ODS123

Exactly... What we snidely call penny-pinching might in fact be a company doing all it can to keep as many people employed as possible, give raises, or maintain 401k contributions.. It's ridiculous the way we sometime denigrate managerial accountants. Klipsch has been making awesome speakers for over 70 years! They've survived several recessions and huge changes in the audio gear landscape so they're doing something right where so many have failed. I say Thank god for the bean-counters. Well if it's correct that the prototype MDF La Scala's were found to sound better (mentioned earlier in thread) AND MDF reduced production costs, then I'd say that is a double win. Heck, it's still a win if they only cost less but sound the same. Yes, ply is a better choice if speakers are constantly being moved from club to club, hung from the ceiling of sports venues or maybe used outdoors.. But for the vast majority of us, our speakers see no more of this sort of frequent moving or exposure to the elements than our turntable, amplifiers or flat-screen TVs.

Again, it's not clear that is the case. MDF is considerably heavier than birch ply. ..So it's predictable the the speakers will be more expensive to ship. Still, even if it was a bean counter victory, is that a bad thing?? The list of speaker companies that folded over the years is almost endless. Thank goodness bean counters have helped Klipsch to survive a very competitive industry.

Well Said... Because I often listen early in the am or late at night I'm forced to keep the volume low. It was surprising that my very expensive Bryston BP pre-amp's channel balance was way off at low volumes. So much so that the amp went back to be adjusted. The good news is that with 25 year warranty, the repair was free; the bad news is they didn't completely fix it. Later on I owned a Peachtree Nova which had precisely the same problem. Unfortunately, it didn't have a balance control. So I was compelled to sell it. Thankfully, my McIntosh doesn't have this problem. ..But neither does my Onkyo AVR, so I don't think one needs to spend heavily to get a more accurate volume control. And couldn't agree more on the inclusion of a mono switch. I just used it yesterday while listening to George Winstons December (Windham Hill Recordings) on vinyl. It's a lovely all-piano recording. For some reason however it was mixed with a rather exaggerated soundstage. It's weird hearing some notes coming entirely from the right speaker and others, further down the keyboard, coming from the other. ..Listening in mono made the recording much more enjoyable. ..Early Beatles too. Though the voices and instruments sound surprisingly lifelike on some early recordings, it's strange having the guitar coming entirely out of one speaker and the voice out of the other. Again, mono solved this. So, to any beginners still reading this thread (a stretch perhaps considering the non-sequiturs and digressions), give serious consideration to buying a pre-amp, integrated amp, or stereo receiver with these controls. Once you have it's unlikely you'll never want to part with them.

As suspected

And yet today they use MDF, so perhaps MDF has changed or their opinion of it. I doubt it's to save cost. Though cheaper per sheet, MDF is considerably heavier hence probably more expensive to ship. My hunch: MDF is less resonant, easier to veneer and more than strong enough for speakers not intended for outdoor use. This is probably why ALL speaker companies I can think of including: Dynaudio, Vandersteen, KEF, PSB, JBL, etc... and so on use MDF rather than ply. The only time a speaker company boasts of using something different, it's some sort of resin. Each of these companies is always looking for some bragging right over a competitor; if a few extra dollars spent on Ply would give them that, they would surely seize it, particularly in their pricier lines were a few extra dollars in material costs is justified if it yields just a few more sales. Yet, the don't , I suspect, b/c it doesn't really offer any advantage for indoor speakers. As for SET amps, as I've already stated. I'll pass, I want a linear amp. If/ when I want to season to taste, I'll use my tone controls, or if need be, get an equalizer. I can appreciate how the glow of the filaments has a seductive quality but the age of tubes has long passed.

Considering PWK's lowly opinion of pricey cables, interconnects and deep skepticism of unsubstantiated claims regarding audible improvements, I suspect he'd blanch at the notion that plywood is audibly better sounding than MDF. ..More durable for road shows and hauling about? Perhaps. ..But better sounding? I doubt it. Which has been my point from all but the beginning of this whole MDF discussion.

Not true. I've had many other amps over the past 30 years. NAD 7250PE; B&K Pro-10mc/202+ pre/amp combo; Bryston BP25/3BSST pre/amp combo; PeachTree NOVA Integrated; NAD 375BEE Integrated, and finally the McIntosh. And several A/V receivers along the way. I've also spent countless hours - usually when researching my next amp purchase - listening to Class A S/S amps and Tube amps, including Conrad Johnson, Cary, McIntosh and Audio Research. Throughout I have found that when I'm not told which is playing, differences b/w amps essentially disappear. The Richard Clark $10,000 Challenge shows that I'm not alone. As for my hearing: It measures very well and I have a keen ear for musical nuance honed from years of playing and enjoying live and often unamplified music. As for "wants to find things online and refer to them here to support his sizeable investment." How exactly? How does telling beginners to "consider allocating most of your system funds toward speakers b/c most evidence suggests that differences b/w modern amps are largely inaudible" support my decision to spend lavishly on an amp??

