Bubo
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Posts posted by Bubo
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One thing that was interesting for me to note was how many people were using music servers and controlling their content from the side / back of the room. I've never been a fan of seeing someone's backside as they lean over to make an adjustment or change things out.
The highlight for me was the jazz concert Friday afternoon.
Given that Audio is a male dominated industry, I totally agree with you......
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And in some cases, bands that sounded great to us when we first heard them years ago, actually suck when played on a reasonably accurate sound system and no amount of adjustments can make them play better on the recording. GIGO
Funny story about that, as a matter of fact. The first time I listened to Bang Bang (by Jessie J, Nicki Minaj, & Ariana Grande) after upgrading to a more appropriate amp and preamp, I realized just how empty-sounding the song is. It's a bit of an extreme example, but it goes to show just how much they engineer recordings for what the target demographic will listen to them with (mostly Beats headphones and car stereos). A good 2ch system can be a double-edged sword like that! (On the other hand, I listen to much more jazz and instrumental than ever nowadays)
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do you guys tweak EQ per album?
Mostly no, but sometimes yes.
Depends on the Artist, some CDs are so dead on that anything makes them sound less.
The EQ I am currently using has 10 presets, and 5 programmables.
I have cycled through the presets more than once with guests, and they always select the same setting which is interesting. I punches up the bass and the female voice just a bit, but very noticeable.
I do have to say that on some vinyl, if I toggle between the EQ and direct I end up on direct, perhaps a tribute to Dual, can't think if the name of my famous Danish cart and the McIntosh phono section from 1980?
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The Mastering Engineers have to get the sign off from the performers for the final cuts on the music, so if the artist is deaf or has severe hearing loss you can frequently hear it on the LP, ridiculous high treble etc.
There is also Loudness Wars which adds 12db noise and kills fidelity
There is also quantization error which sounds increasingly metallic as the bit rates go down.
Psycho Acoustics added to the re-mastering; and for the low bit rate market mastering adds tons of hiss and other noise to mask just how bad low bit rate sounds over a $1 dac and $2 ear buds. The target market for a lot of the music. Bass Boost for the kids is one more way the re-masters butcher the music for low bit rate playback.
I recommend remastering tracks yourself for a while: a couple of months of greater than 20 hours/week is my recommendation. That translates into about 30-60 albums, minimum.
I believe that about half of what you've said here will simply disappear or even reverse itself after you've spent a little time undoing what the mastering engineers have done in the past, typically never actually correcting the original EQ curves, but simply adding compression and limiting for "remasters". My remasters are actual remasters, starting with un-clipping the original stereo tracks and rebalancing the entire 20-20kHz band much flatter to be much less strident and much more natural sounding.
See https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/155096-the-missing-octaves-audacity-remastering-to-restore-tracks/ as a starter. I learned a lot as time went on in that thread--up to the present (I was remastering Wish You Were Here this morning and took a short break on "Welcome to the Machine" to browse the forum.
For instance, here is the current EQ "unmastering" curve for the SACD version of Welcome to the Machine (PCM layer) that I arrived at:
Doing it for a while is a much different than repeating what others might have said about it.
YMMV.
Chris
Nice write up on the link OFS.
At Axpona, the guy selling the rebuilt reel to reel Tascam's was playing copies of original masters, I assume unbutchered, at the high speed, the Stones never sounded that good on any other system that I've heard.....the butchered released products?
Mastering and remastering is the next frontier for me to explore.
For now, learning electronics and repair has been keeping my busy. I have stacks of gear that I am at the beginning of rebuilding. The Gear is demanding love at this point, so it's rebuild first........
On the gear side..... get it working to spec, then see what can be improved, frequently the tech has improved over the past 30 years so simply putting better tech and better rated parts yields results for a few dollars. Once repaired and improved, the OP amps are worth revisiting, op amps have a significant impact on the analog systems and may be the "sonic signature" since they are the first component the analog transits before hitting the amp section.
On the speakers, re-cap after 35 years seems mandatory, after that there is the question of replacing the diaphragms (phenolic for titanium or other metal), magic crossovers I'm not convinced so far. Not sold on modding the cabinets either.......... it would be less trouble to design and build some speakers from scratch like the Cornscalas, the sw from the project is readily available, but there is always the reality of "how do they sound" which PK was a master at optimizing for the components and cost aka declining marginal returns.
