mace

djk, Thanks for the clarification of "Watts RMS" and what it really means. About the dynamic headroom issue... you make it sound like something like +6dB would only be found on a 'poorly regulated power supply' amplifier. At least with my experience, I've found dynamic headroom (at least 6 dB) to be a good thing in an amplifier. My take on the dynamic headroom issue is that it is what it is... dynamically allocated umpff.. the amp goes to 11 if you will, albeit for only about 200 ms or so... I agree, this has nothing to do with how "loud" an amplifier is but has everything to do with how dynamic an amplifier is. I wholeheartedly agree with you that dynamic headroom does not indicate how good an amp sounds. However, when done right, dynamic headroom can really make a smaller amplifier (like 40 VA RMS (is that better??)) sound very alive, especially when coupled with a speaker with 102 dB-W-m sensitivety. If I read your post correctly, you indicated that rated RMS power had nothing to do with the sound volume an amp can produce. Take a 40 VA RMS amp and compare it to a 200 VA RMS amplifier... how can the 40 play louder than the 200??? Does it have something to do with peak current delivered?? How can RMS power not relate to overall sound volume the amplifier produces??? I'm just curious how this would be physically possible. Always curious, Mace

Question for STORM: How much do the speakers cost which are recommended by the stereophile magazine which you were referring to?? To the original question: can you ever own enough Klipsch?? I'd have to say as long as you have to room to use 'em... own all you can! Later, Mace

Hello, I don't know if this is applicable to what you're asking buy I've got an old NAD 3240 amp ( ftp://NADelectronics.net/info/NAD_3240.pdf ) about 1990 vintage driving my new KLF 30's and I'm very happy with the system. The 3240 is 40 W RMS but has great headroom, up to 200 W peak power so music is very alive. There is plenty of bass for my tastes (hard rock, techno, classical). I can't really comment on how much my old NAD has in common with new NAD's, though. blasing: How do these SPL's work (I know you advised me before to get one as well)... Can you set what frequency it is measuring the level of? While on the subject of bassiness... I've been very surprised at how different each of my CD's sound... I mean, with my first speakers (Boston T930's) I never noticed just how different each band sounds. For example, if the recording is mixed with some roll-off in the bass like Queensryche's Operation Mindcrime, I didn't get nearly the punch out of the 30's as I was expecting somehow. But, with bass heavy stuff like Metallica or Kraftwerk the bass is really solid and really nice and accurate... very accurate and not at all boomy, just clean and deep. Very nice indeed. In other words, I find the 30's to be very accurate. They truly reproduce the recording and don't seem to colorate things at all. Speaker placement is important, as is where you place your ears. When I crank up the 30's and go into another room, some parts of the room really set up standing waves which just make my head hurt (bass overload) while other areas tend to be bass shy. Also, the type of chair or sofa (wood, metal or cushy etc.) you're sitting in can have an effect on what you hear since it will carry the vibrations into your body, which all affects the sound, especially low frequencies. Just my 2 yen worth, Mace

Gil wrote: Sales people sometimes incorrectly speak of RMS "power". I believe they are trying to say the amp will put out a certain amount of voltage over a long term. Thanks for the nice refresher. Do amplifier manufacturers also incorrectly refer to "RMS power"??? In the literature for my amplifier it clearly states "continuous output power into 8 ohms" and it does not mention anything about voltage. I noticed that you left out amperes out of your equations but it was my understanding that actual amperes delivered to the speaker is very important, especially for controlling the voice coil of low impedence amplifiers. Can't one just plot amperage as a function or voltage (power = current * voltage) and get a sine wave (assume constant current)? Thus, if my amp is delivering 56 W peak to peak, this is 0.7*56 = 40 W RMS, no?? Isn't it fun to talk about amps from amps? While we're on the subject.... what exactly is subject to damage when impedences are incorrectly mismatched?? My amplifier has a switch for 4 and 8 ohms settings and my KLF 30's are rated at 8 ohms, as are my Boston's (which run off of my B channel). In another forum BobG recommended trying both ohm settings and seeing which one I liked better. However, can I do damage to the amp or speakers or both by having the amp set to 4 ohms when the speakers are rated at 8?? (although i suspect the KLF 30's tend to run lower than 8 when driven hard...) Any comments would be appreciated. I'm loving my new KLF 30's, BTW... awesome... I've had the whole weekend to myself (after travelling for 2 weeks) and am finally getting a chance to really give a good listen. Quite amazing... Mace

