fire pinch
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----------------On 1/31/2004 10:09:22 PM fabulousfrankie wrote: ¸LOL...Was the subwofer was vibrating your hand while taking the picture
?----------------HAHAHA!!!
I know, the pic is kinda blurry and Im gonna take a new one today (Sunday, my time). Its quite true that the woofer pressurized a lot the air just beside and my hand was not so far LOL! But no... its most likely because I wasnt stable when I took the shot and I have to be death stable when I take one. Why? Because the shutter speed of the camera has to be low (1 sec or more) in order to take the woofer in motion. If the shutter speed is too high, you will see the plain woofer not moving at all. So just imagine that I have to stay very stable during 1 sec or more. In that case, the shutter speed was at 1.6 sec if my memory is correct. And if the shutter speed is too low, the picture will be too bright.Tomarrow, I hope to do a final TRUE test, where I will get the maximum SPL between 16 and 40 Hz, and also, a nice FR curve if I can get ride of that room mode around 40 Hz. But NO promises!
I dont have a parametric EQ, but Im sure that by changing the crossover plus some bass settings, that I can reduce that room mode.For the moment, a little secret
, one data got fastly recorded. During a song, when the subwoofer was not so far of its limit, I got a peak of 122 dB at one meter, during a deep note which I estimate to be a 40 Hz note. I dont think that I could get a 124 dB at one meter like Formica, that 124 dB Formica, that was at 40 Hz or under approximately??? Even if the Tumult is an impressive woofer, I cant hope more of it in a sealed box... By the way people, should I benchmark the sub at 1 meter during the max SPL test? Or should I do it at my listening position which is 3 meters away? The FR curve gotta be tested at the listening position, which is quite logical. This would be so cool too if I could grab the DVD of LOTR: the Two towers. My friend has all the collection, but I will not be able to get one of his Dvds before some days. But its not a problem I think, I can add the results later on this topic
And this will make you just more tasty! -
Something new today, a picture of the Tumult in action!
I wanted to host it so you can see it without clicking on the file but god damn, I lost all my softwares which permit me to do this!!! I have a quite buzy day , Im gonna try to post some objective datas before the night if I can. I begin to be like The_Ear on his Mega PC Speaker comparo topic! But well, people are not complaining too much as I can see, so why not posting more in one week? -
----------------On 1/31/2004 3:18:32 AM formica wrote:Fire, it's not like I'm that far... just a little over 2hrs away. Will you be coming to town for the Festival Son & Image of Montreal, from April 2 @ 4th ? It would be a chance to meet up... perhaps a couple of other members might be interested in joining in...Later...Rob----------------
Umm... from April 2 @ 4th... if my parents let me go with their car, I dont own a car actually, I use the one of my parents. I can still use it when I want, they are cool for that but travelling a "long" distance like that, I dont know if they will permit this. We'll see!
And if I go to Montreal, it would be cool if I could stay for a minimum of 2 days, I would go visit some friends too. Ohhh but Im thinking about it, I could use a bus!! Bus... can we say that word in english too? LOL Make sure that you will send to me a mail one week before the ultimate date in order to make me remember the event and I'll see what I can do. Ohhh and Montreal, this is near the house of The_Ear!!! Ear, would you let me come visiting you? -
I was just saying that even with my "puny" conventional woofer(compared to the Tumult)
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Cmon Frankie
the AV-15 is not that puny vs the Tumult!! Hahha!! I would like too, to hear an AV-15 one day. Damn, I would like so much that you and Formica live NEAR near my house! ----------------
I've done a quick little subjective test with different subs that all had similar FR and found that when they weren't being pushed I couldn't tell the difference between my dual AV15's, a single vented DIY sub using an SVS CS driver, and a vented DIY sub using a Cerwin Vega Vega 128(car sub)----------------
This is what Ive seen too with different subwoofers. Same thing with the Tumult, except that you can push it nearer its Xmax with less distortion. The thing is that I really really didnt beleive this at first... because like you, I thought that it would be a bit better due to the motor technology, I didnt think that I would perceive a good difference. I had in mind that the Tumult would just have more excursion and air displacment capability but it has more than that! Maybe this is one reason for the price of this woofer which is considerably higher.