If everything is working properly, the biggest bang for the buck with the least time and effort is a decent EQ with programmable settings and pre- programmed settings.
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Honestly, I don't know what the artist/producer/engineer wanted the music to sound like.
For example Led Zeppelin used recording techniques that I despise and I almost can't listen to them without some sort of adjustment. BUT they are legendary! Worked for them, doesn't work for me.
Side note: I didn't like them when I could have seen them in the early 70s, and no matter how much I try I can't make myself like them now.
About every ten years I try to like them and fail.
The Mastering Engineers have to get the sign off from the performers for the final cuts on the music, so if the artist is deaf or has severe hearing loss you can frequently hear it on the LP, ridiculous high treble etc.
There is also Loudness Wars which adds 12db noise and kills fidelity
There is also quantization error which sounds increasingly metallic as the bit rates go down
Psycho Acoustics added to the re-mastering; and for the low bit rate market mastering adds tons of hiss and other noise to mask just how bad low bit rate sounds over a $1 dac and $2 ear buds. The target market for a lot of the music.
Bass Boost for the kids is one more way the re-masters butcher the music for low bit rate playback.
And in some cases, bands that sounded great to us when we first heard them years ago, actually suck when played on a reasonably accurate sound system and no amount of adjustments can make them play better on the recording. GIGO
Thoughtful remastering like the Louis Armstrong 20th Century Masters, can bring the music back to life and subtract out much of the noise hiss and clicks. I have been told that the other re-masters from this collection are equally thoughtful. Most re-masters releases actually sound noticeably worse than the originals as they add 12db of noise, kill the fidelity, bass boost and add hiss and sound effects to mask the limits of low bit rate.
Back to EQ
For me, yes sounds good is the goal.
To see how I am doing, I like to listen to female voice and acoustic instruments. Girl and a Piano usually works well. Both peak out the performance on the gear, piano strikes are very demanding on amps, any blurring will show up instantly on female vocal.
If it's a good recording, it should sound natural and clear as a Bell. Karen Carpenter sounds liquid on so many of her recordings and is the Gold Standard ( for me) when it comes to female vocals. Ronstadt is on the same level, but Carpenter noses her at the finish line. Noemi Wolfs, Nancy Sinatra (who I use to think was just Franks daughter) and some of Poe's tracks are excellent. Dianna Ross is stellar, but I don't think there are any Capella recordings or acoustic with just a piano at her peak.
Wolfs early am radio promo for their LP roll out and concerts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Bs09twUmg&index=6&list=PLgugWBANrQyU39SWyIM6sCIJWo-A3GBlD
Poe and piano, I've actually listened to her on showroom systems where her voice almost disappears completely.
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The room and the gear always need EQ, the question is how to do it.
The auction site has tons of vintage ones for not much money.
In the newer ones, some like dbx, beringer has bang for the buck but has to be modded for heat, there are others.
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Depends on the features you want.
Auto start and drop
Auto pick up
Manual Start and drop and auto pick up and off
Manual start and finish
Belt vs direct drive
How the arm is mounted, gimble
How tracking and weight are adjusted, and how accurate.
Weight of the platter, aka flywheel
Dust cover, hinged or not
etc
etc.
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You can pick up an excellent condition used totl surround receiver, preferably THX certified, for whatever you feel like paying off of Craigslist.
Read the reviews on the units that catch your eye and check for comments on the forums, just search on Google with the model info AVS will probably pop.
Pioneer Elite, Yamaha and the TOTL Sonys come to mind.
This gets you a class AB integrated with all of the decoders and interfaces for a couple of hundred dollars, you can set them up to run as stereos.....2.0, 2.1, 2.2.
My Mac, Yamaha MX amps and Pioneer Elite AVRs are all dead quite on full volume with no music.
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I had the gains turned way up on my amp which was causing the hum to be more noticeable....now that Ive turned them down its not as noticeable.
Its still not "black noise"
Hum is typically a grounding problem, at least on solid state it is.
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The best deals in amps are the used Surround Receivers, some costing thousands of dollars new with THX certifications and clean powerful AB amp sections. Yamaha, Pioneer Elite and the TOTL Sonys come to mind, read the reviews and then go on the hunt.
