fire pinch

---------------- On 2/8/2004 1:52:59 AM formica wrote: Have you sold your tempest yet? ---------------- Nop, it is on my room again, taking quite a lot of place heh!! Wow! I should buy another RCA cable and then I could stack both of my subs before loosing the Tempest! The Tumult on the Tempest, in the left front room corner... IF I can move this PIECE OF lalallahhhh!! OR... no, maybe placing the Tempest in the right front corner and then my peak and my depression in my FR curve could be corrected? This would be too cool to be true!

MAX Spl test at 3 meters away at the listening position: 12 Hz 95 -> 111.5 dB 16 Hz 98 -> 109.5 dB 20 Hz 103 -> 111 dB 25 Hz 106 -> 111 dB 31.5 Hz 110 -> 113 dB 40 Hz 118 -> 120.5 dB These results are kinda weird in a certain way, this is because... figure that I dont understand if the woofer bottom out or not!!! For the 12 and 16 Hz, I pumped up the sub volume until clipping, it didnt bottomed out to my ear again but still, I could hear some sort of distortion. For the rest, I didnt know if this was the piece of furniture noise or the woofer itself, its that hard to differentiate and I dont want to dammage the woofer! However, the woofer dust cap is pretty warm when you touch it so im gonna wait a couple of time before doing some new testing. Im gonna do that test again for sure, when I'll understand better how this woofer distort! Who can touch me at 12Hz??? If I could send a video of what the sub does to my room at 12 Hz, I would. Ive taken 2 videos. The first one show my bedroom door CLACKING and the second show a rack CD + some other stuff SHAKING and really shaking on a desk not so near me. For my next test, I will want most likely to get ride of that piece of furniture because it vibrate easily as you approach 105-110 dB so it bother me when Im doing SPL test. Im concentrated to know if the woofer distorts or not and passing 105 dB, I begin to hear that piece of furniture and it makes a really strange noise, like if the woofer was distorting!

No any problems at all! When you will try for the first time to put your flower pot on the sub, just dont play your sub all the way up for beginning and with each volume increments, see whats happening! I wouldnt do that with my Tumult sub thought. When I see the clothing just under it which moves like if there was some wind blowing it (at each boom for example), it makes me think that I should never put anything on it!

Wow its like if we were on MSN or another chat program LOL! Well, the most common damping material I know is the bags of Polyfill you can buy at Walmart. But also, you can choose "egg foam crates"?? Damn english!! You know, the yellow eggs foam stuff!

---------------- On 2/6/2004 9:49:06 AM Groovie wrote: "Not too long ago there was a guy who had boughten some Paradigme's and boasted about how they were better than his old RF-3's or something and he was totally ripped into." Have you ever directly compared Paradigm to Klipsch? I think the reason people are so adamant about mains vs. subs is that there is so much more range in the mains. The dynamic range of sound in the mains lends much more to individual opinion, where the less dynamic range of the sub has a more universal appeal. The masses can formulate a like or dislike for the main speaker and one can easily appreciate ones own taste for the difference in the mains, where the sub takes a finer more professionally attuned ear to discern the differences. So what I am trying to get at here is that most people get the difference in mains and are much more fanatic about their personal beliefs and just don't take the time to discern the subtleties of the sub! Back to Paradigm and Klipsch, I comparred them in a well designed audio store and personnally the Klipsch RF series simply blew them away! JMO ---------------- Which Paradigm speakers did you listened too? The main contest I see frequently is comparisons between the Paradigm Reference series and the Klipsch RF series. For the average Jo who use a 100W receiver, the Klipsch really shine because they are so sensitive. I like personnally the sound of the Klispch Reference series because they are very dynamic, female voices sounds really good you get a really live sound with them, like if you were on the stage! But when you match the Paradigm Reference series with a very powerfull amp, lets say a 250W great quality amp, NOW you are talking more! They are simply power hungry and they needs power to come alive. In my opinion, I find the Paradigm Refs to brings more details and imaging. Lets say that if I could have a powerfull amp, I would buy them without any hesitations. But with a lower amp, I wouldnt insisit on the digms Reference and bewteen them or Klipsch, Id choose Klipsch. Just my preference and anyway, every people have different tastes and opinion!