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Jordan,
Yes, those pics and maybe some other things should come tomarrow, satursday. Im gonna try to get ride of this "room mode" around 40 Hz. But I noticed that the crossover wasnt set correctly, it wasnt at 80 Hz, this can affect the FR curve, I should say it changes it
*Whooops little update*
Frankie,
Did you see my FR curve (which is quite shorted) results in my Tumult topic? Does it looks pretty like the one you had with your sealed AV-15? Do you have a room mode? Any EQ?
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Nop, the RMX amps dont have any RCA jacks. You can see it at this address: http://www.qscaudio.com/images/hi_res/product_shot/rmx1850_bk.jpg
My QSC PLX is like that too, it doesnt have any RCA jacks. It has XLR and 1/4" Mono jacks... BUT you can still buy some adapters, this is what I did (Mono 1/4 to RCA converter).
And there is something I wanna add Jordan. Does the amount of spent money is important for your next sub? If money is the most limiting factor, and you want the best bang for your buck sub (between the Av-15s, blueprints and Tumult) I would still choose an AV-15 sub. Just my humble opinion... and I would make it vented. A greatly tuned sub can sound as good... well almost, as a sealed sub. Always considering the money, for more punchy chest bass and when forgeting a bit the bass <25 Hz, I would look for the Blueprints 15s or 18s (if the size doesnt bother you).
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Tumult vs that Blueprint, the Tumult will be more capable power wise, and even more clean output wize. But still... the AV-15 and those Blueprints + the amp which go with the respective woofer can bring more SPL for your money. Oh... and if they are again like that, the Blueprints normally have higher Fs, which means that they are more suited for punchy and chest pounding bass. The Tumult woofer as a comparison to the Blueprint 18 incher for example may have more SPL for very deep bass (<25 Hz), but it should be less powerfull in the mid-bass and punchy bass region. Especially if you choose to go with a sealed enclosure, the Blueprints may be less good in bass extension. If you want to go sealed + not to pay as much as a Tumult + you want your sub to go as low as possible, I would stay with an AV-15. I didnt modeled the AV-15 side by side with a Blueprint 15 or 18", but Im pretty sure than the AV-15 has the edge for the bass extension.
P.S.: When I did some theorical outpout comparison between the Tumult and the Blueprints, I didnt compared them theorically in CLEAN output. Im really that serious, the Tumult is really unbeleivable when you considere clean output. I dont know how we should compare it against other woofers. For the moment, when I compare it, I dont say in clean output, just to be like if I had another woofers. IMHO, other DECENT woofers without the XBL2 technology are quite similir in ability to play clean bass (low distortion). Am I hallucinating or what??? I REALLY begin to wonder if I do! [img src=http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/images/smilies/6.gif'> I will have to ask to other Tumult owners if they notice that the Tumult has that much of a difference when we talk about low distortion bass...
Frankie,
This XBL2 motor technology REALLY make a difference, you absolutely have to hear it once!!!
. In CLEAN output, if Dan Wiggins says that 3 Tempests = 1 Tumult, this means in CLEAN output that about 7.5 L of air = the 5.1 L of the Tumult. This means too that the Tumult is somewhat a bit of an exeption in clean bass output. Well, when I look to those liters number, I think that Im not totally correct, but you can see the ratio of clean air displacement. And now, this is pretty questionnable, how much AV-15 = 1 Tumult?? Two AV-15 = 7.6L of air right? Well... dual AV-15s will sound louder, but how much loudly clean? Is the AV-15 a cleaner sounding woofer than the Tempest? Not at the same quantity of air displaced but when they approach their respective Xmax. Who knows?Well, I did some observations and here is what I found (Tempest vs Tumult):
The Tempest sounds loud, when its excursion is at about 80% of its Xmax but you can hear noticable distortion. In the other side, the Tumult sounds loud, when its excursion is at 80% of its Xmax, but it sounds incredibly cleaner. I was one who was skeptical about the XBL technology, but now, Im a beleiver!
