RoboKlipsch
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Posts posted by RoboKlipsch
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On 3/4/2019 at 9:36 AM, RNJOKER said:
Can you elaborate on “time align”?
Subs are a certain distance from where you sit. Your avr autocalibration typically sets up the distance of your speakers and sub.
When you have more than 1 sub, they often have to be fine tuned to integrate them for best results as even an avr with 2 sub inputs often cant autocalibrate 2 subs properly. Usually the most critical factor is where you place them...nothing influences response more tr han puttimg the subs in good spots.
2nd is distance, if they are different distances this should be incorporated in setup...with external amps with dsp there are actually distance settings. For most commercial subs they have a phase option which is similar and likely what you need to adjust to make them work together constructively.
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A few things.....
subs. one sub allows a very good sound in one place in the room, other places (say the seat next to that main spot) will not. when you add a 2nd sub, you greatly improve seat to seat consistency. some use multiples to provide higher spl
treatment. position of treatments matters ONLY with regards to absorbing near reflections...i.e. in most rooms treating where the front three are bouncing off walls is very key to "unsmearing" the sound field.
when it comes to bass traps (properly called broadband absorbers) if they are in the room they are equally effective...thus putting big bass traps in the back will have equal effect to the front no matter their exact distance. i have 18 bass traps in my small room! and another 20 or so absorbing early reflections (so many to cover my front wall and even absorb the surround reflections. yes i have them on the ceiling...but most dont go there). i built my own panels as its cheap and easy. about 1/3 the cost of buying them.
its a long explanation i will skip...but bass frequencies are huge wavelengths. your goal with treatment should be to reduce early reflections of your mains, and some bass traps which combined with the other panels will work to lower and make more consistent the decay times in your room.
very few understand decay times...the reason many rooms sound bad when loud is because they have resonances that make certain frequencies ring way too long. also, bass hangs around in a room too long, and the traps reduce that decay time in a big way. while that may seem like it absorbs your bass, in fact it does but only in a way to smooth out frequencies that resonate too much. my overall decrease in spl was maybe 2db...and the result is so clear i will never have a home without at least one treated theater space.
treating a room this way results in a WOW in how clear music is, and dialog from the center channel and
a WOW in hearing bass that never creates boomy scares, instead it perfectly follows the recording. bass gets "tighter"
want cheap good subs and willing to build or buy? avsforum has a vbbs thread,and a $29 jbl sub thread. and a martysub thread, all easy diy options. most are also for sale used in classifieds. but yes, music will benefit on the bottom end, especially if you listen toanything with hard beats.
movies prefer a sub that can go down to at least 20hz with authority
music benefits from punch provided by designs tuned higher and mains with large woofers
they are somewhat interchangeable and somewhat a tradeoff for each other
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21 hours ago, Schu said:
Not bluray, but I just watched Apollo 11 in iMax... outrageously good 70mm film
have you seen first man and if so, can you compare them for me please?
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Subs are never too big or capable performace-wise -- they can be dialed down
bigger subs - driver and box - provides deeper extension and/or require LESS power
the room and aesthetics are the true limits.
what is reasonable? Any 15 or 18" ported sub with good capabilities
2 is better, not for volume, for seat to seat consistency
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screens are usually picked to match the player...i.e the brightness of your projector provides direction as to whether a brighter or grayer screen is selected, as is how you watch i.e. always dark, lit room, etc
projectorcentral.com is a great resource
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On 3/3/2019 at 6:41 PM, themeuge said:
I currently have a pair of old RB-5IIs as part of a 5.1 all-klipsch setup. These are placed on shelves of a wooden built-in that houses my TV, center and front speakers. The RB-5IIs have a front facing port that can breathe. I was thinking of upgrading to the RP-600m, but I am worried that the rear-facing port would muddy the noise or create vibration because it faces an enclosed space. Does anyone have any insight or advice?
