ODS123

Not sure what you're saying here but as a starting point I suggest you revisit the def. of a "Straw Man" argument. Your remark doesn't seem to apply.

I think it's ridiculous to eschew tone controls because they damage the signal or they "alter what was intended by the artist" then insist on an amplifier that is basically one BIG tone control, one which affects ALL songs. I will seldom use bass/treble controls, but when I do it's to make an otherwise unlistenable song enjoyable. I Can't imagine ever owning an amp without them, or a mono function. The "purity" argument against them - that their presence audibly damages the signal even when at "0" or defeated - is pure audiophoolery. Ever see a mixing board?? Why doesn't the 500 or so signal breaks on a mixing board turn the signal into something unrecognizable? It doesn't of course. ..Nor does the handful of signal breaks created by adding tone controls. Ask someone who sells ultra-sound, MRI, or CT Scans machines to hospitals if "each additional toggle and switch on those very important and sophisticated devices perceptibly reduces the sharpness of the image or signal?" ..They'll look at you like you're insane.

And how good would your Jubes sound with NON Pass amps/pre and quality cables?? ..Well, RC's $10K Amplifier challenge and the Guadalajara Audio Club A/B test suggests.. about the same. ..just sayin'. As they say - proof is in the pudding (once a modicum of science is applied and biases are reduced/eliminated).

okay... and how good would those Jubes sound w/ non-Pass amps (say, Onkyo AVR) and generic cables?? ..Probably just as good. - just sayin'.

Strawman Alert! ..No one, not me nor anyone else has said "Buy whatever. It all sounds the same anyway." Yet you continue to attribute this to me. Your strategy is pretty clear: It's way easier to assail the words you put in my mouth than those that actually came out of it. As for the other remark regarding boxes... utterly unintelligible. No idea what you're trying to say.

Yes, it does. And when buying a sonos setup people aren't apt to hear nonsense from a salesperson about costly speaker cables, power cords/conditioners, and amps that have a magical topology. ..Or told to give the speakers and/or amp hundreds of hours of break-in time before any "critical listening".

That's ridiculous. ..You express no less self-certainty in your beliefs than do I. From you, and most of the others in this thread, it's "I know the differences exist because I hear them.." and from me it's "you may believe you hear differences but are they real or just imagined?" We are both just as self confident in our positions. ..But one big differences b/w the two, aside from the obvious, is that I attempt to provide to beginners some degree of scientific rigor to support my advice. Advice which is basic, pragmatic, and affordable.

While I am probably a fair bit younger than most of you I have spent many many years immersed in recorded (and live) music. ..I don't see other peoples credentials being challenged.

Couldn't agree more and would urge beginners to give serious thought to this as well. Room setup contributes way more to a system's sound than some faint amplifier nuance that escapes both measurement and repeatable differentiation from other amplifiers. This (very interesting) departure from the amp debate also underscores the need for either tone controls or (better) an equalizer.

yeah, and PWK as well probably.

Doing a DBT w/ pre-amps would be a pretty complicated affair. But considering every modern pre-amp (ie., those being sold today) that I could find on web-retailers has THD <.01% and S/N ratios that exceed our hearing, I'm totally fine with extrapolating the results of the Amplifier challenge to mean that differences b/w pre-amps, if audible at all, are also apt to be so small as to be meaningless. ..But you can draw your own conclusions Personally, I think pre-amps in a 2-channel system are an anachronism. In other words, "why??" When present day integrateds are so quiet, and have such incredible S/N ratios what is achieved by separating power and pre sections? That is, other than potentiating buzz/ hum issues by adding more interconnects, another power cord and possibly another outlet. Yes, i think separate 2-channel pre-amps these days are more or less pointless. And yes, my MDF-edition Cornwall III's are STILL upright and undamaged by rogue moisture. phew!

c'mon dean follow the thread for god sakes. dizman made the comment that "A speaker that makes a crappy recording sound good is not a good speaker." Following that logic, I said that a speaker that make a fatiguing, shrill piccolo sound non-fatiguing is also NOT a good speaker. Follow?

Yes, you will love them... congrats I listened to them before buying my Cornwalls. ..If my room wasn't so large, I'd be an HIII owner for sure. ..They're awesome.

Well, the goal of this hobby is, '''...A lot". There is a delta b/w real and recorded music. Isn't it the goal of hifi to decrease the delta?

elaborate please ..Are you saying no musical instruments can begin to grate or cause fatigue? ..Trumpets, flutes, saxophones, even some string instruments can become fatiguing. Know anyone who plays in an orchestra? ..Ask him/her.

I would agree. And would add that a speaker that makes potentially "fatiguing" instruments sound "never-fatiguing" is also NOT a good speaker. You'll read the comment from some audiophiles that their systems "never cause listener fatigue no matter how long I listen." ..Well, unless you're listening at a whisper volume your speakers aren't doing their job because some instruments, even when played by competent musicians, WILL cause fatigue after a while. ...Just sayin'

tsk, tsk,... you should have held out for the MDF-editions.

Any Speaker company that isn't value-engineering their speakers, for their respective price segments, will not be a speaker company for long.

The motorboard in the picture IS MDF, a variety of MDF that is sandwiched between layers of thin plywood. ..In other shots from the Cornwall (MDF edition) build pictures (can't find the link, but I've looked at it many times) you'll see that ALL of the Cornwall III's walls are constructed of this material as well. ..FWIW, the baffle of Klipsch's highly acclaimed Pro-Series are also made of MDF. ..According to the spec sheets, anyway.

Just did. I would argue that a speaker needs to be braced only to whatever extent necessary to ensure that resonances are not audible while speakers are driven within design limits. Beyond that, add'l bracing is superfluous. PWK must have felt the same b/c NONE of Klipsch's speakers do all that well in "The knuckle test". Knocking on my Paradigm S8s or Vandersteen 3A Sigs sounded like knocking on a cinder block - they were THAT inert. ..And while neither had audible resonances neither do my Cornwall IIIs (MDF edition) which sound a bit like knocking on a cardboard shoe box.

Thank you Dean, I stand corrected. What I should have said is that the "rap" test is an audiophile myth. I have encountered many speakers that fail this rather non-scientific test yet have no audible resonances.

another audiophile myth. I've heard numerous unbraced speakers that did not exhibit audible resonances. ..Including my current CWIII's

My CWIIIs are about 14' apart and I sit facing forward about 16' from each speaker. I've found slight toe-in (12 - 15 degrees I'm guessing) to be the best compromise b/w resolution and soundstage.

I'll add that I did download the Emiliana Torrini Song (Birds) you mentioned and while I did hear the rumbling (which I believe Torrini intended) I did not hear the resonance. I played it three times at increasing volumes and couldn't hear a resonance. Either the Cornwall IIIs don't have this issue, or I'm blessed by exquisite amp/speaker synergy: meaning my McIntosh Integrated exhibits a -7db 150hz drop-off to offset my speakers 150hz +7dB hump.

Been away for weekend, sorry for slow reply. I think I've covered this, no?? Features, build-quality, feel, aesthetics...., etc.. are all good reasons for spending more. Better sound is not. Here's my review of my amp on audioasylum. (under "hifi heretic") https://www.audioasylum.com/messages/amp/180899/review-mcintosh-ma6600-integrated-amplifier-ss I wouldn't change a word if I wrote the review today EXCEPT I would add that the remote absolutely sucks... It has the same feel and build quality as my Verizon top-box remote except it has a rubberized coating which is starting to get sticky and peel. Considering the build quality of the amp I would have expected much better for the remote. Thankfully, Mac has promised me a new much nicer remote once they arrive in April. ..No charge.