You can pretty much name the price for used ones on Craigslist especially totl units without HDMI interfaces.
Also included are the DAC and Decoder Chips sets for every format, SN may be in the 120db range.
Also almost every connector is supported.
Check the manuals, but most good ones can be configured to run as stereos and dowmix 5.1 and 7/1 to 2.0 or 2.1.
There is no shortage of good stand alone phono pre amps, Emo has a good one for about $140.
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If the only goal is to max the bass, on the floor in the corner.
If you want the horn, where the angles sing, at ear level, and improved bass.......... it's on a table in the corner.
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My thinking has evolved quite a bit on this topic.
I ran downmix out to my LaScalas for years after I discovered it sounded better than running stereo off of a DVD into my Mac gear (which usually sounds good with almost anything).
If I put my best stuff together, it would probably be the Elite as a pre amp feeding the venerable Mac MC 2205; feeding the LaScalas. This would yield the best connectivity, support for all formats and best SN and THD.
After sampling a pair of MC-30s with a surround pre amp, I would run a tube amp with a surround pre amp. for the reasons stated above.
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If used for multiple inputs and decoding use a surround processor for the pre-amp
as this is the 2 channel area, I'd guess he won't need decoding and signal processing.
Hmmm
I down-mix DTS to stereo, and I decode the CDs to stereo using a DAC which is integral to the surround receiver.
My surround receivers support using only two speakers.
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I located the link to PWK's report about putting loudspeakers on open-legged stands or pulling them out of the corners of the room:
https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_id=53973
Chris
So put it on a table and put it in the corner?
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Two thoughts:
If used for multiple inputs and decoding use a surround processor for the pre-amp
If used for one source use a pot switch as the volume control.
Emo makes one with a poor quality switch for $50, or build you own with a totl pot for $20.
Either way better signal in is better signal out.
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Why use a tube pre-amp at all?
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Buy two Ikea end tables in black for $9 ea, forget the model number......
See how it sounds.
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A few thoughts on the tech.
Class D is gaining acceptance with the manufacturers of "high end" gear.
If the Reel to Reel guys are successfully transferring the masters to Reel at it's highest speed setting, tape may be the highest resolution sound available outside of the Mastering Room.
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Oh yea, I forgot...there was a fully restored Pioneer SX-1980 receiver (basically the Holy Grail) powering a pair of Altec Speakers that had been rescued from Les Paul's recording studio....all for sale. My hands were shaking so bad, I couldn't take a photo....
I spent a couple of hours listening to the 820c Altecs that you are referring to, the repair shop out in Rockford is the owner, nice guys. I was very impressed with the Altecs when I heard them a couple of years ago.
So much gear, so little space to put it in.
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Attended the show Friday for 8 hours.
These are really just my impressions since a show like this is anything but a controlled environment.
Friday, the first day the show was well attended, but still plenty of seating in the rooms on the second to fourth floors where there were lots and lots of vendors most sharing room, ex an amp company with a speaker company with a cable company etc. We started in the basement and worked our way up, so only saw half of the ground floor and half of one of the upper floors
* We moved at a pretty good pace and were only able to see or hear about 40% or less of the rooms.
* We did not see any radical new technology that is going to change everything like the intro of the CD.
* The DAC makers are coming to terms with the fact that they are making a data-com device and a decoder so the implementations are now at least aware of what the questions are. Some of the more expensive ones were sporting larger LCD displays. I like knobs, dials, lights, meters, bouncing bar graphs etc........so if they just added large knobs on the units they would really have something. Lampizator from Poland was there with his tube DAC.
* Analog is definitely hot, lots of vinyl, in addition there was one re-builder demoing his rebuilt TASCAM aka Teak Industrial reel to reel decks that sounded pretty darn good. He states that there are now 7 companies selling new tape (France) copied from analog masters ( probably copied digitally at really high sampling and bit depth to what ever they store the masters on) . The Tascams mfg til 2002 look and sound great. Plus lights, meters, knobs, switches and reels spinning.........United Home Audio Wash DC area is the tape deck guy. If you have a spare $7K laying around for his basic unit it may be worth pulling the trigger, I think he has something.