They need a few inches behind to allow ths port to breathe, about 3 or 4 inches minimum.
very unlikely it colors your sound --
the colorization would come from the cabinet itslef, not the port. so if you have bookshelf speakers on those shelves now expect no worse than current imo. i have the 160ms, version before the 600
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Loud and deep are very different characteristics
You have to time align subs in any room to get the most out of them.
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On 3/3/2019 at 7:13 AM, RNJOKER said:
Hi everyone! I’ve been going trough different forums and I’ve been unable to find the answer. I recently bought a Klipsch r-115sw. I’d like to use 2 subs but I cannot afford a 2nd 115sw. I currently am using a r-120sw with the 115sw. Am I able to use these two different sized subwoofers together since they are both Klipsch? Or will it mess up the sound of the bass since they have different frequencies?
thanks for your responses
This is no issue at all.
Blend them together, its a very simple situation for you...same brand, similar size drivers, both ported.
Willands example is much more challenging as he has sealed and ported in that setup and that makes for some challenges especially down low. But even that can be done and done very well.
I have 4 subs and 2 mbms in one theater, with 4 more subs coming in a week or 2. At that point i will have 10", 12", 15" and 18" drivers in both ported and sealed configs. And it will play down flat to under 10hz and play reference levels + across all the seats with great consistency. It does that now pretty much 😀
Subs are the one area where mixing and matching can work and work well. Mains are much more important to match timbre.
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My own experience started much like yours, 20 years listening to Bose then upgrades!
Bigger mains would give you a little more punch but not much else.
The 2 things to consider are room treatments and bigger subs.
Treating the room has an ROI off the chart. Few do it, but those that do, understand. You can upgrade 50x and never achieve the benefits of some good basic room treatments.
Bigger subs will dig deeper, get you down to 20hz or even 10hz if you want to get there.
No need for outboard amps, speaker upgrades or anything else yet imo.
Treat the room, then reassess. I could show you graphs of treating a room but that does little to let you HEAR that difference.
Decay times are tamed and made more uniform...giving you a much clearer, less boomy experience. One of my theaters easily blows away any theater and its just a bunch of work or money (diy or buy them for 3 or 4x).
Ask about anything you want help or direction with. 👍
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Bohemian Rhapsody
Now that im old enough to have grown up through bands now considered ancient (lol) it was a fun to relive Queen in an especially nicely amped up movie.
Skipping most of the old rock band tropes (i.e. dwelling on sex, drugs, addiction, snobbery) the movie focused solely on the music, its magic and the band that understood the audience had a roll to play.
An interesting dichotomy of avoiding dwelling on homosexuality and trans issues it instead highlights their unrepentant purpose to be who they truly were.
Most of the history was handled accurately. As a fan, i was only disappointed once, in a very small way.
One of the great highlights of Queens career was writing the soundtrack for Highlander, a fun and exciting movie from long ago that spawned many sequels.
In the movie, they play Who Wants To Live Forever in the theme of AIDS, which was dramatic but false. Although it can be transferred to that cause, it was a very fun, exciting movie track (and full soundtrack) that spoke only to the movies themes. But this is quite minor.
Rami who played Freddy was fantastic, a revelation of acting and so well directed he won an Oscar, and I cant say i was surprised.
A movie that fans and non fans can borh like, a moving, fun and hard rocking experience.
3 solid stars, 1 of which was earned just by the casting choices, so well done!
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First Man
Ocassionally, often when i post here, i come across a movie that sounded so good, yet was executed so badly i find it almost hard to fathom they actually released it.
First man is a movie that dupes the viewer...first man means first on the moon, right? Well it is actually a reference to his family life....which was a total disaster of worry, heartbreak and somber sullenness.
If armstrong ever was happy, it certainly never showed in this movie. And i dont blame gosling, hes a good actor put into a horrifying badly executed script.
Even the landing wasnt very exciting. Only the sense of how small the moons surface was made for an errie feel.
I thought often of apollo 13, and how inspiring it was, how exciting. This movie was honestly one of the most depressing ive seen, and ive seen a lot of movies!
