NOSValves

TheEar I think I said "$1500 to $2000 worth of solid state"

Here's a link to the pictures I posted in another thread. Linkage

jazman I welcome your comments completely. I can't wait to see how your heresy's fare with the HF-81. I'm using Original Mullard EZ-81's that match perfectly and test well in the good with no leakage on my EICO 667 Tube Tester. I'm sure there is a problem with my 81 that is causing this harshness like I said before this is by no means a fair comparison of the Amps. If you do a search you will find a thread where I posted picture's of the rats nest of a wiring job someone did to the one I have and I'm sure that's where most of the problems will still be found. It needs a gutting and it will get it. What is the complete tube compliment your using jazzman ?? Craig

I not at all famliar with the current available new tube amp offerings. Mobile could fill you in much better than I could. I can tell you one thing for sure. Your not going to find any with LCD's on them thank god !!! Craig

cleaning the thread This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-26-2002 at 05:13 PM

matthew2 I will have to second Mobile's tube comments, Tubes play almost any music better than $1500 to $2000 worth of solid state. Here at my house we listen to every type of music you could name short of Classical. I have vintage klipsch and new klipsch speakers. They all sound incredible on tubes and I'm not talking high Dollar here I don't have a tube rig that I have over 225.00 in the purchase price and maybe $75 more in misc. Parts to bring them up to snuff. If you want quality sound on the cheap there's nothing that can touch integrated vintage tube amps. Craig This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-25-2002 at 08:41 PM

There no more buttons,bells and whistles This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-25-2002 at 08:15 PM

mobile your alway's looking for a reason to nit pic aren't ya . But thanks for the tip never noticed that button. This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-26-2002 at 04:53 PM

Yee of little faith ! This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-26-2002 at 05:05 PM

Mobile I'm not sure if you noticed I took the philips out and I'm using Amperex's out of my Scott tuner that test real close match. Craig This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-26-2002 at 05:06 PM

Well from what I have been told by other owner of Heresy's that a sub is almost a must if you like bass in the lower regions below 50. I think from what you have stated there must be something going wrong with this HF-81 which wouldn't surprise me at all. That's why I've refrain from using it from the beginning. When I first started listening to it this time I didn't use my Heresy's. I used a set of Fisher's that I use to test a Amp out before I put my Heresy's in harms way. There really not bad speakers but designed for the SS gear of the early 80's. The HF-81 was much less harsh with those speakers. But your going to hate me saying this my HH Scott SS amp from the early 70's sounds better with them (which isn't the case with my Scott's they sound better with the Fishers). With all the raves that others state about the 81 pretty much tells me there must be something wrong somewhere that is making it sound so harsh. In fact you mention sweet mid range and that hits the nail on the head. It seems to be missing most if not all of the mids range that it should have. Maybe this is a clue I need to chase down. Craig This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-26-2002 at 05:04 PM

Oh I'm not going to sell it. I going to fix it, Improve it and then if it still doesn't please me sell it. Have you ever heard the HF-81 on a pair of heresy's ?? Heresy's can be extremely harsh speakers. With out a sub there harsh to some extent on all my amps. But with my Sub and my 299 there nothing short of amazing. I've had a dozen people listen to my 299/Heresy combo and all they say is can we find me one !! I'm telling you I'm no expert on audio but ears are ears and my ears say I have a awesome setup with the 299/Heresy's. Again let me state that this could all be a mute point with the way my HF-81 was put together! It really needs a complete rebuild from scratch. Oh you didn't answer what companies those guy's are connected with ?? I'm curious maybe I'm buying from the wrong places. Craig This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-26-2002 at 05:04 PM