Well, I concluded this by taking some measurements with each woofers and with my ears. I dont know if other Tumult users got the same conclusions than me but well... well, IM IN A HURRY to see that new finish Frankie!! -
Hmmm yes, with that amp and considering its price, this would be a great buy for the Tumult. Bridged, it could gives 1450W into 4 ohms. But... have in mind that this amp is not fully silent, it uses a fan to cool itself. Also, this is a qsc RMX and Im using the PLX series. I was affraid at the first place to buy a QSC RMX amp because some people say that they are more noisy than the PLX. BUT... you can still change the fan if you want, once you have the amp, its feasible.
In what kind of enclosure did you plan to use your future woofer (whatever you choose the AV-15 or Tumult) ??? Because if you use a Tumult in a vented enclosure, you will have to use passive radiators because a vent will certainly not fit in (it will be most likely too long). With the Tumult, you need lots of venting if you use ports, the port/ports would have to be very large, and more the ports are large, more they have to be long for a same tuning. For example, I would use a 6" FLARED port as a MINIMUM, but often in that case, the flared port lengh is > 40". This depends of how big is the enclosure in cubic ft and what's the tuning point, that was just an example. Still, with even a 6" FLARED port or a 8" port, I would consider the Tumult sub underported. Those port sizes are good for an AV-15 however.
SO... bottom line, after some deductions, you will find that you most likely need to use passive radiators if you want to go vented with a Tumult. The Stryke 18" passive radiators are a very good choice, you would need two of them. But if money is important, STOP and think about it. If you go vented with a Tumult, add the cost of those passive radiators: about a good $350 if you count the shipping and some taxes maybe even a bit more. You need a powerfull amp. The Tumult is quite more costly than the AV-15. You got it? A Tumult solution is good, if you want the most powerfull woofer in a single sub and also, if you want a woofer with extremely low distortion (<3% at a Xmax of 56mm both ways according to Adire). BUT... if you want the best value between those two woofers, the Tumult and the AV-15, look no more, this is the AV-15 you must have paired with a modest amp. If you are affraid of what kind of SPL the AV-15 can do, dont worry. Its a great woofer and you can always add ANOTHER ONE later if you wish, and the total cost of a dual AV-15 setup would be still on part with a single vented Tumult matched with a powerfull Pro amp PLUS, this dual setup would give you more output than a single Tumult: 5.1L of air for the Tumult and 3.8L of air for an AV15. Well, however, even if dual AV-15 can displace 50% more air, it doesnt mean that they will give 50% more CLEAN output. They WILL have more clean output, BUT just so you know, Dan Wiggins of Adire Audio tell us that 1 Tumult = 3 Tempest in CLEAN output (1 Tempest is 2.56L of air and 1 Tumult 5.1L). Still, a dual AV-15 setup would be better value for xdB/1$.
Well, finally, think about all what I said and Im sure that Frankie, Formica or even other people will tell you as well about the same thing.
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Wow!!!
I cant stop to be surprised by this subwoofer, especially by its very low distortion and clean bass. Compared to the Tempest, its like a new experience! How can I say this... hmm . Always compared to the Tempest, the Tumult produce more FELT energy, but at the same time, that bass is less perceived to the ears! For example, if you play a 30 Hz note, you will have to push farther (NOT THAT much) the Tumult to HEAR the same bass, but in fact, if you do that, you will just rattle more the walls and vibrate your pants! This is just to tell you how really low its distortion is... if the Tempest could sound louder to the ear, it is certainly because it produced a more distorted sound even if the Tempest woofer didnt sound sloppy or distorted.The Tempest sounds loud, when its excursion is at about 80% of its Xmax but you can hear noticable distortion. In the other side, the Tumult sounds loud, when its excursion is at 80% of its Xmax, but it sounds incredibly cleaner. I was one who was skeptical about the XBL technology, but now, Im a beleiver! Well, I concluded this by taking some measurements with each woofers and with my ears. I dont know if other Tumult users got the same conclusions than me but well...
