Barmitag

I know this may seem long, but let me preface this with; This is my opinion, I can very well be wrong, I’m no internet hero. Better is an opinion. Just because you can hear it, doesn’t mean I can, and just because I can, doesn’t mean you can. And more importantly, just because one of us thinks we can, doesn’t mean we really can, or can repeatabley. And just because we can’t repeatably, doesn’t mean it doesn’t make a difference you can hear… sometimes. Less of a loss is usually better, but how much of the loss can have an affect on the actual audio range, how much of a loss can anyone hear, how much can most people hear, and how much can I hear, is another thing altogether Some people may actually like the effects of a loss. Just because something makes a difference in the radio frequencies etc, doesn’t mean it will in the audio frequencies, and at the distances and wire guages we use. Different, doesn’t mean better. A better high end for eg, can actually mean a lesser low end. And most importantly, most people think they have great hearing, because they can hear everything that they can hear, duh. No one thinks they have a hearing problem until the doctor says so, and even then, they argue with him. So… I’m setting up for a new Home Theater, and decided to use a #14x4 conductor speaker wire, basically as the #14x4 available to me, was the only in-wall rated wire I could get, I couldn’t get 2x12, and besides, two #14s are less resistance with more current capacity then one #12. So my plan, red and white together at both ends, and black and green at both ends… Immediately I get “Are you going to bi-wire it? It’s better you know…” So I ask them, “Can YOU actually say that you can hear a difference?” and I get a no. I always got a no (the guys in the shops know I will challenge them to put it to the test). But if it’s even supposedly better, even if I can’t hear it, I already have the wire to do it, it’s no more work, and no more money, I’m curious. And why not? (Sadly there’s way too much of that in audio though, because then people justifying why the did it, “Oh yeah, it’s better, I didn’t waste my time and money, nope, you just don’t have a dogs ears like I do”). So I started looking into it, and I’m not finding a lot of people with valid sounding answers. Note that a lot of audiophiles have zero electrical/electronic knowledge, education and experience and are just repeating what they’re heard parroted around by others who really don’t know either, and may times these rumors have been so polished by so many people, they sound pretty convincing. Like the Kennedy theories and Bush/Iraq war theories… And worse, the vast majority of salesmen who have zero real electrical/electronic training and knowledge, are hearing the same rumors, and want to make a buck… and I’m not even including the guys who are just trying to rip you off, try to sell you the “better” wire. Note also that most low end speakers can't be bi-wired, most mid to fairly hi end stuff can... but all the ridiculous (to me anyway) stuff doesn't seem to be. So on to the actual Wiring: Non Bi-Wire; If I have a long run of four identical wires, with, say 2 ohms resistance each (just for easy numbers, it won’t be that high, unless it’s nearly a thousand feet), that’s 8 ohms resistance in wire, say. If I connect them as two pairs like I plan, those 8 ohms of wire, become two pair of 1 ohm each, (2 ohms in parallel is 1ohm, times 2 for each length). So one + wire (a pair) to the speaker is one ohm, and the - wire with the other pair at one ohm, making only two ohms in wire. Also, as we all know, the vast majority of power goes to the lower frequencies (lets say 70%), which means you’ll be able to push through 70% of the capacity of all four wires, that’s a lot of potential current. Capacitance and reactance will only be across the now two differing conductors. With Bi-Wire, I’ve got four wires, pairs only connected at one end, so I’ll have all 8 ohms of wire resistance in-line, (instead of 2! Four times the resistance.), which will affect the amp, (the damping factor will drop etc). If 70% of the current is low end, it’s now only able to run down two #14 wires, instead of two pairs of #14. I’ll have capacitance and reactance across all four wires (in a four conductor cable, evenly spaced, which is worse then two separate pairs apart), all ways… 1 to 2, 1 to 3, 1 to 4, 2 to 1, 2 to 3, 3 to 4 etc… So my guess at best, is the extra resistance in the wire will isolate the woofers voltage drop due to impedance shifts from the tweeter, more of a voltage device, keeping it’s voltage a bit more steady, but at a huge deficit to the woofer… So when Soundstage in 1998 said: "There should (notice they said should) be more clarity and detail to the midrange and high frequencies. Often the bass becomes less fat in nature, becoming both a bit faster and tighter. Focus and staging should improve nicely as well. You may notice less congestion in dynamic or complex passages. In all, this is a very effective and desirable improvement and only requires the investment in a second set of speaker cables," it kind of makes sense, you’ve lost bottom end (and power), which will clean up your top end (maybe a touch, maybe), less lows make it less muddy (if you have it set that way), and that gives the illusion of faster tighter bass. Now what it does at the crossover… is another thing altogether… But basically, anyone (and I will when I’m setup) with a bi-wired setup, can easily use a pair of banana plugs to short out the + to + , and – to – at the speaker and see if they hear a difference… but I doubt it, and if they do, it’s more a loss of bottom making the top stand out more thing. IMHO and I can be wrong.