Mobile First off could you please relay which of two names relates to which company and I can tell you if I've bought from them. Also with your rather forwardness on all the various Audio related message boards I would expect them all to send you top notch choices. I was told by one of the dealers that his match sets aren't even match by him but at the factory !!! I don't know if that's one of the guy's you mentioned or not. Now I did as you requested and removed the Philips Jan tubes and used my stash Bugle boys. Now your going to hate hearing this but I'm really not all that impressed compared to my Scott's. This isn't really a fair comparison yet but I find with my Heresy's and a KSW-15 sub my HF-81 is nothing short of Harsh in the highs. But it does put out some awesome bass. I'm surprised that the 2 together don't seem to even out. I couldn't imagine in the current state the EICO is in spending hours listening to it. It would fatigue my ears. I gave a good listen with Fleetwood Mac the entire rumors CD. Then I switched to my 299 and instantly had to turn down the sub and it just sounded way smoother and pleasing to the Ears. What did surprise me in the slam effect of this little Amp it puts out some excellent tight bass much tighter than my 299. I think that is why it sounds so harsh with the heresy's my 222C which was modded to put out better base didn't sound as good as my 299 on the heresy's either. So as things stand now I'm going to have to say with my Heresy's and KSW-15 Sub the Scott 299 wins and its completely stock except new Cup Caps under the chassis of the same original Values(which wasn't the least bit needed and did nothing +/- for the amp). Also as I thought I would find the lower quality of the parts and layout of this amp causes lots of hums and hisses this could just be the hacked wiring job but I fixed most of that. Before you blame this on bad caps they all test fine or at least as good as my Scott's were when I received them. My Scott's were completely dead silent at full volume except on the Phono stages. Which all amp have hiss in these stages even brand new SS has it. Next I'm firing up some LP's and see how it does there. although this stage is extremely noisy. I want to make something absolutely clear this is by no means a final verdict just sharing the progress of a basket case example of a HF-81 that I purchased others may have great luck with better examples of these Amps. I also would like to add that the reviews that everyone has read were for units that were in good or great shape when the reviewers bought them or paid little to nothing for them. I wonder how they would feel if they paid the top dollar these Amps go for now ? Craig This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-26-2002 at 05:01 PM

Oh also I'm not saying that matching isn't important or that it can't be done. I'm saying that there are no dealers that do a proper job matching today's low quality tubes. They would have to run them hot/cold for a week or two to get them to settle to there semi constant state. Do you have a mutual conductance tube tester ? I do and I'm telling you that there idea of a matched set of tubes is real broad to say the least. Craig This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-26-2002 at 04:54 PM

Yea it does take some patience. I truely believe that I was born with this stuff in my blood ! I just never new it. My Dad's been working on Ham units for 45 years and I showed him everything that I did to my 222C and he had seen it before it was done. His response was "man you solder better than I do" LOL !!!!! It really didn't take that long I didn't remove all the connection's I just reheated them and added some fresh solder to insure there were no pesky cold joints. Well I'm off to give it a listen. I'll check my tube stash for something better than the phillips. The unit only had one mullard 12AU7 in it when I recieved it. Craig This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-26-2002 at 04:54 PM

Mdeneen Very well said you walked on the top fence wire very gracefully Craig This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-27-2002 at 02:15 PM

Well I was just about to take the snips to all the wiring and remove all the tube sockets. But the discussion else where on this forum made me just too curious to do that just yet. Although it is definitely happening yet this week. I went ahead and spent a few hours sorting out the rats nest from the previous hacker that seems to have installed modern signal wire in the amp. Why he did I will never know. To go to all that trouble and then make all the wire unequal length and do a solder job that looks like it was done with a blow torch I just can't make sense of it just doesn't fit into my personality LOL !! So I resoldered and traced all the wires to make sure they were in there proper position's in fact I resoldered every connection under the chassis. I also retentioned and cleaned all the tube sockets. I cleaned all the pots and switches. Then I installed all the Original Mullard 12AX7's and new Phillips Jan 12AU7's and a new set of JJ 6BQ5's. The weird channel problems are gone it now play's in stereo. How's it sound well can't say just yet its to late to turn it up. But it has a channel output Imbalance at low volume (no big deal I've dealt with that before). My first impression are that it does have a nice sound to it. But my listening is very limited. I may end up eating crow on this one . Mobile I hope your ears aren't ringing LOL !! I will give it a serious listen tomorrow and report back. Good night all Craig ------------------ (Music Work Shop) HH Scott 299 Amp HH Scott P87 Turn Table HH Scott Tube FM Tuner LT-110B Sony CD 5 DISC C315 Heresey 1985 Oil Walnut Klipsch KSW-15 Sub (HT and 2 Channel Room) HH Scott Tube Amp 222C Sony DE-975 AV Receiver Sony NS-900P DVD Syenrgy SF-2 mains KSC-C1 Center Channel KSW-15 Sub SS-1 Surrounds Promedia 5.1 for the PC This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-25-2002 at 03:28 AM

