ODS123
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Posts posted by ODS123
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12 minutes ago, mayo said:
Not sure the offer comes with a rain check, though, especially after we move in and she's looking to add new furniture and decor.
Stay the course... To optimize that room you may need to add a rug here or there and maybe a few well placed wall hangings. ..But there's no reason why it can't work.
Keep the music where all can hear it...
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9 minutes ago, mayo said:
Not sure the offer comes with a rain check, though, especially after we move in and she's looking to add new furniture and decor.
Stay the course... To optimize that room you may need to add a rug here or there and maybe a few well placed wall hangings. ..But there's no reason why it can't work.
Keep the music where all can hear it...
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2 hours ago, Dave A said:
On the CW4 there are cabinet braces front to back in two places and the big box sounding thing is gone. Those new ports are radiused inside and out I believe. Really an entirely different animal than CW 1,2 and 3 except for the basic box size.
Pretty sure the CW3 had front-to-back bracing in two places as well....
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As I see it, music is best as a shared experience. ...We have our system (Cornwall iii's) in our great room and wouldn't have it any other way. ..My wife and I raised our kids listening to our music as we listened to theirs. ..Through ups and downs, we had our music to keep us close by giving us a common denominator. ..And we always tried to be positive about whatever they were into - which was not always easy.
Today, they love Leonard Cohen, The Clash, Bob Dylan, Richard Thompson, Carly Simon, Wilco, Pink Floyd, etc.. And my wife and I love White Stripes, Black Keys, Imagine Dragons, Taylor Swift, etc..
Would my system sound better in a dedicated 2-channel room? Perhaps. But the music wouldn't have been nearly as enjoyable.
Our great room has very similar shape/ dimensions. ..Walls not quite as yellow as they appear. ..Couch is 12' from of cabinet, then 20'' of kitchen.
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IMHO, the fact that these debates keep coming up should force those who believe the "lies" listed by Aczel to confront this inescapable truth:
If there ARE audible differences b/w amplifiers, cables, DAC's, etc..., those differences are very very small. Otherwise, why is their very existence even debated?
I've said it before, I'll say it again... At least 95% (probably more like 99%) of how a system sounds is a function of speakers and room acoustics.
Unfortunately, there's an entire industry of gear manufacturers and retailers, etc who are gaslighting us into believing differently. And I very much believe PWK would wholeheartedly agree with this statement.
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I pretty much agree with it all....
...But that follows naturally from the fact that I'm a big believer in the scientific method and evidence-based thinking. ..But hey, that's just me. (or maybe not).
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When I read of someone doing something like this I'm reminded of my wonderful wife and her habit of tweaking EVERY cooking recipe she's ever followed. I don't tease her about it but it's clear that it's her way of taking credit for how a dish - that is 99.999% someone else's - turned out. ..She add's a small dash of this, a sprig of that - two additions that probably aren't noticeable - but she does anyway so that she can tell people, "yes, it's a recipe but I improved it quite a bit.."
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4 hours ago, Ceptorman said:
Very nice room.
Buddy Holly.....greatest American rocker!
Such an incredible body of work for a recording career that barely spanned 2 years. ..To think of what more he might have created. True Love Ways brings tears to my eyes whenever I listen to it, which is at least once a week.
Oh, and that style of his. The original nerdy but cool rock & roller.. And it wasn't calculated or forced. ..Just him being him.
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3 minutes ago, Schu said:
what do they call that wall color...
It's called Mywifepickedit Yellow - available at any MAB Store.
Letting my wife pick the color was a small concession for being able to have coffin sized speakers in our family room. Our friends can't believe she allows it. But she knew when she "said yes" that I was very much into music and that I planned on having big speakers in whatever room we spend the most time.
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New Buddy for my Cornwall...
On a lark I sent a pic to Legendary Wall Art to see if they could turn a small 300 kb screen grab into something to take up wall space where all my CD's use to be stored on shelves. ...I couldn't be happier with the result. What do you think? ..Cost $179 and took less than a week to receive it. Btw, in this pic the chairs/ and table are much closer to the speaker than they usually are. I just touched up the wall and hastily arranged the furniture.
From their website:
https://legendarywallart.net
"All canvases are stretched over wood frames with solid backing and are ready to hang....