I did with my Tempest. Polyfill helps reducing the back waves which are not welcomed when you want a pure natural uncolored bass. This is more usefull with a ported cabinet because those waves can go out of the enclosure by the ports. Also, damping material is used for making the woofer thinks that it sits in a bigger enlcosure. Usefull if you want a smaller enclosure but when you want the effects of having a bigger enclosure. However, I didnt use damping material with my Tumult because the Qtc I got with the size of my enclosure is exactly the one I wanted! Moreover, I felt that with a sealed enclosure, back waves are reflected inside the cabinet so they dont have a noticable effect, but Im NOT sure and Im rather biased on that. I just think that its logical, dont you find?

No body respond to Formica?? Im gonna do my first steps haha! Well, Formica, your sub extends very well down to 16 Hz, this looks like my Tempest but a bit flatter below 31.5 Hz. I remember that I could hit a maximum of 115 dB at 20 Hz, 116 dB at 22-25 Hz. I think that I hited a max of 117 dB at 31.5 Hz but Id have to verify my notepad.txt files My sealed Tumult disapoint quite much below 40 Hz, I thought that it would be more powerfull than that because the woofer just can move twice the air of my Tempest. This should compensate the fact that its not in a vented enclosure. I dont know whats wrong or if this is really what it can do!! But I know that this piece of furniture really PISS me off. It is made in wood as you can see on a picture on my tread but when you look behind, there is a cheap material (I dont know how to say it in english) which begins to get stitched. So I expect the bass to not bounce poperly from the left wall because of this. Its like... the bass get reflected from the left wall and then goes in the piece of furniture, and get imprisonned in it LOL! This is why I saw an improvement of 1 to 2 dB when I got ride of it for some minutes. The problem is that I dont know where to place it, I dont have so much place in the basement and moreover, I place my socks and my shorts in the drawers of that piece of furni****. Ahhh what a difficult room I have for SPL!!!

Be carefull too with that Brahma 15 in WinISD Pro, this isnt the Brahma MARKII. The T/S parameters are a bit different. Dont change the setting serie resistance. I dont know exactly how it is usefull but I know that you dont have to change it. Someone else know the meaning of that special setting? And the signals you are talking about, is this the frequencies you see on the graph? The signal generator have nothing to do with that. You can change the range of frequencies seen on the graph by going into the File menu, options. By the way, if some people are following the tread yet, Im gonna post soon my MAX SPL results. Dont be surprised thought, because I know for starting that at 20 Hz, I get a maximum of 111 dB at the listening position. I dont know if I should take my measurements at one meter, like many pro reviewers or at listening position. I think that Im gonna do both...

Well the 12 bad... its just that the 15 is best suited for home use than the 12. And the 15 looks fine when you play with it in WinISD Pro!

---------------- On 2/7/2004 8:50:24 PM Jordan wrote: Say one was also considering a Brahma 12, it is not reccomended for home use, what kind of problems would one run into? ---------------- Oh the problem would be that this Brahma wouldnt go very low in a sealed box in home. Well you know, those Brahmas are more suited for the car. A car has a higher cabin gain and boost more the deep bass than in home. So in a car, the woofer doesnt need to be as much capable as in home, because of the car cabin gain. And if they could make all the car subwoofers like home one, those car subs in sealed boxes would give a bumped frequency response down low instead of a flat one (in a car).

Hmmm hard to say just by looking at the picture. Not only the logo isnt there, but also the dust cap is inverted. It looks like the first Brahmas. But if they say on the webpage MKII, Im sure than this is what they really have. Sometimes, some stores forget to update their pics Haha!! You save 20$ That 20$ is the shipping cost maybe? By the way, I did answer your post before the one Im answering you now by a PM.

