is to maximize efficiency, then that's exactly what he'll maximize, in a very objective fashion. Give him a different optimization parameter, and he'll do whatever it takes to optimize that. As audiophiles, we exist in a slightly different world, one that is far more subjective.
Greg
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Keele is a traitor.
That paper was written in the 70s. The laws of physics have changed since then. [
]I used to work with Don Keele. I think that he would find your comment to be humorous. He has forgotten more about horn physics than most of us will ever know.
As with all things "audio", there is more to it than just the math and the measurements. It is the intangibles that we enjoy.
Greg
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I thought Linkwitz-Riley was cascaded Butterworth filters.
It is. 2nd order LR is two cascaded 1st order Butterworth. 4th order LR is two cascaded 2nd order Butterworth. And so on.
Looking more closely at the Dx 38 user's manual, I see that it offers 4th order Butterworth filters in the crossover functions, but only 2nd order in the filter function. So it's not quite as easy as I originally thought, but it can still be done with a 4th order Butterworth crossover, two 2nd order lowpass filter sections, and two parametric EQ sections.
Greg
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Doing the Xti's on both horns is as you heard, pretty killer AND gets you the 48 db/slope that the Dx-38 won't fully do
You can construct 48 dB/octave (8th order) Linkwitz-Riley crossovers by cascading two 24 dB/octave (4th order) Butterworth filters. The Dx 38 can do 24 dB/octave Butterworth filters, no problem.
Greg
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What I would like to do, is, simply EQ the bass horn a bit in the 300-400 Hz region, to boosting it to catch up with the HR90, which CAN be integrated easily into the cabinetry. What I don't know, is, how well does the bass horn respond to EQ'ing this range? Anyone done it?
I have no experience with this.
Didn't Bruce Edgar mention that adding reflectors at the internal horn bends improved the bass cabinet's HF performance?
I agree that a possible change in driver could help a bit, but, you know, I have listened to these horns with the original WS1504's that Speakerlab put in them, and I've also put a pair of EV15L's in them, and I must say, the K33E's sound WAY better than either of those.
As they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. No arguments here.
Greg
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Another possibility. Keele's equations show a mass rolloff frequency of 177 Hz for the K33E woofer. If you can find an old Electro-Voice EVM15L (361 Hz), or a current DL15BFH (314 Hz), you might get a few extra dB above 175 Hz. Note that the current DL15ST (187 Hz) and DL15Y (268 Hz) are not as good as the DL15BFH in this respect. You might also have to adjust the back chamber volume.
There are undoubtedly woofers from other manufacturers that will provide similar performance. I'm just more familiar with the EV products.
Greg
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For goodness sake, please DON'T cut the HR9040As. They're becoming as scarce as Faberge eggs and I'd hate to see a pair destroyed.
I cannot comment on your other questions, except to say that the 9040A might look very strange mounted atop a KHorn or Jubilee bass cabinet, because the "lips" will overhang the front of the bass cabinet by quite a bit. That seems to be the hardest part of living with these horns -- aesthetically it is difficult to match them up with any kind of "box" cabinet.
Greg
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Or get Martinelli to make a large wood copy of the first Tracktrix horn like the one in the Paul Klipsch/Jubilee photo.
If you're willing to go outside the Klipsch line ...
http://www.electrovoice.com/download_document.php?doc=1669
http://www.electrovoice.com/download_document.php?doc=1672
http://www.electrovoice.com/download_document.php?doc=1681
These are all in the ballpark to fit the width of the La Scala bass section.
Greg
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The spec show what Don Keele says. Also what antenna designers say. I always point this out.
Exactly. That is what I thought I was trying to say in my original response, but frankly I didn't have my brain completely engaged and missed the mark on a bunch of things. Among other things, I failed to distinguish between the radiation pattern and control of that pattern. The pattern is determined by the "cone angle" of the horn. The frequency below which the horn can no longer control that pattern is determined by the physical size of the horn -- larger horn means ability to control to lower frequency.
Ever post a message without completely thinking it through, and then wish you hadn't? That applies to my original response.
Greg
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The cinema brochure spec for the K402 list:
Horizontal: 90 degree (+/- 20 degree) 220Hz to 14kHz
Vertical: 60 degree (+/- 15 degree) 600Hz to 18kHz
mike tn
I stand corrected on the K-402.
Greg
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Not trying to rain on you parade, but my two cents:
The 402 is really designed to have higher control of its vertical dispersion to control ceiling and floor bounce. Turning the horn on end would create more near-field reflections from these two sources (and few people apply ceiling treatments).