This difference is often more lived when the subs play loudly. At low volume, the difference is less perceived. Also, it is more noticable with deep bass notes, certainly because at those frequencies, the woofer excursions are higher.
Here is a very short number list, showing some in room SPL (consistency). I understood today that I have a big room mode at 40 Hz too, not SOO big but it is still there. And it was there too with my Tempest, you could see that from 80 Hz then I started to gain some SPL at 56 Hz. This is definitively not an effect of the crossover. But something which is true, is how far the bass can extend in my room. At least, I have this luck!
For the moment, I post the results under 31.5 Hz just to show you how far it extends. Im trying at the same time to correct that room mode without any EQ. I just tried to move the sub a bit more toward me and the output stayed the same in the mid-bass region but I lose some dBs around the room mode which is around 40 Hz. I may recall that I have a SEALED subwooefer, low to mid-Q design:31.5Hz-->109.5 dB
28 Hz--->109 dB
25 Hz--->107 dB
22 Hz--->105 dB
20 Hz--->104.5 dB
18 Hz--->103 dB
16 Hz--->103.5 dB
Thats about all for now... some pics will be added shortly and I have the idea to take a pics while the Tumult is moving a lot
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Hmmm... no, if you go with the Tumult, you better have something like a 1600W amp to make it shine but the Part Express 1000W amp would be a good choice too if you want a plate amp.
Im using a QSC PLX2402 (2400W) amp to power the Tumult, bridged in 4 ohms. Can be considerated dangerous for some people, due to the woofer thermal rating limit (Pe=1600W), but I like power
, and I prefer to have a more powerfull amp in order to have more headroom. I even experimented a 850W of my QSC. In that case, I was only using one channel in 4 ohms but I found that the woofer could take way more, and the amp cliped easily.In the end, I want to add that the only advantage you would get with the Tumult, with the amp you have, is a more distortion free and cleaner bass. The distortion of that woofer is SCARY low, so low that even a 20 to 30 Hz note is more felt than heard!
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Ahhhhhhh!!! Finally!
I wanted to post more tomarrow, friday, because its late for me now, I must sleep but the devil told me to post a picture right now! You can maybe see some little little glitches, but they can be gone away whith a cloth. This is when I put the woofer in the enclosure that those little cosmetic glitches appeared (you can see some at the bottom). The picture now is presented as a file but Im gonna try to host it later tomarrow or during the week-end. More to come later... -
The Tumult woofer likes power and it less sensitive than the Titanic MKIII. So with the same amp, you better stay with the Titanic. The Tumult cost is more justified when you look for a very small powerfull subwoofer. As an example, Im using it in a 2.75 cubic ft enclosure sealed. Despite its sealed, I just tested it during like a ten minutes (yes it is now finished
) and I get surprinsgly good extension to 20 Hz!!! Not SURE SURE, but I can even say that it is ALMOST flat to 20 Hz, when I hear some bass tests with my ears. A SUPER clean 105 dB @ 20 Hz for the moment, I didnt push it far yet, the amp felt comfortable and the woofer too. I wonder if Im gonna pass the 110s at this frequency... this is still a sealed box and this kind of SPL at this kind of frequency is a hard task for a woofer I couldnt push it farther because at the time of this message, it is 11PM and people begins to sleep all around and this is the total silence downstairs. So with a poor bedroom floor like mine (let the bass passing easily through as it is also the kitchen ceilling LOL), oh oh, I must not turn it up loud! -
Yep Frankie, the finish count for a +5dB bonus
LOLL!! Wow... I just heard my finally FINISHED Tumult and for now, I dont detect any air leaks!!! MOREOVER, I dont have to turn up the sub volume as high as before (I had to turn it all the way up) in order to have the same volume. Well, this is my very first impressions and I dont know if Im hallucinating!!! I think that this would be too strange to be true! More to come tomarrow with one or more pics -
Haha!! I fire a post during the same day than Formica!!!