---------------- On 2/6/2004 10:09:41 PM Jordan wrote: But I do not need gobs of power to fill my 10 ft. square room. So the Brahma 15 mark II is another good choice or not? Sorry bout all the questions, I just like all the info you are giving me here, THANKS! ---------------- AHhaha!! No problem! It depends of how much you are willing to pay. The AV-15 cost two times less than the Brahma 15 but isnt two times less powerfull. The AV-15 is at $205 and the Brahma at $439. If you calculate the total cost with an amp, this would be 234$ less for an AV-15 sub if we considere that you would power them with a 800W amp. However, with the same amp, the Brahma woofer will give you a bit more SPL because it is more sensitive. BUT, expect the Brahma sub to have not only a little bit more, but more CLEAN SPL. The two sentences just before this one have a different meaning. It wont seem to be much more powerfull in the first place, but you would see that it takes more time before hearing audible distortion or some sort of coloration from the woofer. An XBL2 enabled woofer just have a sound of its own compared to the rest. For example, if you take a none XBL2 enabled Tumult with an XBL2 enabled one, both will rattle the wall as much when pushed at the maximum but one will sound worse than the other one when pushed farther, and definitively distorted near of its Xmax. My Tumult sounds so clean that I dont know when Im bottoming it out sometimes!!! Well its like, I turn up the sub, again and again and OPSSS "clack clack"!! oh oh! So you see... This is just when Im running some test tones that the distortion is more audible and it begins to distort really near of its full Xmax. So in the END, once you have the woofer, amp, enclosure, etc together, considering that you wont pass the 1000W line (its what you said?), my preference would go toward the Brahma 15 if you have the money for more clean quality SPL. However, if you would like to save some money, dont worry anymore and choose the AV-15. The AV-15 is a very potent woofer, and I say VERY potent!!! It has to deserve respect. And Im sure that you would get the SPL you want with it if you wish to spend less money. Moreover, if you want more power later, you can always make a VENTED enclosure with it and NOW we will talk!

---------------- On 2/6/2004 5:46:30 PM Jordan wrote: Cool pictures man. Did you take them with a digital camera? That amp is huge, and nice too. Did you build your own box from scratch? Or did you get it as a kit and put it together? Anyways, nice pics.That cd on your website inside the sub cone is sweet, that sub is a monster. Thanks for lettin us take a look. ---------------- Yep, taken with my digital 3.2 Mpixel cam. The picture were in 1280x960 originally, but I decided to make them small for 56K users The 3 first pictures (the small one) were taken with the flash, and the 2 others without it. And yep, I built my own box from scratch. I made myself a Tempest subwoofer too and a car Shiva sub. I have still the Tempest sub yet Powered with a Class D 300W amp, It is for sale now... Anyone want it? ---------------- I'm curious, how would the 15" Brahma sound in comparison to the Tumult? It has a box recc. of 1.5-3 cu. feet. And would only need 800 watts to power in a box roughly 2.85 ft. cu. ---------------- The Brahma 15 Mark II should sound similar than the Tumult, having the same XBL2 technology than it. The Brahma 15 in comparison just have less Xmax. In power, it is between the AV-15 and the Tumult.

Others pics... there is one in there that is not so related with the sub but its just to show you our winter time in Quebec! It is snowing right now, at this moment. The two first pics show my PLX amp, the third one, the pair of gold plated binding posts on the back of the sub with 12 GA wires. The 4th one is how the sub looks like when the camera is sit on my Tempest which is about 3 meters away and hahah, the 4th one, well, this is picture I took randomly of outside. You can see my left neigbhoor garage! lol! If you want other pics of the subwoofer or the amp or something else (I dont know... my room cuz we only see a part of it now), tell me. Formica, this would be cool if you could post a pic of your room so we could see where your sub is located May I add too that all the pics that Ive taken since the begining are all in my website at : http://pages.infinit.net/remy

Ok... yeah this driver would be GREAT for you! Very great. With a very powerfull amp, this should be a KILLER sub for the price. I dont know if the 1000W thermal limit is conservative for the woofer, but Ive done some modeling with that driver in the past weeks and if the woofer thermal limit wasnt an issue, it could take quite a lot more than 1000W easy, with the right subsonic filter of course. As for the durability of the driver, even thought I never saw it myself, some people on the HTF forum have used this woofer and they really love it.

A new pic today! Well, this is a corrected picture of the Tumult excursion. The one already posted is kinda blurry In that one, you really see the woofer surround going out of the enclosure!!! This was done during a 16Hz note!