DizRotus I think we got a little off topic in your thread Sorry !!!! This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-27-2002 at 02:09 PM

Mark That would be awesome I hope you can make it. Let me know if you are that would push me to the edge and make me go. I'm not trying to make this into a battle here. But I can tell you first hand I've bought 2 quads of recommended brand "matched tubes" from a well recommended dealer and found that they weren't even close and change by the day. So matching is a crock. They would have to run them for literally weeks to get them to settle in to there more or less permanent state and especially the newer tubes that most of us chump change people are forced to use. So what I'm getting at is. In the current state of readily available tubes at affordable prices that we all have to suffer with any self biasing amp is running at less than optimum performance. The reason that Scott , EICO and others designed the self biasing and cathode biasing amps in the 50's and 60's was that you could run to any local drug store and buy top notch well matched Telefunken , Amperex's and USA branded tubes for next to nothing and it rendered bias not necessary or a frill that just added cost with little benefit(bean counter syndrome). Also I will beg to differ with you on the only tubes needing to be close to matching being the outputs. What exactly do you figure the 12AX7's or 12AU7's would do to the sound if they are poorly or grossly mismatched ?? I'm not saying they have to be perfect but they should be relatively close for both channel to sound sonically the same wouldn't you say ? Craig Oh and I don't take reviews from people I don't know who they are or what they base there opinion on to seriuosly and also one of the guys is just pimping his schematic selling sight and one of the other modified the bias circuit. You never know what people are basing there opinion on until you get a chance to get to know them. This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-27-2002 at 02:08 PM

Mobile I hear what your saying and don't have the ability to say if your right or wrong. That is why I have refrained from stating anything about the Sonics of the EICO because frankly I don't know !! The thing that makes me question that the EICO can best the sound of a Scott is pretty simple its almost impossible for a the EICO to ever fire on all its cylinders in stock form. It has no bias/balance adjustments to speak of at all now my 222c didn't either in its stock form (only balance). But that's not the case anymore and the sound difference from just being able to tweak the tubes into there perfect bias/balance state is incredible to say the least. The 299 comes with bias and balance adjustments stock. Now from my little understanding of these amps I believe that to get a EICO HF-81 to "fire on all cylinder" is nearly impossible in there stock form. The only way to do this would be to buy some real expensive matched quad of NOS output tubes (unless of coarse you are lucky enough to have bought one with all good matching originals) which after 40 years in not likely that they still match. so your not rising to the LIMA challenge ?? I'm sure that you know someone that will be there to let us compare are amps sounds and even give us a outside opinion. I'm curious myself . My 81 is going to take some serious repairs and won't be even close to stock when its done. I would bring my 299 which is stock except for changing out the Cup caps to new of the exact same values. I guess if all else fails I could rent a hotel room and just bring my Heresy's and ksw-15 sub if your up for the comparo job (as long as its not raining I would have to bubble wrap and box my speakers and haul them in the back of my Silverado ? Let me know Craig This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-27-2002 at 02:08 PM