Our treads are just beside each others hehehe! Tomarrow is the day of the finished Tumult (I HOPE SO MUCH)! The finish is correctly applied and now, I just have to add the new gasket, and to re-solder the wires which goes from the woofer to the binding posts. I had some problems with that soldering iron... like if I didnt have enough problems with my router! L O L !!!!!!! Maybe some photos tomarrow... ahhhh and at the same time, this is tomarrow that Im gonna know if the new gasket seal greatly the woofer, Im so anxious!! I wouldnt like to have any kind of air leaks again! lol...
but Im still happy that Formica and I are QUITE in Sync for our sub Who did win the race? LOLLLL!!!!!!! -
"<...>it is very powerful and could not imagine needing more , but sometimes think it lacks real PUNCH for music."
----------------On 1/23/2004 1:52:23 AM Hyabusha wrote:you should go with the Klipsch RSW-15 first.----------------And now, my answer:
Missing something, I dont think so too if you talk about how those subs sound. BUT, you talked about the punch for music and the RSW-15 is famous for its attack and punch. Ive never heard an SVS but I think that its why Hyabusha recommanded to you to go with the RSW-15 first.
Hyabusha, does the RSW-15 was more punchy than your SVS PC+ cylinder? I've read that many people find the RSW-15 more punchy and than some SVSs like the PC or PC+ line (could be too the CS or CS+) or even the PB1 / PB1+. But they said too that the RSW-15 has less power down low, in the 20s (not that the RSW-15 cant go there).
Still, IMHO, I would prefer a sub which can go flat in the 20s over a punchier sub which begins to drop off at 25-30 Hz.
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Hmm... if your future RW-12 will be right placed and well callibrated with your RW-10, it could be a good thing. You would have more depth, as the RW-12 is more capable down low than the RW-10
How do you want to place them? Both stacked in a corner? -
Yep... if you have the money, go for it
Compared to the GMXs, you will have better overall sound quality as well, the PM Ultra sub can go considerably lower too. And your placement idea is great most of the time. In a room corner, this is where you have the most room gain, but there are some exceptions. For example in my room, if I place my sub to the front right corner, I'll have less power because just beside that wall, there is a bedroom, that surface is less reflective. However, in my front left corner, there is the brick wall of my house, well if you go through it, you simply fall of about 5-6 meters high and you dive on the ground ... in that corner, the bass is more reflected due to what you can find behind that corner. If for any weird reason you feel that the sub doesn't give all what it could deliver, post again and we'll answer ya In that case, there are some hints which can tell you the very best spot you can have for you sub. In my case, I can considerate myself lucky because I can obtain quite very flat bass without using an EQ. BUT... not for sound pressure level Just below me, there is the kitchen and the floor of my bedroom, is also the ceilling of the kitchen, I dont know if you understand. And also, my ceiling in my bedroom isnt made of wood like all my walls, so the ceiling + my floor dont keep the bass greatly So I can considerate that all my SPL results in my smallish 1500 cubic ft room are the same than in a room like 2 times bigger and maybe even more. -
New picture of the woofer, taken with my new camera
Could be more sharp but I had absolutely to take the camera in my hand for taking this kind of view. I'm finishing the sub tonight and tomarrow. Can't wait to know how it will perform without the air leaks If I have the time, next week, I should post an objective review with some datas. -
Oh wow... thanx for this. This is maybe dumb, but I didnt know too well how to do a search for this... "me" english isnt perfect yet
Thats the "DIN" I didnt have too well in my mind... -
Wow... no people can reply to this topic??? I acknowledge, this is not an easy one to answer
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Hi all
My friend is HARD pressed
to know something about a possible extension for his PM4.1s and I thought that you guys, would be able to help him. Here is what he has to say:===============
I need to know if an extension cable like this exists:
The wire thats on the pre-amp that plugs into the subwoofer, the one with 8 pins and looks like an S-Video cable.