---------------- On 2/6/2004 12:50:54 AM formica wrote: What's this about peak and nodes being more pronounced? I'm looking at 8db difference between 20hz and 40hz while you've got 12db. It's very hard to compared sealed and ported, as your looking at driver roll-off at one end and x-over roll-off at the other... but this was a race / competition ... ---------------- Yeah you are right about my peak! But we should considere that the room has an effect only between 31.5 to 50 Hz, so it is now more like yours, about 7dB. Under 31.5 Hz, IMHO, this is more about the soft roll off of the subwoofer. However, the depression I have in my curve, now there is a quite big difference. When you take a look at my numbers, we could say that my reference point is around 94 dB. I have only one depression and it is a 8 dB depression. If we look at your graph, you have two main depressions! Oh well... I hope that we are gonna find a solution to our room curve. Without an EQ, Im guessing that this gonna be hard . I have still a big hope without an EQ, just because my ceiling is made with accoustical tiles! Maybe some other sub placements can correct more my room SPL curve. But I know that If I place my sub elsewhere, Im gonna loose some SPL because I found that the really best spot of it is really on the left room corner. Just beside me too, this is a good location but I loose power down low. Oh! And I did some fast MAX SPL tests yesterday, and you absolutely crush me down. That was kinda expected At 20 Hz, I cant touch more than 111 dB. This gives me the evil idea to make another vented enclosure for the Tumult! But I didnt test at 12 Hz LOL!! But Im very sure that without that piece of furniture, and if I would place the sub directly on the ground, I would gain about 2 dB. Still not a big deal again... I have a VERY HARD room for SPL. My ceiling and the floor dont reflect the waves very well. First, my ceiling is an absorbant material (accoustic tiles LOL). Second, the floor of my bedroom is also the ceiling of the kitchen downstairs. That floor isnt perfectly sealed, it is made with pine boards. During the winter, because the air is more dry in the room, the wooden floor tends to "react". Im sure you understand what I mean! This would be interesting if you could test your sub at 12 Hz, just by curiosity, to know how it would react beeing a vented sub.

A monster in punch, but less of a monster down low at 20 Hz! What do you mean by uncivilized music? That one would be great for boom boom music!

Ive done my FR curve test, and I cant correct for now my peak and valley. However, I succeded to reduce them by playing with the crossovers. Last time, my low pass was at 50 Hz but I forgot to change my high pass which was at 80 Hz! The best results now are with both the low and high pass at 50 Hz. And I have something in which you will say NO SENSE AT ALL! IMPOSSIBLE! LOOK LOOK!! -Sealed Tumult powered by a 2400W amp, low to mid-Q design (in case some doesnt know yet) -Measurments taken at the listening position, 3 meters away in a 1500 cubic ft room -Low and high pass crossover at 50 Hz -Results correct by the Radio Shack SPL compensation chart -C Weighted, slow response -Any other usefull info that you may want to know? 125 Hz 94.5 dB 111 Hz 97.5 dB 100 Hz 93.5 dB 89 Hz 91 dB 80 Hz 86 dB 71 Hz 88 dB 63 Hz 93 dB 56 Hz 97.5 dB 50 Hz 101 dB 45 Hz 106 dB 40 Hz 105.5 dB 36 Hz 102.5 dB 31.5 Hz 99 dB 28 Hz 98 db 25 Hz 95.5 dB 22 Hz 94 dB 20 Hz 93.5 dB 18 Hz 93 dB 16 Hz 92.5 dB 12 Hz!!! 91.5 dB!!! (I may recall that those measurements dont show the max SPL of the subwoofer, this is an FR cruve test) YES!!! You really did see a 12 Hz somewhere!!! I got SO much surprised to see the number 75 on the SPL meter!! The SPL compensation chart says to add 16.5Hz at this frequency so this gives an unbeleivable 91.5 dB at 12 Hz! If this is the only big advantage that I can have of my sealed Tumult, then Im gonna be very happy! And also, as you can see, I have the same room mode than Formica and the same room depression althought they seem to be less pronounced. I guess that our room are nearly identicaly shaped Formica? I dont know if Im gonna be able to do the MAX SPL test before the night... but Im gonna come back tomarrow with another post, this is a promise! Max SPL at 12 Hz?? P.S.: If you dont beleive that 12 Hz result, I can take a picture where we'll be able to see the test tone frequency on the computer + what we can read on the SPL meter, on the same picture...

Ohhh woww!!! Looks far better down low now!!! Now, my Tumult only wish of this kind of output in his sealed box! I didnt do any high SPL test yet, but Im gonna do one in something like 15 or 30 minutes. Numbers should be posted before the night, and If I have some time left, some pictures