mike stehr I'm holding my sonic Opinion for after I rewire it and see what it sounds like. In the state it was in when I received it you wouldn't want my opinion on the Sonics. The EICO is on my work bench right now getting ready to give it the once over. So it won't be to long and I'll have the Sonic opinion for you all. I'm at this time talking about the Quality of the parts and engineering of the amps. The Scotts are by far superior to the EICO and that is a fact. Also the phono stage in the Scott's is to die for. I wish I could get Mobile to listen to a fine tuned Scott and then I believe his Opinion would differ greatly. In fact I may be at the Lima gig this coming weekend and I think Mobile is attending. Wonder if there will be some speakers we could hook are 2 amps up to and compare and Vinyl would be a must. The thing I fear about Mobile comparison is that the Scotts he has auditioned may not have been in good working order. The scotts have a much more complex layout. For instance my Scott 299 has 5 multi section Can Capacitors on the Top of the unit and the EICO has 1. There are like 45 Coupling Caps in a Scott and maybe 10 in a EICO. The problem is that to achieve the sound that the Scott is designed to give is hard unless the Unit is really been gone thru and brought back to the way HH Scott engineered it. If any of you have issue 12 or 13 of VTV mag read what he has to say about the Scotts they are his Absolute favorite vintage integrated Amps and for good reason. Craig This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-27-2002 at 02:06 PM

DizRotus Your getting advise here from the best !!! Without MDeneen my HH Scott Amps wouldn't be the excellent amps that they are while they would work and sound better than most mid grade SS stuff they would have never reached there intended perfection. On the EICO front I wouldn't get to over board on those ! I bought one in need of serious repair just to get one cheap. I find that the over all quality of the EICO's parts are sub par compared to my Scott's. I'm not saying that there not nice Amps all I'm saying is that they are starting to get priced way above there worth because partially the demand that has come from this forum. So the point I'm trying to make is there are better option's than the EICO HF-81. Good luck and welcome a board Craig This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-27-2002 at 02:06 PM

Mobile You missed the point all together !!!! I was perfectly over whelmed with the sound of both of my Scott amps when I received them they blew my SS stuff away completely. But now after major digging and investigating and scratching my head ( thank god for MDeneen). I would put my Scott's against any vintage EL-84 or 7189 PP amp that is out there because from top to bottom there are electrically perfect period. If I was to just let them run they way they were they would of most likely played for months maybe years without a hitch. But then I can bet you money that I would of lost at the very least some pretty expensive tubes in the process. All I'm recommending is either check the unit out yourself,have a friend do it or pay to have it done. BUT HAVE IT DONE its worth the trouble and if necessary the money !! No one is trying to deter anyone from buying Vintage Amps here its quite the contrary. I'm just trying to make it clear that although these Amps may sound great you should see what they sound like dialed in and electrically Perfect its amazing. Craig ------------------ HH Scott Tube FM Tuner LT-110B HH Scott Tube Amp 222C HH Scott Turn Table P-87 Sony DE-975 AV Receiver Sony NS-900P DVD Sony CD 5 DISC C315 Syenrgy SF-2 mains KSC-C1 Center Channel KSW-15 Sub SS-1 Surrounds Promedia 5.1 for the PC This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-23-2002 at 02:22 AM

Actually it was pulled of the List Server. The forum doesn't have much back and forth discussion mostly people just drop in there and ask for help. The Scott regulars use the List server and the forum. Craig ------------------ HH Scott Tube FM Tuner LT-110B HH Scott Tube Amp 222C HH Scott Turn Table P-87 Sony DE-975 AV Receiver Sony NS-900P DVD Sony CD 5 DISC C315 Syenrgy SF-2 mains KSC-C1 Center Channel KSW-15 Sub SS-1 Surrounds Promedia 5.1 for the PC

edster00 Don't hessitate to take a look at the Scotts that are all over ebay you won't regret it. "When there firing on all cylinders" they are awesome and can't say for sure just yet but I bet they are as good or better then the EICO. NOS440----->> ducking Chris I can tell you first hand that Bias means everything when it comes to getting the best sound out of any tube Amp. The difference in my Scott amps is nothing short of amazing after Mdeneen helped me work out the Bias adjustments. ------------------ HH Scott Tube FM Tuner LT-110B HH Scott Tube Amp 222C HH Scott Turn Table P-87 Sony DE-975 AV Receiver Sony NS-900P DVD Sony CD 5 DISC C315 Syenrgy SF-2 mains KSC-C1 Center Channel KSW-15 Sub SS-1 Surrounds Promedia 5.1 for the PC This message has been edited by NOS440 on 03-28-2002 at 01:34 PM