* EMO aka Emotiva had a large trade show like space with nice displays and layout, from a trade show perspective the best that I saw. They were demoing their new surround Processor with some recent movie clips in a mini theater I think using their powered line of monitors (Adam look alikes) that lack the punch for a theater....... Their new surround processor, from a glance, has a pretty good layout and is assembled in the US in Nashville. They are marking it as upgradable, a lot of the new stuff the boards.... loads of SMT ASICs and Processors, they probably have to be field swappable..... the connectors and ribbon cables are a good idea in this respect.
* Tons of tube gear, again given the controlled and totally uncontrolled nature of the show it's hard to say how anything sounds exactly unless there is obviously something wrong. All of the tube topologies were there, so if you have your fav tube amp design, there were plenty of choices. If you were really interested in dropping some coin, bring you content and make an appointment with someone who knows they are there to sell gear and return either before or after the show starts.
* Can you drop $250,000 on Bauhaus Design sterile looking system with almost no: lights, knobs, dials, buttons, bar graphs, or meters that may or may not sound better than a $20K system........almost certainly.
* Either because of hearing loss or Psycho Acoustics, a lot of the demos were too loud. The reel to reel guy got it right as did a few others.
* Classic Audio Loudspeakers Brighton MI., had nice large JBL Harstfiled reproductions with his field coil speakers plus his own 4 way all wood speakers on demo with lots of tube stuff and outboard power supplies. My bias is towards big speakers, classic proven design even better. His stuff at 2 watts will take your head off. Also very accommodating if you have your own music, my impression is this guy sells lots of gear, deservedly so. This was one of the larger shared spaces in the basement. Very open........... very accommodating. This guy and his co exhibitors are Pros and business people.
* Legacy out of Springfiled IL had a large room on the Ground Floor, their large towers that they had going are definitely a winner, if I understood correctly the speakers are matched with an EQ and an amp package that is approx $40K. If you had the coin you would be very happy.
* Volti of Maine, soon to be Volti of Nashville area also on the ground floor had their large speakers at approx $20K a pair running, another definitely horn-loaded-winner, not short on wooden looks either. I'm guessing they will take your head off at 2W.
* The Ear Gear room ground floor worth a visit, the Orthodynamics are red hot apparently, the guy that mods the Japanese Orthos has his own all new product at $1500 that compared to everything else in the space may be the winner for sound and weight. The Shciit TOTL sp and Woo amps he was demoing with were both very impressive, if I had to take one it would be the Woo. Worth a listen.
My two cents: If I were writing the checks..... I would probably take home the Volti's ( perhaps a reinforcement of my decision to buy La Scalas 35 years ago) I thought they sounded very very smooth and clean good relative price performance. In the amps dept, now that I've heard the venerable Mac MC 30s, something less than 50W for simplicity, not sure I could name a new vendor without lots more listens. Any good turntable, I believe declining marginal returns set in quickly with TTs, definitely a reel to reel too many lights and moving parts to be ignored, DACs any competent design between $500 and $1000 is probably sufficient the chip guys may have hit a competence plateau..... though Lampizator says not all of the big 5 chip sets work well...... pops clicks etc like anything digital error handling, clocking and recovery and failures sort out the men from the boys. Cables, for me 10GA is plenty of copper or other metals.
For me: Main system:
Horn loaded speakers, TT, reel to reel, DAC, 10GA copper cables. 30-50 watt tube amp with SS or surround processor front end.
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Just returned from Axpona, toured around with opusk2k9
Definitely worth the $25, you probably need a full 2 days to see everything.
I can't say that there was anything radically new like the first CD.
This is my first one of these, I am accustomed to having everything in a large hall, but with 200 stereos blasting it might be a bit confusing.
I may do a write up on my impressions.
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I'm likely going to the show.
Which day(s) are you going? I might take Friday off and go to the show.
Beat the rush??
How busy does it get???
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I'm likely going to the show.
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I don't recommend these spade adapters. After two days hooked up one broke clean off at the screw connection. They are pot metal. Good idea, but........... Went with crimp/solder spades.
Agree!
HELP! Sansui AU 717 + Equalizer
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
Jumping over the out connects to the in on the EQ and the out on the EQ connects to the IN on the Sansui cabling issue.
Wire the EQ as Tape One, this way you can select and deselect it at will to compare if you like the EQ better than no EQ, I do this all the time.
I don't know the Sansui, but Rec out and listen allow for lots of options if you have lots of devices, at least on all of my pre amps.
Good luck.