I need to be able to plug this cable into the extension cable and the extension cable into the subwoofer.
==============
Thanx for any help!!!
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I wonder how much power that HUGE motor can eat!!! And what would be its performance in an enclosure!!! How big would it be too... and god!! I guess that the enclosure must be heavy as hell (15 persons to lift it LOL) if not, it would RUN on the floor and hiting the walls each time it booms!!
In a sealed box with enough power to reach Xmax, if that monster can be like 80 Tumults, it means that it could pound a little 150 dB @ 20 Hz!!! -
----------------On 12/31/2003 9:36:21 AM Colin wrote:Then I dial up the sub volume so that I can hear it make a difference in the sound, while I am at the sub. Just enough to add to the bass, not more so.----------------
This is what I exactly do most of the time because I dont own for the moment a callibration disk.
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Effectively... Normally, a 5.2 setup compared to a 5.1 setup, the goal is to have more bass, not to have a more "surrounded" bass like Goosechaser explained as the waves below 80 Hz are none directional. Buy the PM Ultra first, and I think that you will be really satisfied of what the sub can do!
This would be better buying one set of PM Ultra than choosing the GMXs + an SWS sub for the overall sound quality. And you can always add another SWS or even more if you really want more bass than what the PM ultra sub can do if you are a bass freak. But generally, people really love the power of the PM ultra sub alone, because it is really good! -
Yes... by buying an SWS sub. You link it to the PM Ultra one and you get a 5.2 system
And how would it sound, it depends of how you will place the other sub or both of them in your room. Sometimes, if you place them wrong, they can cancel their bass each other. How would you place those 2 subs? Would you stack them? What was your idea for the placement? Two subs togheter can make real great bass and in some cases, even better than just one. When you just have one sub, you can have big peaks and valleys in the frequency response in your room but in those times, sometimes when you add another one and that you place it well, it can help to reduce those peaks and valleys + the new sub addition can add more omph.
I dont have a parametric EQ, but Im sure that by changing the crossover plus some bass settings, that I can reduce that room mode.
, one data got fastly recorded. During a song, when the subwoofer was not so far of its limit, I got a peak of 122 dB at one meter, during a deep note which I estimate to be a 40 Hz note. I dont think that I could get a 124 dB at one meter like Formica, that 124 dB Formica, that was at 40 Hz or under approximately??? Even if the Tumult is an impressive woofer, I cant hope more of it in a sealed box... 
And this will make you just more tasty! 
But well, people are not complaining too much as I can see, so why not posting more in one week? 
I cant stop to be surprised by this subwoofer, especially by its very low distortion and clean bass. Compared to the Tempest, its like a new experience! How can I say this... hmm 
LOLL!! 
Tumult sub is finished!
in Home Theater
Posted
Maybe you find your sub not powerfull enough because you are too much used to the mid-bass boost (I just think that there is certainly one) of your Energy XL sub? Or your almost EBS alignment doesnt give you enough punch? Dont tell me that there is not so much difference in power between the AV-15 and your Energy. I'd be like
"What it comes down to is the fact that it's really hard to compare in room measurements..."
Still... our room are quite similary sized. But I know that we dont have the same room Our results might have some things in common if you know what I mean... Its not like if I had a 7500 Tom Nousaised cubic ft room!
Are you sure that you got the very best placement for your sub? I thought so much that the AV-15 would impress you! 