Thanks for the info on biwiring (the link above). I'm curious to try biwiring but I wouldn't want to invest in the wire (and hassle and thicker/more cable laying around) without knowing if my ears can tell a hoot of difference. I'll have to sleep on it. Maybe they have something biwired at my stereo shop I can listen too. Mace

Audio Flynn: I've got a 10 year old NAD 3240 integrated amp(40 W RMS, 200 W peak into 4 ohms, no receiver) driving my KLF 30's. Many moons ago I drove some cornwall I's (1982 vintage) with the NAD. I've always been happy with this amps performance and clean, dynamic sound. I'm not sure about the newer NAD's but the old ones used to use power envelope technology which allowed a lot of dynamic headroom (up to 6 dB) which made for a lot of amp for the money. As far as pure musicality there are better amps but you're going to pay a *lot* more for them (smoother, more tempered sounding amps). NAD reminds me of Klipsch's philosophy.. for the money (while not totally cheap) the performance is just amazing, especially for hard driving rock music. I find the NAD/Klipsch combo is even better than going to a concert (don't get beer spilled all over you and crushed by the crowd!) FWIW the damping factor on my NAD is listed as ">50 (8 ohms)". I've always found the bass effortlessly punchy and full, if that makes any sense. I'd definitely seriously consider NAD again if I was on the market for a new amp (which I may be soon, for a power amp). Mace

DwK, Some amplifier makers "load up" the front end, or the first half of the volume dial putting most of the power there. This can make the amp seem more impressive since the guy on the showroom floor can turn it up to 11 'o clock and blow away potential customer, who thinks the amp has more than twice as much power as he's hearing, which lots of times just isn't true. I've always been curious as to the ampfilier setting vs. watts output for my amp. But I don't know if there's any way to truly measure it. It's a tricky game since the amp puts out current and resistance is always changing from the speaker (it's frequency dependant).. so watts aren't really continuous either. Anyway... what I find important with amplifiers is how much dynamic headroom they have and how much current they can produce... that is, how well they can handle peaks. Some amps only have about 1-2 dB of dynamic headroom while others have up to 6. The more headroom, the more alive and dynamic the music sounds. Now that I think about what I just wrote... why does my amp put out more Watts at lower impedence setting??? It peaks at 160 W at 8 ohm and 200 W at 4 ohm setting (40 W RMS regardless of ohm setting). I thought watts are I*R. And yes, I'm a believer that you can have too much power.. if you value your ears!! Mace Denon/NAD/Klipsch What else do you need?? This message has been edited by mace on 06-12-2001 at 09:16 PM

boa12: doh!! I get it now... biwiring is actually running two sets of wires from the amp. I probably won't ever get around to trying that. Right now I've got some fuzz in my speaker selector switch anyway. When I run A+B I have to fiddle with the switch until I get full sound in 'A' speakers. Thanks for the explanation, Mace

boa12 thanks for the info. So, if I understood correctly you said that replacing the factory bi-wiring improved sound by using banana plugs and monster cable but didn't improve when you just threaded the cable though both connectors?? I wonder why that was?? What about the wiring inside the KLF 30's? Is that suspect too? Funny how one can spend so much on speakers and then modify them right away because they are insufficiently made at the factory. Today I did some listening with my amp set to 4 and 8 ohms at loud volumes. It sounded to me like the 4 ohm setting was a little more solid at the low end, especially for bass heavy recordings like newer Metallica and Daft Punk. I am enjoying the rare moments alone. As far as being loud with young ones... for someone to blast kids ears off is akin to child abuse, I think! Later, Mace

This reminds me of another question... Should I connect the amp to the top or bottom connectors?? Does it make a difference once I jumper the connectors with some monster cable?? Also, what specifically sounds bad with the factory jumpers? It would seem that the solid pieces of metal would have less resistance than the monster cable... what are the factory jumpers made of?? Enjoying every earful I get of the new 30's (somewhat limited with 20 month old son...), Mace