100% Pine Wood Handmade Frames
Museum Quality Canvas Material (390 Grams/Square meter poly cotton fabric)
Black Coated Metal Hooks. All prints come ready to hang.
Reinforced backing on all prints so that your print never sags. NEVER."-
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On 3/11/2021 at 5:18 PM, Brian Tambe said:
Please comment on this thread your opinion of “ The Rippingtons “
I dig them! ..Will listen to more of their (his) discography over the coming weeks
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I'm loving seeing these pics of these vintage receivers!!! Replete with all sorts of buttons, switches and knobs to help us enjoy our music more.
Alas, the audio industry has hoodwinked us into believing that nowadays Mode (stereo/mono), bass/treble, Loudness controls, etc... are by necessity mid-fi and have no place in a REAL high-end integrated amp or pre-amplifier. So they have all but disappeared. This, IHMO, is nonsense. They help us enjoy less-than-perfect music and should be commonplace. Nowadays, only Luxman, Accuphase, McIntosh, and 1-2 others offer these features. ..And only Mac offers and onboard tuner to make a modern day receiver.
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Everything from The Sonics to Pete Seeger to Nina Simone...
I'm looking forward to checking out The Rippingtons... Will give them a listen later today.
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34 minutes ago, mdm7eb said:
So sorry to the OP about derailing your thread (I hope you have found the discussion, while not on topic, interesting).
With all due respect, I don’t think The thread has been derailed. I think this discussion and certainly your posts are very relevant.
We have given the OP good reasons for skepticism about expecting to hear big differences between different amplifiers. He may not be convinced by it, but at least he’s been exposed to the discussion. If I were him and new to this hobby, I would appreciate hearing these views.
And I agree that there are still many important differences between modern day amplifiers, I just don’t happen to believe that sound quality is one of them.
I have enjoyed your posts… And certainly shakydeals too. Even if the OP has left the discussion, others reading this thread and maybe learning something from it.
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2 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:
According to this thread, you may as well have bought a 99.00 receiver from a Big Box store.Sorry, but that could well be true - especially if the OP's ONLY criteria is sound. ..But there ARE other considerations: Power output, tactile build quality, fit & finish, feature-set, etc...
For years there have been endless debates over the audibility of differences b/w audio amplifiers that are engineered to be linear. To wit: on the internet you'll find numerous listening experiments of audio clubs where members have participated in ABX (blinded) tests in an attempt to settle this debate. There's also the famous Richard Clark $10,000 challenge which offered anyone $10k if they could reliability (ie., more often than mere chance) distinguish two amplifiers. No one ever claimed the money.
Does this prove there are no two amplifiers that can be distinguished? No, of course not. ..To do that you'd have to get EVERY human to compare EVERY amplifier. ..Won't happen.
What it DOES prove, IMHO, is that the differences b/w amplifiers - IF they exist at all - are apt to be very very very small. Much smaller than suggested by the hyperbole you'll read on web-forums. Comments like "Pioneer AVR's make my ears bleed!" are utterly ridiculous and maddening because they hurt this hobby. Unfortunately, audio dealers can't be expected to spread the truth because they MUST sell more to customers than just a pair of new speakers. They need to sell amps, cd players, DACs, cables, etc.. too to survive. And speaker companies can't be expected to spread the truth either because they NEED their network of sellers to survive.
IMHO >95% of how a system sounds is determined by speakers and room acoustics. ..All of the other stuff - amp choice/ DAC/ interconnects and speaker cables (please!)/ power cords (double-please!!) - matter very little. Turntables are a notable exception b/c they are highly mechanical which accounts for all-important speed accuracy/stability AND noise (rumble). But even where they are concerned, once a certain degree of measureable achievement is reached, differences b/w them become small, if detectable at all.
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1 hour ago, mdm7eb said:
I have McIntosh for many of the same reasons (my dad gave me a MC240 and MX110 so I also had that going for me). When I became tired of fussing with the MX110 (and I wanted to try something a bit different) I bought a used C41 from Audio Classics, in large part because of the tone controls, loudness, mono, etc. features you can't find on a lot of other gear. The C41 is also one of the last all analog preamps McIntosh made before switching to preamps with digital (dacs etc.) built in. I am an old soul in way that likes engaging in the old ways of music reproduction (if I had a land line, I would have a rotary phone).