Many people want a one button solution to turning everything on and off, and that does it... but if he's doing it the way I think he is (and I may be wrong... it won't hurt the amp... if that's the original question), but if he's got some serious gear or lots of gear on the same bar, he can burn out the switch and/or switching in his power bar or surge unit. As far as your gear is concerned, it is very much like a power outage,.. (though a power outage can come back on with all kinds of high voltage spikes that your surge suppressor should hopefully eat up). For your switch, it is very different. A closed (turned on) 15 amp switch/contact/relay can handle a tremendous amount of short term current), so a power outage on a closed switch doesn't matter. But as no switch/contact/relay is an absolutely 100% instant-on, there is a point as the switch closes that resistance goes from infinite (the switch off)... until like a microsecond before... that the switch goes from infinite to less then infinite... to a bit of resistance, to a bit less, to a bit less to the switch being fully on with the switch as close to zero resistance as it gets, So the high current in-rush is not only way more the the 15 amp switch can handle, plus added resistance, plus it also wants to arc across as the switch closes, and that also burns the contacts, making it worse for next time. It's an accumulative fault, it gets worse as you do it more often. So that's what triggering is for, like you're doing, a lot of stuff always has some things charged up in a standby mode (most of the time, only partially), so you don't have that huge in-rush current, that many times can temporarily dim your lights or even blow a 15 amp breaker, even if everything runs fine once it's on, depending on the gear of course. Have you ever un-plugged a vacuum cleaner when it's running and seen a big spark, amps are kind of like that, but back-wards, they do it when you plug them in hot, charging those big capacitors in the power supply. Power-on in-rush current is way more then you'll even draw when the unit is running. Of course you can turn your amps off with a trigger, turn off your preamp's actual power (not just standby), then shut off the power bar... (and you should do that when going on vacation and such). And to turn it on, do the reverse, but after turning on the power bar, wait a few seconds (1 or 2, that's all it takes, the in-rush current is really high, but really fast. Things charge up to almost full charge in a moment, then the current goes way down), then wait a second to turn on your preamp, and it's even better if your preamp starts from a powered off - standby mode, (though most don't seem to).

Originally surrounds were just for airy high end, crowd noises, bugs and real background stuff... yet everyday there seems to be more and more real sounds, full tone gun shots and cars driving by to full voices and sounds that start at the rear...

Agreed. That wasn't the original question. See first post. Sorry, but that's how I read; "Question is .....the amps power will be constantly in the ON position and will be turned on and off by cutting the power to the surge protector naturally."

No, I'm saying turning your amp on and off with the rocker switch on a power bar will burn out the switch.

I am looking at the THX Ultra2 set up, my only problem is the sides. On one side of my seating area, I have an open wall into the next room, and the other is a stone fireplace. So I really can't use the KS525 side speakers, and even mounting them on the ceiling points them the wrong way, and of course they'd be sticking down. I'm thinking of using a pair of in-walls, in my ceiling (the in-ceiling speakers are too wide, my studs are just over 10 inches). And because they're horn tweeters designed as in-walls, I worry about high end dispersion when pointing down. I suppose they will be installed lengthwise (with me looking down the whole length of the speaker on the ceiling beside me). I asked Tech Support, and they pointed out the in-walls might be too heavy and to ask my dealer. My dealer is one of those "we can solve any problem with enough money" ...sadly... mine. Which in-walls would you guys recommend for this? The KL6502, KL6504, KL7800 or KS7800? And should I have the tweeter closest to me, or the woofer? I wonder if the KS-7800's tweeter set can be turned 90 degrees? The CDT 3800 in-ceiling would fit, has a movable tweeter and all, but would have a different voice then the THX speakers and are only rated for 50 watts, and I imagine the sides would be turned up louder then usual to make up for pointing down. Any ideas?

Speaking from an audio nut and electricians point of view, it many times is a big problem. You can easily burn out the contacts in a cheesy power bar, and even better ones don't like the surge of a serious power amp, or two... I've burned out many high end surge supressors with simply too much in-rush current (they're not designed for that, they're designed for phase to phase to ground in-rush current). Many decent power bars on up to full sized rack surge units, like Furmans, have "always on" plugs for that reason (among others, like DVRs etc). Your amp always has standby power when the trigger turns them on, so no mad in-rush current, the caps are charged (or at least partially so). If you're turning on a 60 watt stereo, who cares? But if you're turning on a quality high current multi channel amp... there's a mad in-rush current, and no soft start protection from the amp's power supply to soften the in-rush. Heck, even ceiling fans often burn out cheap light switches (you hear a popping sound as they die).

Turning it off shouldn't be a problem, turning it on can be. Many power amps have a huge surge when you turn them on, and add on the rest of your gear and the switches on many cheaper powerbars etc don't take that sudden in-rush of current very well... or even the relays on many surge supressing units. Just because it works for now, doesn't mean it will work very long (or with different gear).