Hello, Are the bi-amp connectors from the factory ok on the KLF 30's?? The guy at my stereo shop suggested removing the "skinny little connectors" which connect the plugs on the back with a few inches of monster cable. However, the connectors appear to be pretty beefy, they are little gold (plated) metal strips which contour to the back panel profile. Does anyone have any experience with these connectors?? Has Klipsch changed the design of these bi-amp connectors? Thanks, Mace Denon CD NAD Amp Klipsch Speakers

Thanks for the replies. I know that speaker placement is very important and the room makes all the difference. I've got the 30's in a room about 22x16' with one of the 16' sides being open to another room. When I first set them up I set them up against the long wall about 12' apart. I knew this wasn't ideal so I moved them to the short wall about 8' apart. I like the imaging much better now but they are a bit boomy at times (each is about 3-4' from corner, 6" from back wall). I'll have to play with distance from wall... but there is only so much my wife will tolerate I believe. Anyway... these speakers are real gems... truly astonishing. I love how you can be listening comfortably and then try to speak and can't hear yourself. The music just surrounds you so effortlessly.. so clean and rich. HornEd: In case you catch this thread... I wish you a speedy recovery from your root canal. Mace

Well, the 30's arrived and are just dandy.. very dandy. I've searched on this board about breaking in and found that folks seem to agree that the speakers need to "break in". I am quite curious: What is the mechanism of this breaking in?? Is it for the woofers? Horns?? Does one need to really crank the speakers at first to "break them in"?? Should I not crank them for a while?? What exactly is the difference in sound before and after breaking in. From what I've read here it seems folks just say "you'll know"... but what changes exactly? lows, mids, highs? all? These are truly nice, nice, nice speakers.. so happy am I. Mace

As I new KLF 30 owner I must ask: exactly what will fall apart with these??? Mace

WOW!!! The speakers came in today and the store even delivered them to my house (they made a special trip to Indy to get them) free of charge... can't beat that! There was only one guy who delivered them and he carried them from the truck to the house (no dolly) by himself since I wasn't home at the time. Quite the accomplishment. Kudos to the store where I got them. Perhaps they saw these posts here and put 2+2 together at who I am and saw I couldn't wait much longer. We were sorta suprised at the size of the things even though I knew how big they were. At any rate, we're getting used to them. I had to put them way away from the TV, like a good 40 cm. The Bostons didn't have any problem getting close to the TV... guess that's why the 30's are a tad more efficient than the Boston's... big ol' magnets. I will have a good chance for a listen tomorrow since I'll be home alone. Happy days, Mace

Well, now they get here on Friday...extremely aggrevating.... So, what exactly gets broken in with these things?? Does the sound really change after a couple of weeks? What exactly happens during breaking in? And, by the way, a big thanks to HornEd, BobG and KGeist and the others for all the great info and advice. It makes waiting a little easier (although not by much). Mace

KGeist, I think that made sense... about the larger cabinets needed to get lower response for bigger woofers. Now, onto more pertinent matters :biggrin ... supposedly these big bad 30's will get here on Tuesday. Keeping my fingers crossed... Mace

Well, the speakers didn't get here so now I've got to wait until Tuesday when they get the next shipment in. I've already moved the old ones in anticipation. I really can hardly wait to get the goosebumps back (from the cornwall days). Mace f>

Well, the speakers won't arrive until Tuesday... bummer. mace f>

Hello, Yes, I'm aware there are smoother, warmer amps out there but I've really been pleased with the sound of the NAD, especially how clean it is and distortion free. When I was amp shopping there was a Yamaha amp which sounded a little smoother, not as harsh, with classical music but it cost 3x as much as the NAD (which I got new for $250). Plus, with the pre-amp out option I can upgrade to a good power amp someday and use the 3240 for a pre-amp. The 3240PE is rated <0.03% total harmonic distortion (THD) not just at full 40 W output but from 250 mW to 40W. In addition, the 'low level' button takes out 20 dB and is useful for taking out amplifier distortion/noise at low listening levels. I have a sneaking suspicion I'll be using this low level button a lot of the time with the Klipschies (as my wife calls them) since even 125 mW will give 93 dB at 1 m. It drove the Corwall's beautifully and I really can't wait to get my hands on the 30's. The speakers should be here today! Mace s>f>