All great points... And maybe something the OP can benefit from in his/her search for an appropriate amp to drive his Cornwalls.
I love the look of the C41. ..I strongly dislike Mac's more recent move away from mounting single purpose knobs and switches on the faceplate in favor of single a push/scroll knob. Operating a Pre-amp such as yours is much more enjoyable than scrolling through menus to find bass/treble/balance and Mono. Still, at least my Int. amp has those. Plus, I do like being able to volume match all of my inputs. Anyway... great food for thought for the OP.
here's a pic of my Amp beside my CWIII's
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22 minutes ago, mdm7eb said:
I will note, I have a McIntosh tube amp and solid state preamp. They cost multiples of electronics that are equally technical competent. Why do I have them then? Is it irrational on my part? That would be the case if I truly believed is was purely for sonic reasons and not those of aesthetics, build quality, prestige, and in my case also nostalgia (for the tube amp anyways). All of these reasons also effect my perception of sound, and I probably believe my McIntosh gear does sound better (when in reality, I probably can't tell the difference). The important point though is, they make me happy -- which is beyond the limit of science (at least in my view) and that to me is what really matters.
Much to like about your post. Thanks for "entering the fray".
I too am a devotee of McIntosh gear. But do I believe that it sounds better than other modern day amps that are similarly engineered to be linear when driven w/in their limits - even ones without autoformers? ..Nope, I don't. And I have carefully compared it to my Bryston, Peach-Tree, NAD, even a $140 DaytonAudio amplifier from PartsExpress.
So why spend so much on a Mac integrated? I love Mac gear for many of the reasons you mention. I love how it looks, the wattage meters, the tactile experience operating it; build-quality, fit & finish, heritage, and the fact that it is built (assembled really, as many parts probably come from elsewhere, incl overseas which I'm fine with me) in a small upstate NY town, etc... But perhaps most of all, I LOVE that they still see the merit in retaining Bass/ Treble, and Mono controls - items which have all but disappeared these days (except Luxman, Accuphase, and Esoteric).... Items I use on the fly (versus room correction) to make the not-so-rare poorly recorded song sound better.
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4 hours ago, Fido said:
So does that mean that the Cornwall IVs do not sound better than the Cornwall iiis? I don’t understand why people that own the previous versions of a speaker seem offended if anyone buys a newer version and wants to think their previous version was the best ever. I had the original Forte 1s and they sounded good but I would be lying if I said the Forte IVs do not sound much better to my ears. I have zero doubt that the Forte Vs might sound much better than the Forte IVs.
About amps? My Primaluna Evo 400 sounds totally different than the amp in my Yamaha AVR and totally different than my hybrid McIntosh ma252. Not claiming one is better but they clearly do not sound exactly the same.
I am saying that there is this inclination - on the part of the manufacture and owners - to exaggerate the significance of differences between a new and previous generation of speaker. My assertion is that the differences are in truth very small - so small that they may not even be discernible when blinded . This is especially true nowadays when there has not really been any new advancements in speaker technology. Computers and anechoic Chambers were available and in use during the development of all of Klipsch’s speakers of the last several decades. So too were the foundational engineering concepts. I might be inclined to believe that the differences between a Cornwall I and a Cornwall IV are quite audible, but I am disinclined to believe that they are between III and IV. Klipsch needs to refresh their products – nothing wrong with that. And nothing wrong with identifying improvements. That is marketing. But whether they are truly audible or not is a different matter.And no, I don’t believe your Yamaha AVR sounds different from your McIntosh. I trust you when you say you believe they do! But that doesn’t mean in actual fact that you could tell differences when blinded.. I have a McIntosh MA6600 Integrated amp. And it sounds no different when driving my Cornwall IIIs than my Onkyo AVR.
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3 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:
I’ve seen many negative comments about the IIIs. I’ve yet to see even one about the IVs.
You will just as soon as the Cornwall V's are announced. ..So it goes in audio.
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1 minute ago, Shakeydeal said:
I never said it was a "huge" improvement. I only cited the feedback I have read. The III is the only version of the CW I haven't heard. It may sound fine, but for another grand, I'd opt for the newer version.
And yes, any amp will drive them. But the question must be, do you want sound or do you want music?