Really soon, Im doing the FR curve test now!! (damn I said the secret) The low and high pass crossover is at 50 Hz this time. Ive found that I have the very same problems than Formica, but at a lower scale, and quite much. And Formica, if you read this post, I think that I know a solution for our valley at around 70 Hz. When I played the test tones, at each frequency, I moved a bit at the left and at the right of my seating position. I found that at higher frequencies, I can get more or lower SPL when I walk just beside my listening position and this is really the case at 70 Hz. For lower frequencies, even if I walk beside, there is not so much difference, as low as 1 dB most of the time!!! And I know that my towers are not centered very well. The left tower is more in front of me than the right one. So I thought about two things: 1- Changing to crossover to a higher point, I even think about 120 Hz (low pass AND high pass too) so the none-centered bass of my towers wont have any effect anymore. 2- Recentering the volume of my front towers. So the valley may change of location. Im gonna try this and if you find that its a good idea, try this as well! For the moment, I have a very nice curve under 36 Hz, the bass goes down while loosing power very softly and evenly until 16 Hz. (Very soft roll-off). My very last low frequency FR curve test showed this: -High/Low pass @ 50 Hz -At listening position (3 meters away) -C Weighting slow, with corrected measurments 31.5 Hz 93 dB 28 Hz 92 dB 25 Hz 91 dB 22 Hz 88.5 dB 20 Hz 87.5 dB 18 Hz 87.0 dB 16 Hz 86.5 dB

---------------- On 2/5/2004 1:07:41 AM formica wrote: Subwoofer only, max 4db, sine waves (RMS), x-over at 80Hz 16Hz 103.0 db vent noise audible 18Hz 103.0 db vent noise almost not audible 20Hz 108.0 db 22Hz 109.3 db 25Hz 112.0 db 28Hz 113.0 db 31.5Hz 115.0 db 36Hz 116.0 db 40Hz 121.0 db 45Hz 119.0 db 50Hz 110.0 db 56Hz 104.5 db 63Hz 82.0 db 71Hz 89.0 db 80Hz 83.0 db 90Hz 74.0 db 100Hz 91.5 db 112Hz 88.5 db 125Hz 86.0 db ---------------- OMG! Im sorry to say that Im quite impressed!!! This is not a little peak you have there at 40 Hz!!! I thought that mine was problematic but I think that I can relax more now! Are you sure that its not a room placement problem? I cant imagine a peak like that, Im sure you can find a solution! OR... maybe, the sub is too hot compared to the rest??? I just have a hard time to beleive that your sub is at its best location!! Another thing which I find strange is that with a phase of 180 degres, you get more power. I'll have to try this with mine! If that big peak wasnt there, I think that bass extension would look great *Update*: I tried to play with the phase and I just get worse SPL when it is not at 0 degree!

For what kind of woofer? For both the AV-12 and the Tempest, a vented enclosure is recommanded if you want great SPL. The Tempest I have now is a 200L (approximative, a bit bigger than the 194L listed) enclosure tuned around 18.5 Hz. I chose this size and tuning because I like punch and power, and even though the SBB4 alignment may not be the greatest for flat extended bass in room, I have very good extension down to 16 Hz in room, FLAT. Under 16 Hz, the sub begins to roll off rapidly. And also, I chose this size because I wanted the smallest possible great alignment for the Tempest. A 170L box tuned to 17Hz is suggested by Dan Wiggins too, if you want the smallest possible vented box for that woofer. But that size isnt listed on the website. Ahhh, now I would like to explain and to talk more, but I must sleep now now now!!! If my answer isnt enough complete and I feel that it is, post again and Im gonna answer tomarrow. Some people may even answer you during the night! hehe

"Is there a website with pre-made home subwoofer boxes?" Sure, you just wrote the adress just at the end of your message lol! They can make an enclosure for you. "I've narrowed my search to an AV12 and an RMX850 for $474 without box. I just don't think I need all the power and displacement of the Tumult because my room is small,10x10x8ft. What are the wiring options for the AV12? I'll be ordering from here. http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/products/subwoofer_drivers/stryke_av12-15/" Wise decision! The AV12 can be wired in series for a 4 ohms as this is a dual 2 ohms driver. Just so you know, just replace that AV12 by a Tempest, and you got your total price reduced for the same kind of performance, even a bit more. But the RMX amp would be overkill for the Tempest and if you prefer a plate amp, you would be able to find some not so expensive. The MCM 250W amp is at 89$, a real deal and if you feel more secure with a more powerufll amp, MCM sells 360W amp WITH remote sells for 139$. So a total of 288$ + shipping (with the 360W amp!!), super bang for the buck!!! But just one thing thought, the Tempest like big enclosures. If the enclosure size is a concern, forget what I said

---------------- On 2/2/2004 5:14:33 PM formica wrote: As for the sub, I should get some time to do a couple more tests this week and have a better idea of how it performs. Will post up the results... Rob ---------------- Yup, this is what Im gonna try to do as well The college eats up my time!