I see a movie called apollo 11 is coming out, i only hope it is an inspiring film.
This movie is truly ZERO stars. Unredemptive in every way, a 2 hr movie you will hate. I had to fast forward after about 75min as it became unbearable, then the landing was still weakly done.
Ugh! It made Split look good, which is hard to do.
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On 2/24/2019 at 2:25 PM, MoparBob said:
Pink Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon BluRay DTS 5.1. OK OK I know it's only music and no video but dam It sounded great in a dark room. The wife and I just and went with the ride. All I can say for folks that say music is for only 2ch. have you ever tried it . Come on try it you will like it then you can put your horse and buggy away.
I am a huge fan of all things Floyd! 5.1 is quite a better experience imo!
Run, rabbit, run
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One of the most popular choices in the diy world are coaxials, which put the tweeter in the center of the woofer and disperse sound well in a 360 fashion.
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I have 2 15inch subs in diysg 4cft net ported boxes and yes they work perfectly. Only because the particular drivers work well in 4cft though...
The marty sub concept is not a rigid set of parameters, it was in fact a brillant thread offering a thorough account of exactly how to build a great ported sub.
Any part of the design can be modified. If you have existing 15s switching to ported is just that, you are not restricted to existing designs...but yes the benefit is being confident those particular builds WILL result in success.
Originally 15s were envisioned as an option as LTD says, but SI used to offer an 18 with a compliant enough suspension to work in a small box about 5cft net.
As always the driver is key...i.e. a 15in ultimax does not want a 4cft ported box....too small. It wants 6cft.
So if you have the ultimax, go bigger. Ltd is a sub designer and a pro so his words should be valued above mine but i am correct you want 6cft for a umax15 (minimum, which is why he says minimarty, which is about 10cft)....4cft for a ultimax12, 6 for a 15 and ar least 8 for an 18 --- ultimax.
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MLO i think mentioned that they are releasing a newer or different version of the r115sw
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I think you were referencing throw distance, which shouldnt really come into play.
More important is the spacing between your speakers i.e. spread, make sure your angles are good.
As a room gets smaller it benefits more and more from room treatments. Imagine an open air music venue and then start imagining walls added that get closer and closer...as they get closer the absorption of the near reflections becomes more important.
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im personally disgusted with klipsch's sad and pathetic efforts to obscure the lines of speakers and rearranging the item #s for no good reason.
first reference was obscured by calling the cheaper line reference, after what 20 yrs of reference meaning reference?
this latest go around i cant even tell if anything was changed...but the item #s again are obscured for no good purpose except to sow confusion and almost deceive customers into buying whatever they want them to buy
im a big fan of the speakers
im beyond disgusted with klipsch marketing and their inability to realize that the scam they are running is hurting their own brand
wtf would Paul Klipsch say about this marketing b.s.? nothing good
i reco buying the previous lines simply because used klipsch is way cheap compared to the crazy markup of the latest line
again to clarify...i love the speakers and technology and am growing to hate the marketing team to the point i cant even pay attention
wtf is a 5002? why do i have to learn a brand new numbering system for what are the same speakers? oops i nswered my own question
i do wish klipsch interacted with us here
you ladies and gents are screwing up a great brand, purely through marketing gaffes...big ones
ask us before you keep going down this road (my 2c)
who likes klipsch more than the forum participants?
i realize z larent company bought klipsch and likely nobody from old klipsch mzrketing can say what i just said for fear of being fired by a big corporation...but i repeat...everybody who values klipsch sees this game being played and are not impressed.
i digress, as i often do.
i like the rp250c personally and a 450c for really big rooms
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4 hours ago, wvu80 said:
I just saw your post. Sorry for the long delay in replying.
No, I don't have a mic. So you think I should get one, or can I copy someone else's settings? I know the Umax 15's have better specs than the Reference 15 but the Ref15 is pretty much plug and play with the Yung 500 watt plate amp w/bass boost.