Hello, Thanks for all the replies! I am still curious why the 30's have a tad less bass response than the others in the Legend series (36 Hz vs. 34 Hz (not dB as I mistakenly typed)). I doubt I could hear the difference. As far as amplifier impedence settings.. my amp has a peak output of 160 W with 8 ohm setting and 200 W with 4 ohm setting. Thus I assumed lower impedence setting meant a little more ooomph (we're talking peak power, not contiuous here). When I had the cornwalls the guy in the store said that if they were being driven by hard rock music the actual impedence was closer to 4 ohms and not the rated 8 ohms. I'll just try both with "normal" listening levels and see if I can even tell a difference. The NAD 3240PE can deliver up to 25 amperes of current. I assume this doesn't fall under the "current-limited" amplifier category?? Question: how do you guys deal with having 3 sets of these things in the same room?? How can you *not* be deaf???? Anxiously awaiting KLF day, Mace f>

<[bR>Hmmm... I need to stop reading this board... with every post I'm getting cold feet about having ordered the KLF 30's (don't even have them yet).... should've maybe waited for the RF 7's!! Is there some sort of listening room available down there in Indy where folks who live in your backyard can drop in for a listen?? Mace /font]

Hello, I ordered some KLF 30's and I haven't received them yet. I have some questions about them however. Are they magnetically shielded so they can go close to a CRT TV?? I downloaded the manual to the KLF series and it make them sound like they were made for home theater. I couldn't care less about the sound of movies and such, I use my stereo for CD music 99% of the time (I like hard rock, metal, classical, techno and other genres). I'm getting a little nervous... I was under the impression the KLF's really sounded musically fine, some of the most accurate speakers Klipsch has ever made (for this price range). Do these speakers sound excellent by themselves or do they somehow rely on other speakers (surround, center channel, subwoofer)?? The KLF 30's will go on the ground floor of our house which is berber carpet on a concrete slab base. Should I use the little spikes or just set them on the carpet?? I know the impedence of the 30's is 8 ohms but are they really 8 ohms? I had my amp set to 4 ohms with some Cornwalls many moons ago (see below). What does the impedence setting really do, anyway? Yes, I like to turn it up to about max (11-12 'o' clock or so on the volume dial). Although, with the efficiency of the 30's I may never go above 10 'o' clock since I don't want to become too deaf. What's the deal with the cross-over frequency? I read in another forum that the upper one of 7 kHz is too high and results in loss of clarity/sound volume for things like high hats and such. Any opinions?? Also, the lower crossover frequency of 825 Hz will split the human soprano voice... does this muddy things up?? How good do lower voices/guitars sound going through the large 12" woofers?? The KLF 30's don't have the low frequency response of the KLF 20's (36 vs. 34 Hz). Why is this?? The 30's have bigger woofers. The KLF 30's have the same horns as the 20's. Do the 20's sound any different than the 30's?? I'm starting to wonder if I should've just gotten the 20's and save a couple hundred bucks. The 20's and 30's also have different crossover frequencies, how does this affect sound?? My current set-up... An NAD 3240 power envelope 40 W (200 W peak) integrated amp and Denon DCD 620 with Boston T930's (3 way, 10-inch woofers), I use some sort of moster cable 20 feet long each side. Everything is about 10 years old. I have been overall very pleased with this set-up. While not at all high end it sounds like more than the $1000 I put into it. I had the pleasure of babysitting my brother's Cornwall's (I think 1's) about 10 years ago and haven't forgotten them in the least. He won't sell them (although he doesn't use them much) and so I went ahead and got some 30's. My wife also prefers the 30's smaller footprint over the width of the Cornwalls. Since the KLF's are discontinued I couldn't listen first but I did do some listening to the 20's at a dealer about 4 years ago and have pleasant memories. I realize that ultimately it's my ears which will make me happy or unhappy but what do other people think of the 20's and 30's? How do they compare to each other and to other Klipsch's? To Boston Acoustics?? I must admit, I really didn't shop around for speakers, I knew I wanted for Klipsch, I have for years. I walked into my local store and ordered them (after talking him down quite a bit in price). Now that I've dropped the dough (more than twice what I spent on the Boston's) but they aren't here I'm getting nervous that I won't like them... waiting is a terrible thing! Thanks for any info! Mace This message has been edited by mace on 05-31-2001 at 04:22 PM