Shakey
Amps that are engineered to be linear (most are - except for boutique tube amps) will sound pretty much the same. Sound vs Music?
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I have Corwnall III's and have not heard any cabinet resonances. And I have excellent hearing and a very keen sense for musical nuances.
Go and listen to them yourself and make your own determination. The Cornwall III's are fantastic speakers which (should this matter, probably shouldn't) had plenty of glowing reviews when they were introduced. I wouldn't rely too much on what you read here about III vs. IV. ..It's predictable that whoever has the lastest generation of a speaker will claim HUGE improvement over the previous. As if to suggest that Klipsch was an incompetent speaker company when they engineered the previous version, and suddenly got smart just in time to engineer the latest. Ugh.
As for driving them... ANY modern day amplifier/receiver/integrated will find the CW III's to be a very easy speaker to drive. ..The wattage meters on my Integrated rarely exceed 5 watts - and at that level is beyond loud enough to cause hearing damage.
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I would not let what you read about the F4's give you doubts about your F3's... ..If you're so concerned, see if your dealer will allow you to bring your F3's to the store to compare them to the F4's (side-by-side, volumes carefully matched). Chances are, you will find the improvements that people go on and on about will in reality be very very subtle.
EVERY speaker I've ever owned was described as being vastly superior to the previous generation and vastly inferior to the next. Yet, in EVERY case where I was able to directly compare one generation to the next (side-by-side, volumes carefully matched), the differences ended up being very very subtle - so subtle that in some cases you'd be hard pressed to distinguish them while blinded. This was true even in cases where the cabinet was re-braced and EVERY driver was supposedly upgraded and improved. And when a difference was heard, it wasn't necessarily an improvement.
So enjoy your Forte III's. ...They're great speakers. ..And stop being overly influenced by the gushing of those who bought the latest “new and improved” version.
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9 minutes ago, Pondoro said:
At last real data. I was sure that flexible rubber, plastic, Kevlar, paper, etc. would break in but I am surprised how long the changes continue. My experience with metal suggests that vibrating metal will not break in.
Real data, perhaps, but relevant? Are these changes audible when the listener is not aware of which he/she is hearing?? That is the question that matters (IMHO).
Again, ANYONE can test the audibility of break-in by simply playing one of their new speakers for 1-2 days, push it next to the other - then switch b/w the two while playing mono music.
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1 hour ago, Shakeydeal said:
You have keyed in on a most important point. Since everyone hears differently, nothing will sound exactly the same to any two people. Which is why it's ridiculous for anyone to say there are NO differences between this thing or the other thing. And we don't listen to measurements, so shouldn't our ears be the final arbiter?
The bottom line is this. If standing on my head while facing a northeasterly direction makes my system sound better to me, then it IS indeed an improvement.
Shakey
So you have NO interest in distinguishing REAL audible differences from those created by expectation bias? Well, you and I could not be more different in that regard.
My wife and I have a combined 30 years in the pharma industry. Thankfully, there is an entire paradigm for separating real from imagined efficacy differences b/w medications seeking FDA approval. Some would find it surprising that something like 30% of patients who take a placebo experience a significant reduction in pain after experiencing a strain/sprain or contusion. No harm, no foul if the placebo is cheap and safe. ...But in the audio world, the parallel could be spending thousands of dollars on a DAC that is indistinguishable from a $50 one from parts express.
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Cornwall IV
in General Klipsch Info
Posted
Yep.. they're there. ..A bit more like 9:30 and 2:30 and a bit closer to the side walls, but they're there.
I also recall seeing them in pictures from the CW iii production line.
The bracing in both of these speakers is far from exotic; appears to be just a 2x4". ...And having rapped on both the CW3 and CW4, neither cabinet sounds particularly inert - indeed, BOTH sound like hollow shoe boxes.
By comparison, the bracing in my previous Paradigm S8v2's was a work of art. ..And knocking on it sounded like knocking on a cinder block. Ditto my Vandersteen 3A Sigs.. ..That notwithstanding, I prefer the sound of the Cornwalls to both the Paradigm's and Vandy's, despite the fact that the cabinets sound rather hollow when you knock on them. It's how they sound when playing music that matters. Perhaps Klipsch understands that speaker cabinets that are as solid as a vault are not entirely necessary from a music-playback standpoint.