Tizman

I go to audio forums online mostly to learn from others that are more experienced than me, or that have had different experiences than me. Most of my posts, this thread being a noteable exception, are me trying to learn by asking questions. This has served me well. ODS123 is here to pontificate and support his choices. He has no interest in learning anything or changing his mind. Inertia is difficult to overcome, especially when it comes in the form of a $10K+ investment in his system. No amount of coaxing or logic will move him off course. Every amp sounds the same, so buy a $6500 amp when a $500 dollar one sounds the same? Why don’t you try this amp? Not interested, I don’t want to challenge my expensive decisions. The speakers in the ABX test weren’t appropriate and weren’t used correctly. Yes they were. Etc. Etc. Etc. So don’t bother. It’s annoying, and that’s why this thread has so many posts. People see the arrogance and closed mindedness and get annoyed and post responses. Me included.

Including me.

Okay, that does it. I hereby summon Romy the Cat! Everyone prepare for a serious butt kicking...

I'm thinking I'm going to abandon ship on this thread. There's enough good signal among the noise to dissuade anyone new to the hobby from taking the noise seriously. Here are my Cole's Notes: 1. The original test that the OP referred to is flawed in numerous ways, and not to be taken as gospel. 2. MDF vs BB ply? I prefer the BB, but I'm not going to kick a set of La Scala II or Cornwall III out of bed for eating crackers. Also, I would still buy MDF speakers if I liked them, and have in the past, but I don't want to use MDF for DIY. 3. Start with a set of sensitive and, preferably, horn based speakers that don't require 400 Watts a channel to power properly. The more horns, and the least direct radiator speakers, the better. A nice set of Klipsch speakers, of at least 95 DB/W/M sensitivity (more is always better), is my recommendation for anyone starting up. 4. Make up your own mind about what amp and front end you prefer, but starting with the speakers recommended in point 3 will allow you to choose almost any amplifier and get good dynamics and volume. This includes my personal favourite, a SET tube amplifier. A pair of 85 DB/W/M DR speakers, on the other hand, will severely limit your choices. That's it. I'm going to keep my eye on this thread, but unless something really annoying/ludicrous comes up, I'm not going to post anymore. Time to work on the two amps, crossover and two way horn set I have going. Have a Happy New Year!

Yes, and although they are described as near field, it doesn't appear that they were used that way in the test. It's a bit hard to tell from the photos, but it would appear that the listening position is further than what would normally be referred to as near field. Also, the speakers are not toed in in the fashion that I normally associate with near field listening. The distance might be a larger issue though, especially considering the very low sensitivity of these speakers.

These are the speakers used in the original test referred to in the first post. 85 DB/W/M. This is the speaker they chose as a reference point for their ABX? A nearfield studio monitor of abysmal sensitivity? Why? Both amps in the ABX were solid state AB push pull amplifiers with negative feedback. As a SET guy, and I realize that this is my bias, both amps are four kinds of wrong. I would expect far more similarities than differences. Topologies are similar although execution is obviously not. Also, changing everything but the speakers makes this is a dumb ABX test. What are you testing, and what made a difference if it was heard? My bet is that is was the interconnects...

No worries Shakey. It’s all good. To be honest this thread has put me in a place where I’m not exactly the best Tizman I can be. For a little perspective on the OP, check out his previous content. He is consistent. Very consistent. Also, I’ve changed my mind. When I pass away, I want to be buried in an MDF coffin. It takes veneer very, very nicely. The handles can be reinforced with a bit of plywood so that the screws don’t pull out when my hefty carcass is being hauled to its final resting place. Also, I want all my NOS tubes buried with me. I’m pretty sure there are only SET amps in Heaven.

Nah. He seems fine to me.

ClaudeJ1: I wish I had skipped the first part, and went straight to horns 30 years ago.

But not ignorant enough to call someone I don’t know ignorant.

What can I say? I’m ignorant.

Wolfbane: Sounds like you have something to be happy about. I'm happy too.

Hmmmm.

Medium Dodgesity Fibreboard

Probably sounds a bit ruff.

Medium Dogsity Fibreboard.

Not true. Good tube amps are designed to be low distortion devices, and are much lower distortion devices than speakers. One of the things that does create some distortion in tube amps is output transformers. But lets not get into that..

"MDF is disposable garbage" is from a DIY speaker builders perspective. Mine. I have built 2 speakers out of MDF. It was a nightmare compared to plywood.

👀

Dizrotus: Yes of course. Many materials can be used to build speakers. You know this and have built many speakers as a DIY guy. I am also a DIY guy, and I’m old school and build to last. Forever preferably. I avoid materials and components that have a set lifespan or are more fragile. In my amps, that means avoiding electrolytic capacitors for example. Many, if not most, high quality tube amps produced by manufacturers for sale use electrolytics. They are cheaper and smaller. Does that mean that they are the best type to use? No it does not. I think that the tension in this thread is mostly due to members either being DIY guys or not. ODS123 does not appear to be a DIY guy, I am one. He has many choices, and has picked some very nice gear based on his choices, but he really couldn’t have bought a plywood Cornwall new today. As a DIYer, I can, and do, make whatever I want out of whatever materials I want. I have more choices. I can make a 1” BB plywood Cornwall if I want with all the same parts. I can then upgrade the stock crossover with an ALK one, etc. The conversation about MDF vs plywood in this thread really does reflect the tension between people who buy stuff new and those that buy used stuff or DIY. If you are going to buy new, how are you going to buy plywood speakers? On the other hand, if you are a beginner who wants Klipsch, and you don’t have a large budget, you can buy used Klipsch Heritage, which means plywood. The MDF vs plywood conversation is a bit pointless and dumb actually. Entertaining? Perhaps. But not really useful. The all amps sound the same based on THD measurements conversation, on the other hand is worthy of conversation. Just because ODS123’s excellent Mac amp is SS and sounds good, doesn’t mean that you can pick an amp based on low measured THD alone and have good results. This is obvious to me and many many others. Including, for example, Nelson Pass.

People love Jerry Springer too. Controversy with little content keeps me coming back for more. My favourite part of this thread is having a heated debate with lovers of MDF. I had no idea anyone could be so enamoured with pulped wood and resin. Plywood, on the other hand, is dead sexy. I’m going to search the web for some plywood porn now. There’s bound to be some out there...

Ecosystem? Okay.

Two of my sets of Klipsch speakers are made of MDF by the way. One is a pair of bookshelf speakers and a centre channel from early in the HT days. These are in good shape. The other set is a Klipsch Tangent T-500. They required a full reglueing and reinforcement when I got them. There were not dropped, they were just put together poorly out of crappy materials that didn’t stand the test of time. Great drivers though.