And yes the PEQ is easy as pie to set. I just don't have a good understanding of what I'm trying to accomplish with the sound. I've not been happy with any of the settings, I feel like there is more performance to be had. I've got dual subs in a small room, that can't be good as there is nowhere for the sound to open up.
Here's the rub --
An auto correction system like audyssey or ypao help almost any response be flatter BUT
They dont do a good job of integrating multiple subs...they do a good job of improving the frequency response curve of what they are given. Even when you have 2 sub inputs it still doesnt get it right in many cases.
When you buy a microphone... and Yes you spend enough time on the forums to warrant one...it will open your eyes and ears to a much better ecperience.
When someone says I cant move the subs they have to be here and here it invariably is a case where the person does not measure. Because if they did, they would move the couch a foot, the table over a bit, try stuffing it over there by that end table....etc. because now you want a truly flat response at least to REALLY understand what it sounds like...then tweak it to your tastes.
Finding the best sub positions for many of us is a Quest, with a capital Q because it truly goes on for a long time. Dialing them in mixes science and a bit of guessing/art and is very fun...but all of it requires a microphone.
Then it dawns on you that you spent XXX hours on subs...and hey the microphone can measure the mains too, and are they in the best spots,,,,,,🙉
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On 1/2/2019 at 2:36 PM, Cody_Mack said:
In the sealed cabinet? I am looking for most musical first...
Rick
Most often people will use a Low Shelf filter with a sealed sub, or sometimes just boost at say 20 or 25hz depending upon the sub capability.
Sensitivity matters, as reference is usually higher than ultimax, but then xmax also matters and the additional xmax is especially helpful in a sealed sub so that boost down low doesnt push past the drivers capability.
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Based on your tests I think where you have them positioned in the room is causing problems. Mcacc is only looking at the response and deciding what it can work with.
Move the fronts back towards the wall some or closer to corners it will bring them alive in the bass area.
I had the predecessor and it was good down to 30hz nicely. Those have plenty of bass they are not positioned right is my best guess.
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On 10/26/2018 at 2:30 PM, Estatix said:
Hey guys I have a question regarding those two subs. My current setup is
Fronts: 2 rf-82ii
Center: rc-62ii
Surrounds: 4 klipsch CDT-5800-C II in ceiling
Sub: 1 r115sw
Receiver: denon s920w but in the process of getting marantz 6012 or 7012
I'm trying to decide which sub I want. I can get another r115sw or a mint and barely used rsw15 that my friend has. He only used it for a year then put it in storage in the original box. The grills aren't even opened yet. I need your guys help! They are both the same price around 850.
This is an interesting question
your friend is pricing the rsw15 fairly if he really only used it for a year. they are highly sought after. he can get 850 if it has truly been hardly used.
there are several reasons to go another way. 1st you have a 115sw. there is no easier and better integration than matching subs.
the 115sw has better extension down low.
the rsw series is becoming a legacy series, where someone with a great old setup will look to replace them and wants a matching replacement sub. when subs get old they often fail, and rsws that have been used all the time since their release are failing a lot...your friends shouldnt since it has been used minimally. but age matters with electronic amps
in my view its an easy call get matching subs and advise your friend to sell his rsw while the selling is still good. speakers and subs are different...while a 20yo speaker is fine a 20yo amp is not.
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On 11/19/2018 at 1:07 PM, wvu80 said:
I built the Reference 15 3 cuft sealed sub with the HO driver and a Yung plate amp500 watt /bass boost . It's fantastic with my CF-4's, very musical, lots of tactile response without having to crank it up. It blends very well.
I recently built a couple of Umax 15's sealed 3 cuft using an Inuke 3000dsp. I have a two Inukes so I might go with one per sub but right now both sound good with the single Inuke. I think the Umax 15 sound is more customizable using the DSP.
I don't yet have the DSP figured out but for my money the Reference 15 is the clear winner right now.