Do you mind? Sarcasm is fine so long as you're adding SOMETHING audio-related to the discussion. But comments such as this - and those recently from Jason and JimJimbo add precisely zero. I doubt any beginners visiting this thread hoping to better understand the Objectivist and Subjectivist view of audio gear is finding your comments a good refection on the Subjectivist opinion or audiophiles in general. Be snarky if you want, but be pertinent please.

First of all, if tone control and mono switch added distortion to my amp so what? It's Total Harmnonic and Intermodulation Distortion are .005% at full rated power which is well below audibility, which is something like 1%. Ditto for amp and pre-amp section noise, though I don't recall the spec. Secondly, they don't. And this is an important discussion I think for beginners to note. Tizman's contention is based on golden ear audiophiles' claims that the EVERY signal break in the audio signal path adds audible distortion. This is simply not true. Yes, when utilized (ie., not zero'd) they add distortion, but when either set at zero or the tone control defeat switch is set, they do nothing to audibly affect the signal. Case in point, take a look at a mixing board and you'll see hundreds and hundreds of signal breaks. If each audibly affected the signal, the signal would be unrecognizable - there'd be nothing left to the recording. Of course, this isn't so as evidence by the ocean of wonderful sounding songs that were mixed with a mixing board. You can test this myth at home: cut one of your speaker wires into four pieces, then reconnect each piece of wire using a twist nut. Using your balance control (another important feature I'd never go without) switch back and forth b/w left and right channel. Hear a difference? Of course not. Those extra 4 signal breaks are inaudible and immeasurable. Would be true if you added hundreds of such breaks. Tone controls and mono switch are hugely helpful in improving some recordings. I usually leave mine off but every once in a while they help to make an unlistenable song enjoyable. Yes, when engaged Tone controls work by adding distortion. But they can be left at zero when not needed. Most tube amps, by comparison, ALWAYS add distortion, whether you want it or not for a given song. It's interesting you'd criticize a feature that allows distortion for certain situations but are fine with an amp design that adds distortion always.

I disagree - MDF doesn't cost less to build and ship. To build, maybe, but not to ship as MDF is considerably heavier. ..And probably harder on tools as well. MDF is used b/c it's density and surface is more consistent sheet-to-sheet, easier to shape, splinters far less while being cut and easier to cut. Klipsch uses Ply in their Pro series b/c those speakers are intended for places where they are suspended/ mounted thus requiring anchors which are more reliable in ply than MDF. From the KI-396 SMAII data sheet. These speakers are intended for: • Performing Spaces • Auditoriums and Houses of Worship • Bars and Music Clubs • Small/medium Sports Facilities • Theme Parks and Leisure Venues • Transportation Facilities Given your antipathy for MDF, which Klipsch uses for EVERY speaker line except the one you happen to own, then why spend so much time on this site? It's seems a bit ungracious to take up residence on Klipsch's user forum then endless trash their construction materials. And don't say I've done same. Most everything I've said has come directly from Klipsch's data sheets (eg. comments regarding materials, intended environment and limited F/R). Yes, in the other thread I did intimate that the Pro series may not be intended for as discriminating a listener (an inference I drew from it's intended application) but I quickly acquiesced when BH corrected me. I wonder how he feels about you endless trashing EVERY one of their current speaker lines but Pro Series.

My Mac is total overkill, I'll grant you that. ..In much the same way that a Ulysse Nardin watch is overkill; sure it's accurate but an equally accurate watch could be had for a LOT less. And I don't understand why you think enjoying tone controls, mono switch, and input leveling are fetishistic. ..How boring a fetish if they were No thanks to tubes. If I want to add coloration/distortion, I'll get an equalizer so it can be easily defeated when not in use.

Ki- 396 SMA II and others in the series.. I hope that doesn't change your opinion of them...

Those pictures are absurd. ..Do you buy your cd players, amps, and A/V processors on the basis of which can best take a punch As I said, I've had many many speakers over the years and NONE have sustained that kind of damage. Speakers that aren't being boxed and handled by roadies on a nightly basis don't need to be build with plywood. ..Most speakers are just fine /w MDF. ..Just as used by all the best speaker companies in the world when building speakers for home use.

Yet Klipsch uses MDF for the motorboards - which is where the important screws are utilized - of their Pro speakers, so go figure. ..So why haven't ANY of my aforementioned previous speakers fallen apart?? ..30 years, 10 different brands, and 0 self-destructions. ..why I wonder?