Not raining on my parade, you're saying the same thing that I did. My mistake was apparently in choosing the 402 as an example -- I am not familiar with its radiation pattern, so I assumed that it was narrow horizontal and wide vertical. If the 402 does, in fact, have tighter vertical control than horizontal control, then in "landscape" orientation it's already in the best configuration to minimize floor and ceiling bounce.
Each horn is unique in how it controls dispersion. Most of the non-multicell pro-audio horns that I have encountered have the narrower beamwidth associated with the longer dimension. But there are always exceptions.
(On edit: Looking at the current EV catalog, I see that it's pretty common for short, wide "landscape" horns to show larger horizontal dispersion than vertical. However, they cannot maintain their vertical dispersion to nearly as low a frequency as their horizontal dispersion, presumably because of the smaller physical dimension.)
It still might be worth experimenting with "portrait" orientation, because in the near field the pattern can be significantly different than in the far field.
Greg
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Here's my question: does the 402 horn/K69 combo work equally well in a vertical orientation?
It's counterintuitive, but at any given frequency many horns have a narrower radiation pattern in the long dimension than in the short dimension. Using the 402 in traditional "landscape" orientation as an example, this means that the pattern might be only 40° in the horizontal direction (the larger horn dimension) but 90° in the vertical direction (the smaller horn dimension).
For sound reinforcement this can be a good thing; it means that the entire audience from the front row all the way to the back row is covered, but the side-to-side radiation is controlled and kept from being bounced off the side walls of the auditorium. In the home, however, it might actually be better to use such a horn in "portrait" orientation. This way the sound is kept from being bounced off the floor and ceiling, but it still fills the entire room side-to-side.
Certainly worth trying.
Greg
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You're welcome.
Also some interesting Interface D woofer info here: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-110854.html
Greg
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...any chance you might know where I can get some Interface D woofers refoamed and the VMR's, possibly reconed?
Here's the scoop from my friend at EV:
Hi Greg,
I checked with our service department and they list the Interface D as
not repairable. The VMR (Vented Mid-Range) appears to still be
repairable assuming he doesn't have a large quantity. If he wants to
send the in here is the contact information:
Bosch Communications Systems
1 Telex Drive
Morrilton, AR 72110
Phone 800-685-2606
If he does send them in he will need to fill out a form. It can be
obtained from the following link, which also has the addresses for
service:
http://www.electrovoice.com/contact.php?t=5.5&c1=1&c2=74&c3=&p=&z=55311
Another option, especially for the Interface D speakers is to contact
Bill Hanuschak at Great Plains Audio and see if he can help:
GREAT PLAINS AUDIO
7127 NORTHWEST THIRD ST.
OKLAHOMA CITY, OKLAHOMA 73127
(405) 789-0221
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...any chance you might know where I can get some Interface D woofers refoamed and the VMR's, possibly reconed?
I haven't been with EV since 2000, so I don't have any insider info. But I'll check with some of my old colleagues there and see what I can find out.
Greg
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I assume that you're talking about an installation drawing--an engineering drawing, from my experience, is the one that is used to make the part(s) and assemblies. In that case, an installation drawing would detail the bolt-up sections and the overall dimensions.
Yes, installation drawing is what I mean. Sometimes, just banging-away at the keyboard, the subtle differences don't really occur to me.
Greg
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I don't think that the horn is a strict trachorn shape. Here is another view - you'll see a non-uniformity in the horn about 2/3 of the distance to the mouth.
I agree. In that respect it is similar to the HR9040A, which has a conic section connected to an exponential section. The 9040A is a CD horn.
Good luck on the engineering drawing. It may be easier to acquire a real one.
That strikes me as really odd. When I worked at EV, we provided all of that info, in great detail, for system installers.
Greg
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Messages coming in faster than I can keep up with them ...
Greg,
Just put my 4' level across the front of the 402 and measured back to the screen. The depth when measured like that was 16 5/8 inches.
Perfect. Thank you.
Greg
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Anyway, you ...well "I" can't really get what I feel is a GOOD measurement from that standard to the horn lip without angling the tape upwards a bit which as I suspect... is going to change the dimensions a bit, no?
Thanks, a "ballpark" figure will be good enough for the time being. I really appreciate your help.
Greg
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Another view...
Thanks. It would be so much easier if there were just some engineering drawings available.
Greg
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Where are we going with this?
I'm trying to design an enclosure into which a K-402 horn will fit. I'm actually designing for multiple HF horns, the EV HR9040A being the one with dimensions most similar to the K-402. Designing for the 9040 is easy, as I have a couple examples packed away in my basement. But I don't have a K-402.
Greg
So why Jubilees....
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
What, no "crispies"?
Fiddling-around with a KT DN6000 RTA at work one day, I was surprized to find very strong ambient content below 20 Hz. It was the air conditioner. I was never conscious of it.
Greg