(this is the Umax 15, Inukes are in silver. Also pictured CF-4, Onk 717 and Emotiva XPA-5. A DIY 15" is on top of the CF-4)
Hey wvu80!
Great to see your builds.
Those Ultimax 15s can be tuned to easily beat the Reference woofers.
Do you have a measurement mic? With one (black Friday sales) it is easy to get an incredible response by manipulating the PEQ.
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1 hour ago, SWL said:
That's interesting because in the past, adding bass traps on my front wall always degraded the sound in my room as well.
It's also interesting because a couple weeks ago I was just watching a video by an acoustics company (can't remember their name off hand) and the guy was saying that he recommended bass traps to be put on the front wall instead of the back wall because that's where most of the bass 'energy' is. He referred to a couple of Ethan Winers' pics and he had the bass traps on the front wall in the corner where it meets the ceiling. I might have to try that someday but really don't see it happening.....
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Bass traps are most effective in room corners but work anywhere.
I have them in corners, at the junction of floor and front wall, hanging as ceiling clouds, leaning agaist a wall etc.
Placement of thinner absorbers, such as 1" or 2" thick needs to be placed more carefully and in some cases in limited amounts
chris aludes to the real key. its hard to grasp absorbing bass and making it sound better.
bass decays slower in a room and by absorbing the critical midbass region it cleans up how it sounds
down low in HT frequencies the longer decay works fine, but midbass is where clarity improves with absorption
if we throw 200 rolls of insulation in your basement we could absorb the midbass in that concrete monster lol
upstairs much better and already treated....why it sounds so dxxx good!
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On 10/7/2018 at 12:03 PM, Kris said:
I ran Audyssey calibration on the RP-250C and RP-450C with no subwoofer present:
RP-250C: Audyssey calibrates to small speaker with crossover of 40Hz.
RP-450C: Audyssey calibrates to full range speaker.This is an unexpected result based on the Klipsch datasheet frequency response specs:
RP-250C: Frequency Response: 60-25kHz +/- 3dB
RP-450C: Frequency Response: 58-25kHz +/- 3dBI need Klipsch to provide their SPL plots for each speaker so I can properly design/chose my system.
Also interesting is that Klipsch has spec'ed the 440WC wireless center channel with lower frequency range than the passive 440C.
RP-440WC: Frequency Response: 48-25kHz
RP-440C: Frequency Response: 59-25kHz +/- 3dBKris
The klipsch response is as posted in their specs. Many have charts available done by individuals that did it on their own.
You cannot design your room to Klipsch specs...you select your speakers based upon your room! Very important difference.
Response is a factor of the room....walls treatment furniture size shape materials etc.
For example my rp160ms play down to 30hz on my walls, yet are not "designed" to do so.
Designs take into account how and where most users will use a speaker. I've told people 50x here to get an rp250c....because it's just fine. 450c has specific applications where it helps or hurts more. But all work in most situations and often klipsch suggests A is for smaller rooms B for medium and C for larger.
In doing so their goal is higher sensitivity to provide higher spl at a given power input. I.e. bigger rooms need more spl...and designers assume few people have bigger more powerful avrs in those rooms.
Generally speaking a larger enclosure allows for deeper frequencies assuming the SAME number of drivers....i.e. a 2cft box with 1 woofer will play lower than a 1cft box with that same woofer. 2 woofers means 2x the volume for the same frequency range. So 4 woofers in a box roughly 2x a box with 2 woofers will have similar response but more spl capability. In this case it is partially mitigated by their desire to also design for less lobing vs pure SPL.
Subwoofer EQ?
in Home Theater
Posted
You definitely want a measurement mic and then you download freeware REW which takes the measurements and is pretty easy.
I use several amps for mains, mbms and subs. They all have peq capability which i find to help in all cases. But the sub eq is critical and really the key element to fixing room issues.
Even if you dont use peq, the crossovers, delay, gain, dynamic eq and other functions all have some potential benefit.
A minidsp for the subs is a great start.