Thanks but I'm not particularly interested in SET amps. Though I don't believe that differences b/w modern day amps that are engineered to be linear are audible (which is to say pretty much ALL amps) I still have my reasons for buying the McIntosh. And yes, it's overkill for the CW's, but it wasn't for the Paradigm Signature S8 v2.s that I owned when I purchased it. My reasons: I've wanted one since I was a kid; I love the look, the feel, and tactile enjoyment of Mac gear; Input matching. ..I hate the huge volume swings when switching from one source to another (e.g, music server to TV); I absolutely insist on having tone controls. I'd rather adjust a songs tonal balance than never listen to it b/c it's overly bright, etc.. Golden ear audiophiles position on Tone controls (ie., they should be avoided) is, IMHO, absolutely ridiculous. I won't own an amp w/out again. I absolutely insist on ability to switch to Mono. So many early stereo recordings (eg., early Beatles) have very gimmicky stereo effects; I like the wattage meters. Though not important with the CW III's, with my Paradigms it was reassuring to know I wasn't nearing their input limits The MA6600 is dead silent. Even with the 103 db efficient CW's I don't hear ANY hiss b/w songs or with the source paused. I often need to listen at quiet levels. Unlike the Bryston and Peach tree amps I owned before it, my MA6600 keeps each channel in perfect balance all the way to full attenuation. I love the tactile feel of operating it (did I mention that? ..oops I think I did ). I wouldn't object to owning a Mac Tube amp but they are so linear that I don't think I or anyone here could reliably distinguish it from my S/S integrated. ..So why bother changing.

Again, insisting on plywood construction is insisting on a solution in search of a problem. Over the the last 30 years I have had Polk Audio 5jrs, Spica TC-50's, PSB Alpha A/V's, PSB Stratus Minis, Vandersteen 3A Sigs, Paradigm S8 v2's, and now Klipsch Cornwall iii's. All made from MDF and all dent and water-damage free. I treat my speakers like I do my electronic components. ..Keep them well away from water and avoid dropping them. If I should ever chose speakers that are apt to be boxed and hauled by roadies, I may change my opinion. ..But for now, I think MDF is a better choice for home speaker construction.

No worries then as I have no plans on using my Cornwalls as PA speakers; a purpose for which they were never intended.

Yes, well I have no greater need for my speakers to hold up to frequent handling, and possible dropping, than my components. ..I've had 10 pairs of speakers over the last 30 years, all made of MDF, and NONE was ever dropped on a corner. ..So i'm not sure what advantages plywood construction would have accrued to me or pretty much anyone I know.

Long lasting cabinet? ..I have 25 year old MDF speakers that look brand new. And there is no greater need for these, or any home/ studio speakers to be moisture resistant than the there is for the amplifiers and components that drive them. ..Sounds like you're suggesting a solution that is in search of a problem.

Ease of construction makes sense as MDF is far more consistent from sheet to sheet, and much easier to get a clean splinterless edge. ..But not cost. MDF is way heavier hence more expensive to ship. I would agree that ply is perhaps more durable in those cases where speakers are constantly moved - such is not the case of course w/ home or studio speakers.

Explain why so many of the best speakers in the world have cabinets constructed of MDF. ..And if it's heavy enough to give a backache than it's probably NOT cheaper as the added cost to ship certainly cancels out any production cost savings. ..So, again, please explain.

MDF is a better material b/c it's less resonant.. Hence, it's used throughout Klipsch's line, including the motorboards of it's Pro Series. Not sure where you're getting your info. Vandersteen, KEF, Legacy, Dynaudio, etc. etc. etc.. ALL use MDF for their top of line speakers. Hard to imagine they chose MDF over birch plywood for the purposes of saving MAYBE a few dollars in material cost. I say MAYBE b/c the material cost savings is probably erased by the greater cost of shipping speakers made of MDF b/c they are MUCH heavier. ..In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised if MDF was actually a more costly material. Also, i DON'T think their Pro Series stinks. ..Not at all. You're just annoyed b/c I refuse to take your word for it that their Pro series sounds better in ALL listening environments - including a small home listening rooms - something which they clearly were NOT engineered for.

If it were me I'd tell the dealer that my placing an order for the speakers is predicated on being allowed to hook up and confirm my AVR can drive them. ..It's hard imagining a "no" to that. The Cornwalls are very easy speakers to drive cleanly. It's hard imagining that your AVR won't be able to cut it.

I strongly and respectfully disagree w/JohnA. I don't think there would be ANY problem with a room that size. ..My room is larger and my cornwalls can play to crazy ear-bleed levels without any hint of strain AND the wattage meters on my amp barely crest 10 watts. So No need for gobs of power. Heck, the CW's will sound great with an inexpensive A/V receiver in stereo mode. I did exactly that while my primary integrated was being serviced and the speakers still sounded fabulous. ..Prove this to yourself. Bring your A/V receive to the dealer and ask him/ her to hook them up. You'll agree I think. Edited: added pic. As seen in the attached pic my room is about 18' wide. ..And it's twice as deep. Plus, 10' vaulted ceiling. Mele Kalikimaka! (I grew up in Hawaii. ..Lovely place to spend Christmas!).

Listening matters a great deal. ..And even more when you don't know which amp your hearing. ..Otherwise, seeing the Tube amp with it's alluring glow is apt to sound warm; and the black S/S amp with it's hard metal faceplate and it's thin white lettering (think Bryston) is apt to sound "clinical and sterile.".. ..Or maybe recalling a review about a particular amp, or it's reputation from a web forum. Yep, listening is everything - particularly when you take steps to control biases.